Yep.
I just wish DRob had the help Hakeem did when he was in his prime.
If he cant dunk it. You've played excellent defense on Shaq a Snack. There is noway on this planet you can compare Shaq and Drob. One was and still is a man. The other was a immature kid and still is a immature man. Make no mistake, there are men who live to be 70, and are still clueless. I didn't make that rule......just the way it is.
Shaq had some good moves around the basket for a man his size but ultimately his size is what made him anything close to good. As far as an actual skill set goes he cannot be mentioned in the same sentence with DRob or Dream. Not to mention DRob and Dream were both character guys...which would probably be the deciding factor that would lead me to take either one of them over Shaq from a team building standpoint.
Duncan came into the league after Robinson's back injury. Again, like most of the media, if you wish to use that period as your basis for defining Robinson's legacy you would be neglecting the years Robinson outclassed the other great centers of his era (including Olojuwon).I happen to remember Shaq giving fits to both Robinson and Duncan at the same time. I use to frequent those games and remember Robinson always being in foul trouble trying to guard Shaq. Thats when I noticed how good Duncan really was, because he would go toe to toe with Shaq. Robinson was a unique great player thats for sure.
So much so that Shaq developed a certain knack for 'randomly' missing games against the Admiral. I remember a certain play in 1994 when Robinson blocked one of Shaq's 'patented' two-handed rim-rockers. An enraged Shaq asked for the ball on the Magic's next possesion and yes... was swatted yet again. Too bad Youtube did not exist in those days; and typical that ESPN would rarely choose to play such clips. Or clips of Robinson 'blealing' the ball from Michael Jordan while attempting a slam dunk and being the first one down the other end of the court for a one-man fastbreak dunk of his own.
P.S. where's whottt when you need him to post all the head-to-head boxscores, displaying said ownage.
You mean how Robinson held Shaq to 22.5 ppg in a playoff series, or how he guarded him one-on-one with a floating chip in his back while he was on the downward slope of his career?
Shaq giving Robinson fits? That also explains why the Spurs were the last team Shaq could beat. Your memory is fuzzy.
That is a lot to read since I am here at work. I did get the gist of it though. Robinson is better than Snaq. That sounds about right to me.
Little hard on Shaq there buddy - you may be a Kobe Jock-sniffer, but Shaq carried those Lakers teams...
Even if my first love is Ewing (lived in New York in the 1990s), I have always wanted DRob to win it all, because he is such a class. Honor. Service. Integrity. Commitment. [Did I read somewhere that DRob scored a perfect SAT and at some point considered becoming a scientist?]
Ken Rodriguez: Jordan rules, but Robinson's going out on top
San Antonio Express-News
Web Posted : 06/03/2003 12:00 AM
David Robinson felt young again, leaping, laughing, dancing in the magic of the moment.
In Game 6 of the Western Conference finals, he was a sight: A creaking, aging center celebrating a fourth-quarter comeback. A 37-year-old man with bad knees jumping and spinning in front of the Spurs bench.
Remember the snapshot.
It's irony for the ages.
Because the greatest person in league history is leaving the game in a cloud of glory, even as the greatest player leaves in a cloud of acrimony.
Robinson leaves after 14 seasons with a trip to the NBA Finals. Michael Jordan leaves after 15 with a pink slip.
Robinson leaves fired up. Jordan leaves just fired.
Robinson leaves with an untainted image. Jordan leaves with his name smeared by former teammates and a former lover.
Robinson leaves a $9 million gift to a school he built on the city's East Side. Jordan leaves with an ex-mistress seeking $5 million in allegedly promised "hush money" from an affair.
Robinson leaves after the Spurs throw him a party with 19,000 invited guests. Jordan leaves after the Wizards kick him out the front door.
On the day the Wizards knocked King Jordan off his throne — saying he would not return as president of basketball operations — Robinson was helping the Spurs dethrone the Lakers 114-95 in Game 2 of the Western Conference semifinals.
Two aging stars.
Two opposite endings to storied careers.
Two all-time greats.
Two opposite sets of values that mark storied lives.
When they played on the '92 Olympic team together, Jordan and Robinson ran in different late-night circles.
Jordan had his pack of cigar-smoking, poker-playing buddies. Robinson had his Bible and saxophone.
Jordan didn't understand the spiritual passions that made Robinson burn. But Robinson understood that, when he had to, he could lead the Dream Team in scoring, as he did in the '96 gold-medal game.
