McCain hits a home run

[2centsworth]

Whott,

You must read "The End of Food", by Paul Roberts
http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/...EndOfFood.html

[fyatuk]

Start a thread showing a breakdown of how exactly McCain is going to get 270 electoral votes. Thanks.

Why would such a thing be necessary. We can pretty much say McCain starts out with 223, Obama 239 just based on states that don't really change (some get close, but rarely flip).

It's all going to come down to who gets Florida and Ohio again. McCain will take Florida since it's gone Republican the last two times, and McCain actually has some appeal with much of the Dems voter block there (retired people).

That leaves Ohio, which also has gone Republican the last couple times. Bush was Ohio by 3.5% in 2000 and 2% (with a majority) in 2004. Ohio will once again be completely innundated with political ads and will be THE battleground state. If McCain carries it as well as Florida (like he probably will), the rest of the swing states are meaningless because that gives him 270.

For the record, I predict a final tally of McCain 286, Obama 252.

[whottt]

When in doubt...find an honest doctor, who just so happens to be a politician...so how about Ron Paul:


In the days before Medicare and Medicaid, the poor and elderly were admitted to hospitals at the same rate they are now, and received good care. Before those programs came into existence, every physician understood that he or she had a responsibility towards the less fortunate and free medical care was the norm. Hardly anyone is aware of this today, since it doesn't fit into the typical, by the script story of government rescuing us from a predatory private sector.
Source: The Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul, p. 84 Apr 1, 2008

Private medical savings accounts, not government meddling
The most obvious way to break this cycle is to get the government out of the business of meddling in health care, which was far more affordable and accessible before government got involved. Short of that, and more politically feasible in the immediate run, is to allow consumers and their doctors to pull themselves out of the system through medical savings accounts.
Source: The Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul, p. 89 Apr 1, 2008

Insurance companies & gov't make healthcare unaffordable
Q: You say that insurance companies and government programs have made health care simply unaffordable. You objected so strongly to Medicaid that, as a doctor, I'm told, you simply treated patients on your own, at your own expense.
A: Well, we've had managed care, now, for about 35 years. It's not working, and nobody's happy with it. The doctors aren't happy. The patients aren't happy. Nobody seems to be happy--except the corporations, the drug companies and the HMOs.

Source: 2007 GOP primary debate in Orlando, Florida Oct 21, 2007


Socialized medicine won't work; nor managed care
You don't have to throw anybody out in the street, but long term you have move toward the marketplace. You cannot expect socialized medicine of the Hillary brand to work. And you can't expect the managed care system that we have today [to work, because it] promotes and rewards the corporations. It's the drug companies & the HMOs & even the AMA that lobbies us for this managed care, and that's why the prices are high. It's only in medicine that technology has raised prices rather than lowering prices.
Source: 2007 GOP primary debate in Orlando, Florida Oct 21, 2007

Managed care is expensive and hasn't worked
Q: What does your health care plan contain to address racial disparities in access to care?
A: We've had managed care in this country since the early 1970s, and it hasn't worked well. It's very, very expensive, and it's the fault that we changed our ERISA law and our tax laws that created this corporatism that runs medicine. Wall Street rakes off the profits. The patients are unhappy. The doctors are unhappy. And it's a monopoly now. Who lobbies us in Washington? The drug companies and the HMOs. They come. And now what is the cry for? Socialized medicine. That's not the answer. We need to get the government out of the way. Inflation hits the middle class and the poor the most. Those are the people who are losing it. We don't have enough compe ion. There's a doctor monopoly out there. We need alternative health care freely available to the people. They ought to be able to make their own choices and not controlled by the FDA preventing them to use some of the medications.

[whottt]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul339.html


Lowering the Cost of Health Care

by Ron Paul
by Ron Paul


DIGG THIS

As a medical doctor, I’ve seen first-hand how bureaucratic red tape interferes with the doctor-patient relationship and drives costs higher. The current system of third-party payers takes decision-making away from doctors, leaving patients feeling rushed and worsening the quality of care. Yet health insurance premiums and drug costs keep rising. Clearly a new approach is needed. Congress needs to craft innovative legislation that makes health care more affordable without raising taxes or increasing the deficit. It also needs to repeal bad laws that keep health care costs higher than necessary.

