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Excellent doctrinal evaluation of the spiritual gifts ES.
Yeah, I have to say that I did a double take when I read this thread and compared it to it's author. Enough that I had to go back to ensure the name was spelled correctly and not just a troll. Pretty crazy, but I guess stuff like this happens on message boards.
Excellent doctrinal evaluation of the spiritual gifts ES.
See i knew the usual suspects would come out and say something like this. I took the decision to post it anyways because i felt i needed an awnser to my confusion in christian faith.
I know you're genuinely surprised that some christians have a foul sense of humor and curse, instead of you're just beside yourself right now and you feel like you have to get a rise out of me. I mean, this is america with 80 percent professed christians, and Cry Havoc probably has never played any sports nor ever encountered any such kind of phenomena. Does that make me justified, no. I know what i'm doing, and i chose this bad behaviour because i don't see myself as a Walking Jesus Billboard, My faith is personal, and i try not to convert anyone in life or the message boards, nor do i seek a pastoral or other ministry. I feel like my christianity is personal, and i try not to front it out.
Having said that, this is a political message board and sometimes religion is discussed. i thought it would be proper to include a thread on religion, and deal with the consequences.
So to awnser your doubts, I am christian, but my weakness in my faith is my playful and mischeivious disposition. I know i say curse words, and derogatory remarks, but that is something i have to refrain.
Now having said that, you can call me a hypocrite or whatever. I never told you where to go pray or anything, so i don't feel bothered by it.
Now I can't say anything, given my problems with conceit, among other things, but...
Jesus is Ronald Reagan..
no seriously, i see your point, or rather Jesus's point.
I can agree with most of Extra Stout's viewpoints. I would add that I generally feel disturbed by congregations that over-emphasize certain Spiritual gifts (the gifts of 'prophecy' and 'tongues' specifically) to the point where they teach that the practice of those gifts is a requirement for someone to become spiritually connected with GOD. This doctrine is not supported by the scriptures. In fact, Paul begins his admonition (of the Church of Corinth) by stating that Jesus himself endowed diferent members of the church with different gifts; all for the edification of the Church. So why would anyone teach that certain gifts are a requirement? Why would anyone cling to the hope of attaining a gift he/she wasn't given instead of embracing and using the ones that he/she was?
I once heard a charismatic pastor bash Rev. Billy Graham because he believed Graham wasn't a 'spirit-filled' christian (he equated the 'ability' to speak in tongues as being spirit filled). I was apalled to say the least. IMO Billy Graham took his primary Spiritual gift (the gift of evangelism) as far as his body could handle it, for as long as he could. I believe Graham fulfilled GOD's purpose for his life much better than many of us do - and he never once boasted about it; he just went out and preached the gospel.
Another thing that doesn't sit well with me is the fact that some churches try to 'teach' the gift tongues. In reading 1st Corinthians Chapters 12-14; even though I acknowledge the existence of those gifts (understanding their historical relevance to the rise of the early church - I'll expound on this later); I'm not too sure that 'tongues' are something anyone can teach. If those gifts come from the Holy Spirit; it is the Holy Spirit which bestows the gift (learning how to speak them comes pre-packaged with the gift itself; IMO the ability to break out in tongues is instantaneous). Even in the context of a 'personal prayer language,' Romans 8:26 hints that some of these 'utterances' are manifestations of the Holy Spirit working through us.
Something else, I'm not necessarily going to criticize the practice moreso than question its basis. When people fall over, or speak in an trance like state, or roll all over the ground - why must we necessarily lump all those events as being in the 'signs and wonders' category - those that the scripture says the Holy Spirit can do through us? For that matter, why would anyone be transfixed in some 'out-of-body' state? Paul clearly states that we should be 'fully conscious' of our speech. Like ES hinted, be wary of demonic forces which also manifest themselves in the spiritual realm, some perhaps mimicking what we believe may be the work of the Holy Spirit. The church must remain vigilant and discern such acts according to the scriptures.
As for the historical relevance of the gift of 'prophecy' the early church did not have the same luxury with regards to the written Word that we do. The biblical canon was not neatly compiled for everyone to read; in fact, the Word was still being inspired. The gift of 'Prophecy' hence, was required so that the Holy Spirit could guide the Church in those days. Be wary of people that approach you or anyone else claiming that they know your future, or events from your past that only you could know. Didn't Paul cast out 'fortune-telling' demons from a young slave girl in Philippi? Prophecy was given so that we could understanding GOD's will for our lives. Much of that guidance however is already at our disposal if we would just read the Scriptures as we were instructed to do.