Seven years later, Jordan, the greatest player in history, and Robinson, one of the 50 greatest, move farther and farther apart: Jordan into retirement, rejected and hurt, Robinson into the NBA Finals, embraced and elated.
"Michael had a much better year than David did, as far as level of play," says Spurs guard Steve Kerr, who once played with Jordan in Chicago. "But it doesn't matter. What matters is winning or losing, so David will go out on a higher note than Michael."
Jordan chose this ending after writing the perfect one in Chicago. He made his final shot with the Bulls, then took parting shots from the Wizards.
He left behind a losing team, an unhappy owner and resentful teammates cheering his departure.
Even in Chicago, where Jordan made his name, some are asking that he stay away.
One columnist wrote: "What we thought would be a nice outlet for Jordan's compe ive juices — decision-maker for the Wizards — ended up exposing him as a lazy executive, a poor judge of talent and an unpleasant teammate."
The columnist concluded, "Nobody likes a bully, especially when he's not very good at it anymore. That he used to be our bully isn't enough justification for bringing him back."
In San Antonio, Robinson leaves with the city on its feet, with fans chanting, "One more year! One more year!" as they did at a recent Spurs-Mavericks game.
Rare is the star athlete who retires as a champion. Rocky Marciano did. John Elway did. Jordan did — for three years.
Now Jordan leaves in a haze of ill will as Robinson leaves in a glow of goodwill.
Anyone still want to be Like Mike?
Jordan still has his millions, still has his legacy, still has his place in the world as one of the most popular athletes.
He has everything that Robinson never much cared about — and now Robinson has everything Jordan mostly cared about: A chance to win another le.
Who scripted this NBA farewell?
Certainly not the author of "Nice Guys Finish Last."
Fans will remember Jordan's final, le-clinching shot with the Bulls, his soaring, gravity-defying dunks. I'll remember those, too. But I'll also remember a winter night seven years ago in South Florida.
At 1:30 a.m., the Bulls' bus pulled up to an elegant hotel in Miami. Fresh off a victory in Atlanta, Ron Harper hit the ground and said, "Where are the clubs?"
Because I was researching a story about athletes and groupies, I followed Jordan, Harper and others across the street, where they began partying (Kerr, I wrote in a notebook, stayed behind at the hotel).
Sometime after 2 a.m., I decided to go home. A bar employee said the players remained past 3:30 a.m.
Later that morning, the Bulls canceled their shootaround. That night, the champion Bulls lost to a struggling Heat team, and everyone wondered, "How did that happen?"
I thought of that winter night earlier this spring when, after a Spurs game, fans were invited to listen to Robinson speak at a Fellowship of Christian Athletes meeting.
Two men.
Two NBA treasures.
Jordan played the game like no one ever has.
Robinson put the game in perspective like no one ever has.
"Years from now," Robinson said recently, "no one will remember the details of what I did on the court. It will be trivia."
But years from now, if Robinson closes his career with a second trophy, everyone will remember the perfect ending.
And maybe Michael will wish, if only for that moment, that he could have been Like David.
-----------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]
Put it this way - on Dream Team II Robinson started ahead of both Shaq and Ewing.
Robinson, in his prime, was simply a stud, and if he had had a Kobe (or Manu, Bowen, and Parker around him would have won many les.)
Both Shaq and Drob will be in th HOF on the first ballet. That is a given to me. Comparing them or for that matter any other player(s) is always tough and has its pros and cons. One issue I would think needs to be taken into account are the refs at the time and how they called the game. The reason for this is pretty simple - I've stated this before and truely believe in this concept: When you market a product, in this case basketkall, by using individuals the compamy of that product (NBA) has to allow the paying customers (fans) to view the spokemen (insert your favorite superstar(s) - Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, AI, Magic, Bird,Duncan...etc.) for the product on a regular basis. They can't be sitting on the bench in foul trouble for extended lengths of time otherwise you are defeating the marketing campaign. Paying customers who come to see their favorite player(s) and rarely see them on the floor will stop coming. The spokesmen must be on the floor for the majority of the time in order for the customer to get the preceived "bang for their buck". If that doesn't happen then they think that they aren't getting their money's worth so why pay for the tickets. I'm old enough to remember the change in marketing from the team to the indidual that happened with the coming of Magic and Bird and shortly thereafter Jordan. This change in marketing proved to be key in turning around the fortunes - the NBA was on the brink of failure as many teams where deep in the red with no end in sight - of the league and making the NBA what it is today. I'm not debating the merits of this but I definitely think this had a huge impact on how the game was going to be called in the future.