We should remember that HMOs did not arise because of free-market demand, but rather because of government mandates. The HMO Act of 1973 requires all but the smallest employers to offer their employees HMO coverage, and the tax code allows businesses – but not individuals – to deduct the cost of health insurance premiums. The result is the illogical coupling of employment and health insurance, which often leaves the unemployed without needed catastrophic coverage.

While many in Congress are happy to criticize HMOs today, the public never hears how the present system was imposed upon the American people by federal law. As usual, government intervention in the private market failed to deliver the promised benefits and caused unintended consequences, but Congress never blames itself for the problems created by bad laws. Instead, we are told more government – in the form of “universal coverage” – is the answer. But government already is involved in roughly two-thirds of all health care spending, through Medicare, Medicaid, and other programs.

For decades, the U.S. healthcare system was the envy of the entire world. Not coincidentally, there was far less government involvement in medicine during this time. America had the finest doctors and hospitals, patients enjoyed high-quality, affordable medical care, and thousands of private charities provided health services for the poor.Doctors focused on treating patients, without the red tape and threat of lawsuits that plague the profession today. Most Americans paid cash for basic services, and had insurance only for major illnesses and accidents. This meant both doctors and patients had an incentive to keep costs down, as the patient was directly responsible for payment, rather than an HMO or government program.

The lesson is clear: when government and other third parties get involved, health care costs spiral. The answer is not a system of outright socialized medicine, but rather a system that encourages everyone – doctors, hospitals, patients, and drug companies – to keep costs down. As long as “somebody else” is paying the bill, the bill will be too high.

The following are bills Congress should pass to reduce health care costs and leave more money in the pockets of families:

HR 3075 provides truly comprehensive health care reform by allowing families to claim a tax credit for the rising cost of health insurance premiums. With many families now spending close to $1000 or even more for their monthly premiums, they need real tax relief – including a dollar-for-dollar credit for every cent they spend on health care premiums – to make medical care more affordable.

HR 3076 is specifically designed to address the medical malpractice crisis that threatens to drive thousands of American doctors – especially obstetricians – out of business. The bill provides a dollar-for-dollar tax credit that permits consumers to purchase "negative outcomes" insurance prior to undergoing surgery or other serious medical treatments. Negative outcomes insurance is a novel approach that guarantees those harmed receive fair compensation, while reducing the burden of costly malpractice litigation on the health care system. Patients receive this insurance payout without having to endure lengthy lawsuits, and without having to give away a large portion of their award to a trial lawyer. This also drastically reduces the costs imposed on physicians and hospitals by malpractice litigation. Under HR 3076, individuals can purchase negative outcomes insurance at essentially no cost.

HR 3077 makes it more affordable for parents to provide health care for their children. It creates a $500 per child tax credit for medical expenses and prescription drugs that are not reimbursed by insurance. It also creates a $3,000 tax credit for dependent children with terminal illnesses, cancer, or disabilities. Parents who are struggling to pay for their children's medical care, especially when those children have serious health problems or special needs, need every extra dollar.

HR 3078 is commonsense, compassionate legislation for those suffering from cancer or other terminal illnesses. The sad reality is that many patients battling serious illnesses will never collect Social Security benefits – yet they continue to pay into the Social Security system. When facing a medical crisis, those patients need every extra dollar to pay for medical care, travel, and family matters. HR 3078 waives the employee portion of Social Security payroll taxes (or self-employment taxes) for individuals with do ented serious illnesses or cancer. It also suspends Social Security taxes for primary caregivers with a sick spouse or child. There is no justification or excuse for collecting Social Security taxes from sick individuals who literally are fighting for their lives.





Paul's ideas aren't that far off from McCains.

[bobbyjoe]

You said Western Countries...I can tell you the Asian diet is one far more healthy than the Western Diet...the health benefits of their diet, in particular Japan are legendary.