I believe these gifts do still exist; that the temporal context of their cessation refers to time not yet upon us. I also believe that those gifts are much rarer than we are led to believe; I don't believe that everyone who claims to possess them actually does. But like ES mentioned, and Paul stated, we should press on to focus on the eternal gifts; specifically LOVE and it's many attributes.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 08-16-2008 at 07:23 PM.
I'm not a Christian, though I was raised Catholic. I guess I would count my spiritual leaders as people like Montaigne, Giordano Bruno, Socrates, etc.-- more philosophers than holy men. But I've always had great friends in my life who've been religious-- currently one is a Methodist Pastor, and another is a practicing Jehovah's Witness, as is her entire family. So I just wanted to say that I admire and support you guys for coming on here and talking about these issues, especially knowing it might not necessarily be a popular thread. I may not agree with many things that you believe, but the whole point of this country and decent humanity in general is to allow difficult discussion to flourish and to allow us all to follow the many diverse paths that attract us.
For myself, I just know that avoiding friendships with people who are religious would lower the quality of my life, not raise it. In theory, it sometimes seems that surrounding one's self with those that think similarly would make life easy, but in practice I've found it almost inevitably makes life more restrictive, and less enjoyable.
:thumbsup
What, exactly, did I say that was "to get a rise" out of you? Did I criticize you? Did I attack you or state that I could not believe you are a Christian? I certainly never called you a hypocrite (that goes without saying, as every person I've ever met is a hypocrite). 80% of America might "profess" the name of God, but that is a huge difference between saying, "Yeah I believe in a God." and accepting Jesus.
I simply stated that I was surprised that after your numerous inflammatory, profanity-laden posts that suddenly you wanted to talk about the Man who stepped out on water and said, "Follow me." Perhaps you feel the need to defend yourself from me because of our other disagreements. On the other hand, might it be that you feel a little conviction? If you're really cleaning up your act, then you have my full support.
And I should echo what Extra Stout quoted from the Bible. Being a quiet Christian within the bounds of your safety zone is easy. I mean, it must be nice to know that you're living your days out waiting for the Rapture, right? But of all the things Christianity is, the last thing I would ever place upon it is being easy. It is a faith that forces you to acknowledge how imperfect you are every day of your life, and realize that someone died for you when He didn't have to. Among a thousand other things. Christian means, "Like Christ." And Jesus certainly didn't take the easy road for any part of the journey through life.
I'll post more later, as for now I must leave for a time.
I'm not calling you a hypocrite--not exactly. I'm just shocked to find out that you're a Christian. I would have never guessed it by your prior posts. But, if you're trying to change as this thread indicates, I support you 100%.
A sincere and contrite confession of our shortcomings personifies the quality of humility, overtly exhibited by Christ throughout his ministry.
Humility is at war with pride, and fighting that battle is perhaps the single most important element in the initiation of establishing a life changing relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and also in moving forward into effective servitude for and with Him.
Good stuff there GTown.
Regarding the gifts, I don't believe in their cessation. I'm a believer, because of a personal experience, in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the life of believers through what's referred to in the Bible in the following way; “If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. <John 7>
Many services I had attended gave altar calls for salvation and often invitations to receive the Holy Spirit. I felt like that's what I wanted so I went up on more than a few occasions but without results. During one invitation for this I didn't go up, instead in my mind I made the prayer "God, if you want me to receive this gift, have someone ask me to go up to receive it", and within a few seconds, a church tapped me on the shoulder and said to me "it's time".
I'll leave the rest of that experience to the imiagination of interested readers as I don't believe there is any particular formula to be followed for this to happen, rather it's a personal, sacred rendezvous between a "thirsty" man and his Creator.
In my own Church (A/G) we have what may be referred to as "words of knowledge". Many of them seem to me to be mini-sermons, replete with a few general exhortations, ending with a "Thus saith the Lord". That bothers me, because If God directly uses someone as a conduit for his spoken work, I expect to hear something that raises the hair on my head, or is accented with peals of thunder (even though it's sunny outside), but I'm probably expecting too much.
Not wanting to appear as being to cynical, God can and does speak to us through others, and it can be in many forms, such as rebuke, exhortation, encouragement (of course, that with long-suffering and doctrine), etc.
Regarding "generic/general" words of knowledge, what may be interpreted by me as such, could very well be exactly what someone else needs to hear.
And that ends my random rambling for the day, Amen.
Tongue speakers are fake, and creep me out!
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