Shaq IMHO would have never been as good in the 70's to mid 80's as he has became. He would have been in constant foul trouble due to the fact that his offensive moves to the hole are usually offensive fouls. The refs wouldn't have allowed him to bully defenders in the post like he has done throughout his career. Mendy Rudolph and Earl Strom I don't think would have allowed it and they usually set the tone for how games were called, especially Rudolph.
And anyone defending either player will be able to come up with very good points as to why Shaq/Drob are better than the other. But in the scheme of things it seems that Shaq will be rated by most as the better of the two. More les and first team all NBAs not to mention the preceived lack of toughness that Drob has suffered from. Shaq had very good touch around the basket and moved well for a man of his size. But I believe that it was his size that made him what he is. He used his shear strength to displace defenders around the basket, even when the defenders had defensive position. Case in point was the 2002 Finals - Lakers vs. Sixers - where Doug Collins used slow mo to show this very thing. He showed how Shaq constantly dipped his shoulder into Mutambo's chest and knocked him several feet backwards. Shaq would then repeat the same move until he was within several feet of the basket and then go for the shot. The majority of the time the refs called the foul on Mutambo and Shaq goes to the lline. Funny how as Shaq's skills started to decline shortly after that those calls started going against him. Or was it the TV exposure by Collins?
This is in no way about Shaq bashing because I believe Shaq didn't do anything wrong. The game changed to allow Sahq to do what he did. He simply took advantage of the way it was being played and made the most of it. But IMHO if the refs called the game like it was called up through the mid 80's Shaq would not have achieved the dominance he did. But as the saying goes "Money talks and BS walks". It is what it is and nothing is going to change that. And we all know the NBA is all about the benjamins.
In a perfect world I think Drob would be the better center but nothing's perfect and everyone tries to make the most of what they are given. I'd take either one as my center with no regrets - both are exceptional players and both will desevedly be inducted to the HOF.
Last edited by nfg3; 09-08-2008 at 12:31 PM.
I believe he scored a 1320.
nice article, i would still take hakeem though.
I remember David would win that IBM award for putting up the best overall statistics almost every year. So this is no surprise.
You need to be the one to sit on your mother's face.
I liked DRob as a player and as a gentleman but he can't compare to Shaq and Dream, it's really a different level.
In the late 90's and early 2000's, nobody could stop Shaq except via Hack a Shaq. Without a doubt, Shaq was the most dominant big man in ages.
Dream was 2nd with pretty much as complete an offensive game as you've seen in a big man.
If I was picking a team with these guys in their prime, I'd take
1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Dream
4. The Admiral
It's no knock on the Admiral, he was just too much of a nice guy to beat the out of his opponents.
And yet before his injury.... he did just that; like drop triple doubles on Shaq's face.
Speaking of fouls, Shaq couldn't even manage to finish games against D-Rob, as David would almost always put him in foul trouble.
As for Olojuwon, he had a 2-3 year stint during his career where he was simply phenomenal... an unstoppable basketball player... Frankly however, even at that level the difference between Olojuwon's and David's impact on the court was small. History will always belittle Robinson's legacy due to that series in 1995. But if one could swap Robinson with Olojuwon on those teams; the Rockets would have won every series. It would be revisionist history to suggest that Robinson was at fault for allowing Olojuwon's Rockets to outplay the Spurs. People seem to forget that it was Houston's 3pt shooting prowess that allowed that team to have such an effective inside-out game. Further still, it was their clutch shooting which catapulted them to Championships. Not to mention that the Rockets had better coaching; or that the Spurs shooters essentially handicapped Robinson every postseason.
But I find myself talking to a brick wall...... Like most Laker fans (even classy ones), fans who would be apalled by the mere suggestion that Shaq was inferior to players such as Olojuwon or Robinson.... You all are incapable of recognizing David's true place in history because you all have been limited by the perception of 'Robinson' that the media has fed you throughout the years.
As far as centers from the 90's are concerned:
Robinson = Olojuwon >> Shaquille > Ewing > Mourning = Mutombo >> Divacs = Sabonis
Shaq has been overrated for most of his career.
I recognize him as an unstoppable force, and I would even say that people who say his success was strictly due to his size are just haters, as his footwork and moves around the basket is superb. He is also a phenomenal passer as he got older.