You want to go there bobbyjoe?


50% of Japanese men smoke cigarettes.....go check out their lung cancer rates.


It's easier for them to be happier, they're healthier, and it's not because of their healthcare system.


They also had no incidence of baldness prior to WWII before adopting a more Westernized diet.

Actually, you mentioned Western countries, not me. I never differentiated between "Western" and "Industrialized".

The links I showed were to show that UHC doesn't inherently mean lack of freedom of choosing what doctor you want to see.

The increase of Diabetes in the US absolutely has to do with healthcare. Saying it's only about diet is just wrong.

It all goes back to lack of access. Diseases like Diabetes and High Blood Pressure are often asymptomatic until advanced stages of progression. They develop over time and are often thus referred to as silent killers.

If you have a higher % of your population without any access to healthcare (and we have a higher % than any industrialized (not Western), it's far, far, far, FAR more likely that Diabetes and HBP and such are going to be discovered at later stages, be harder to treat, and thus end up affecting more people.

People in other industrialized countries live longer and healthier than America not only because of lifestyle, but very importantly because they go to doctors more often, receive more preventive care, and are able to nip problems in the bud earlier.

There's also an obvious correlation between going to a doctor regularly and acquiring the knowledge to alter and improve lifestyle habits which may be injurious to one's health, so in many ways lifestyle can be argued as a function of health care.

Having the brightest doctors in the World (which America probably does) doesnt mean you have the best healthcare system...

Good organizations don't just defend poor performance or results to be arrogant or proud. They look at what other organizations are doing better and emulate those practices or even improve upon them given the resources they already possess.

The first step is admitting you have a problem and we most certainly do!

[JoeChalupa]

I think unless Obama/Biden really screws up bad, or the Rebub's dig up some more Jeremiah Wright type stuff on Obama the election is still the Dem's to lose imo..... I'm not sold on a few speeches.....

You are correct sir!! I believe that he'll hold on finish strong in the electoral count and bring it home!! His grassroots campaign needs to get out in force and get the people out to the voteing booths and together we'll take this country in the direction it needs to go. YES WE CAN!!!

[2centsworth]

Whottt,

The problem with private health insurance is adverse selection and ultra expensive treatments near the end of life. Health Insurance Companies do not want to insure unhealthy people because they are unprofitable. Healthy people do not want to be included in groups that contain unhealthy people, because it makes insurance more expensive.

The best solution I've ever read, and I've read quite a bit, is the following>
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...58&postcount=1

[whottt]

Whott,

You must read "The End of Food", by Paul Roberts
http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/...EndOfFood.html

I'll check it out...thanks

[sontinospurs]

it also might have saved your life

Oh. But I thought Osama was in Afghanistan near pakistan? right....

So lets see, McCain: I voted for Iraq, its ed up, now I'm going to fix it!!

[florige]

You are correct sir!! I believe that he'll hold on finish strong in the electoral count and bring it home!! His grassroots campaign needs to get out in force and get the people out to the voteing booths and together we'll take this country in the direction it needs to go. YES WE CAN!!!

That sorta scares me some. But right now we are looking pretty good. Like I said barring some groundbreaking scandal of some sort, we should be fine.

[whottt]

Actually, you mentioned Western countries, not me. I never differentiated between "Western" and "Industrialized".

The links I showed were to show that UHC doesn't inherently mean lack of freedom of choosing what doctor you want to see.

The increase of Diabetes in the US absolutely has to do with healthcare. Saying it's only about diet is just wrong.

It all goes back to lack of access. Diseases like Diabetes and High Blood Pressure are often asymptomatic until advanced stages of progression. They develop over time and are often thus referred to as silent killers.

If you have a higher % of your population without any access to healthcare (and we have a higher % than any industrialized (not Western), it's far, far, far, FAR more likely that Diabetes and HBP and such are going to be discovered at later stages, be harder to treat, and thus end up affecting more people.

People in other industrialized countries live longer and healthier than America not only because of lifestyle, but very importantly because they go to doctors more often, receive more preventive care, and are able to nip problems in the bud earlier.

There's also an obvious correlation between going to a doctor regularly and acquiring the knowledge to alter and improve lifestyle habits which may be injurious to one's health, so in many ways lifestyle can be argued as a function of health care.

Having the brightest doctors in the World (which America probably does) doesnt mean you have the best healthcare system...

Good organizations don't just defend poor performance or results to be arrogant or proud. They look at what other organizations are doing better and emulate those practices or even improve upon them given the resources they already possess.

The first step is admitting you have a problem and we most certainly do!

I am sorry bobbyjoe...the American Government is such a massive bureaucracy, I just don't think it'll work. It's fools gold.

I know in many of these countries they have all sorts of ups on it and in many fudge on their health stats too(and their employment rates).

It's not hard to find the flaws if you just look.

I personally don't want the government in charge of my healthcare and would rather not pay the taxes on it. If they can do it that way fine...and I'm not a tax freak either, but this is a tax I would rather not pay.


Like I say...if you want them to do it for catastrophic illness or something I could see it...but every day health care will be a clusterfk.

[boutons_]

Since the McSame (he will NEVER be McChange, nor McNonPartisan, nor McNonRancor) can't run on the disastrous record of the dubya debacle or run on issues and policies (see how many mentions the Repugs gave dubya and head this week?), they've chosen Palin has extreme-right warrior with a pretty face to re-ignite the culture wars so beloved by the resentful sheeple and "Christian" supremacists, totally ignoring the real problems that people want addressed and solve.

The Repugs are very good at lying the country into a Alternate Reality that enriches the wealthy and corps, while ing over everybody else.

We'll see if the polls next indicate if enough of the country has been enough to bend over and let the Repugs sodomize them for 4 more years.

[whottt]

boutson SFTU or I'm going to start bumping threads of you saying the surge wouldn't work.

[whottt]

I still say the Dems are going to lose because McCain just jumped straight to the middle last night while the Daily Kos is running on the Democratic Ticket. Plsu they are showing that bio about how McCain almost jumped to the Democratic party a couple of years ago...he's gone totally moderate right under your noses, and he's still going to get the Republican base.


You guys are sunk.


Especially now that Obama admitted the surge was a resounding success...that's your candidate saying that...not the conservatives.

[boutons_]

The surge didn't work, even McSame said there weren't enough soldiers to make it work. Petraeus buying off 80K Sunnis for $24M/month and completion of the balkanizing and ethnic cleansing of Bagdad reduced the violence, which btw is now increasing, made a much larger difference than the surge.

At the end of 2006, the violence was already declining, 2 months before the surge troops arrived and started kicking ass that produced a kickback that made 2007 have the highest death toll for US troops.

btw, handing over Anbar to the Iraqis is bull , since the US won't withdraw, leaving 25K troops to occupy Anbar. Like the US attacks across the Afghan/Paki border after 7 years of not attacking, the Anbar "handover" is part of the Repug re-election campaign.

[Findog]

Yeah, we will have a hammer and scicle instead of stars and stripes.

Goody.

Commie insults. How trenchant and incisive. You should be really pleased with yourself.

[Findog]

Anybody know how many people watched it last night?

[bobbyjoe]

I'm not a fan of the current effectiveness of American Government either. But they need to get their $hit together on this issue.

Even if that doesn't mean UHC, this issue has to be addressed with some serious thought, open mindedness, bipartisanship and creativity. The status quo sure isn't working. And I hate seeing this become such a partisan (Democrat vs. Republican, free market vs. UHC) issue.

Paul has some interesting takes. I definitely agree with his very liberal, progressive positions on medical marijuana and to a strong degree on his views about the level of criminal justice drug abusers should face (although I'm not sure if his views extend to drug traffickers, which I would strenuously disagree with).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...ns_of_Ron_Paul

However, I would point out that he does differ from McCain quite a bit in that his proposed policies when it comes to health care in most cases are government tax credits/subsidies to help the truly health care deprived and stricken (so both our taxes would still go up if he were elected, it's just that government red tape and regulation wouldn't become issues because they'd have a lower level of involvement; McCain's plan is very tax neutral because of his proposal to make health benefits taxable to employees and has been projected to hardly put a dent in the # of uninsured whereas with all of Paul's subsidies, I'm sure the # would be far greater). I vastly prefer his position to McCain on health...

[FromWayDowntown]

Only if you go to "renowned" ins utions. I haven't had any propaganda taught to me and I'll be graduating next year. Maybe it's because I took a real subject (math/science) instead of something like english/arts/business.

I'd say it's the period of time and the experience that makes so many 17-24 year olds lean so far to the left. You would think they got over being rebels after not being teenagers anymore. Nope. I get FAR more left-leaning propaganda from other students than I do professors. People asking to join their group, to read their handouts, etc, etc.

I can only go by my own experiences, but I can tell you that during the time that I attended one such renowned ins ution, I was substantially more conservative than I am now. The only point during my time there that there seemed to be any hint of indoctrination via the classroom was my first-year writing instructor's insistence upon politically correct rhetoric. That provoked me to write an advocacy piece about the silliness of the p.c. movement. Outside of the classrooms, the campus was diverse and there were many "liberal" groups who were active, but I can't recall a single big event that didn't have a "conservative" analog to meet it. I was there when Desert Storm commenced and for all of the groups of peace protesters, there were groups who supported the war and the troops. Nothing about the ins ution or its structure bespoke indoctrination -- it was, looking back on it, an active marketplace of ideas.

Curiously, I'm far less conservative today than I was when I was attending such a renowned ins ution -- I'm far less conservative today despite having spent 3 years of my life toiling in a relatively-conservative graduate school in one of the most conservative portions of the country.

[2centsworth]

Only if you go to "renowned" ins utions. I haven't had any propaganda taught to me and I'll be graduating next year. Maybe it's because I took a real subject (math/science) instead of something like english/arts/business.

i love the arrogance.

I'd say it's the period of time and the experience that makes so many 17-24 year olds lean so far to the left. You would think they got over being rebels after not being teenagers anymore. Nope. I get FAR more left-leaning propaganda from other students than I do professors. People asking to join their group, to read their handouts, etc, etc.

the indoctrination is to make these kids feel guilty about killing indians and having slaves. now we're killing the environment.

And It's all for Money.

[Thunder Dan]

he didn't hit a home run- it sounded like a speech from a creepy old man who can't move his arms or manage to keep the coffee stains off his teeth. He reminded me of Jack Palance from City Slickers.


And if I hear the term 'Mavrick' used to describe him one more time I'm gonna lose it

[clambake]

we are all prisoners of his POW stories.

i have now officially served my country.

[FromWayDowntown]

I post with a lot of cynicism about this election and, despite some appearances, am still not sure I've made up my mind about who to vote for -- I'd say I'm leaning Obama, but not completely sold on Obama.

With that, though, there's nothing about McCain as a leader that inspires me. When he speaks, I wonder if he believes what he says (particularly given his fairly dramatic right-ward shift in the last year or two) and think sometimes that he's speaking with pragmatic rhetoric more than real conviction in principles.

[2centsworth]

With that, though, there's nothing about McCain as a leader that inspires me. When he speaks, I wonder if he believes what he says (particularly given his fairly dramatic right-ward shift in the last year or two) and think sometimes that he's speaking with pragmatic rhetoric more than real conviction in principles.

With McCain you have to look at his record to get a sense of what he will do as president. He has continually gone against the grain. In fact, conservatives hated the guy and there were even questions whether he should change parties. His actions are very consistent with the speech he gave last night. He doesn't motivate and that frustrates him sometimes, but he does stick to his guns.

And no matter what the libs want to say about his military service, he is a real American Hero. Not to say that alone qualifies him to be president.

[Thunder Dan]

too bad none of you guys' votes count!

I'm in Ohio, my vote matters most so suck it!