However, his defense was average at best. His pick-and-roll defense is atrocious, his man to man defense is average, and his help defense is only slightly above average. He has always been surrounded by great teammates in his career, and in the years that he wasn't surrounded by an absolutely outstanding supporting cast, his team didn't produce any better than any of Robinson's team did.
He missed the playoffs his rookie season, got swept out of the 1st round his second despite having a great young team, swept out of the finals the next year by the same Rockets team that embarrassed the Spurs (btw, I think Hakeem avearged 35 vs. Robinson's single team, and averaged something like 33 vs. a Shaq and Ho Grant double), got swept by the Bulls the following season (I know, they are playing against Jordan and bunch, but still, swept?), then left the Magic and destroyed the franchise that drafted him.
In LA, the team lost 4-1 in the 2nd round to the Jazz despite a relatively loaded roster, got swept the next season by the Jazz, then swept by the Spurs. Curiously, it wasn't until Kobe Bryant blossomed into a bona fide superstar that the Lakers see great success (not to mention having contributions from Glen Rice, Ron Harder, Rick Fox, Fisher, Horry, Malone, Payton through the years).
Compare this to Robinson's supporting cast earlier on in his career. There wasn't anybody capable of generating any offense outside of Elliott, and he wasn't even being surrounded by any kind of reasonable outside shooters. Avery Johnson as starting PG? Vinny Del Negro? The year Robinson got any help, he made it to the second round and lost a hard fought series to the Blazers.
As for Hakeem, look what happened when his teammates suck, he misses playoffs. Robinson on the other hand, hauled his team to the playoffs one season by leading the team in assists AND scoring. You heard right, he led the team in assists as a center. And what is more appalling is that he averaged 4.8 assists per game. This means that his PG couldn't even average 4.8 assists per game. Willie Anderson and Vinny Del Negro were 2nd and 3rd in assists on that team. The other players are Dennis Rodman, Dale Ellis (way past his prime), Negele Knight, JR Reid, Terry mings (post injury), Antoine Carr and Lloyd Daniels. THe team finished 55-27, and lost 3-1 in the first round to the Jazz. Was it because Robinson choked in the playoffs? Revisionist history said yes because he average 10 points less and shot considerable worse in the playoffs, but anyone who actually watched the game, or had any common sense would understand all the Jazz needed to do is to sag the middle, and dare the likes of Dale Ellis (who averaged a whopping 10.5ppg on 39.5% shooting), Negele Knight, Willie Anderson and Vinny Del Negro beat you from the outside, or you can just leave Dennis Rodman open to take 5 3 pters in a 4 game series, making ZERO of them. Even better, foul Rodman, he made 1 of 6 in the series anyways.
Thing is, Robinson went through something similar every single year in the mid-ninties. His got killed in the playoffs, but what the are they even doing in the playoffs anyways? Those teams have no business even BEING in the playoffs, let alone having year after year of 50+ wins. If Robinson would have tanked, faked an injury or something to get the team into the lottery, maybe the Spurs would have had a different supporting cast and the Admiral would be viewed in a different light.
Why, because Dirk won defensive player of the years, 4 All-NBA first team, and had crappy teammates throughout his career? Let me see, Steve Nash = Avery Johnson, Michael Finley = Sean Elliott, Josh Howard = Dennis Rodman, Jerry Stackhouse = Vinny Del Negro, Devin Harris = Negele Knight.So what you are saying is Robinson is a Dirk
Great comparison, you have demonstrated your comprehension skills perfectly.
Wade and Hardaway got injured after Shaq left, and before Hardaway career was destroyed, he played great for the Magic, with or without Shaq. Wade has regained some of his explosiveness, and is once again wreaking havoc. In fact, Wade played well BEFORE Shaq joined the Heat, and was the clear leader in 06, there isn’t even a question about it.
Kobe on the other hand, led the league in scoring, won an MVP, led the Lakers to the finals (then got humiliated), led an undermanned team to playoffs and heartbreaking losses against the Suns. What media has turned on Kobe? He has been a perennial revenue generating leader for the league, and the media LOVES him, they voted him MVP, what more do you want?
Duncan’s stats are better than Bird’s? That’s really news to me. What I do know is that Duncan trumps Bird in individual accomplishments (with a weaker supporting cast but also weaker compe ion). Duncan was by far the better defender, and Bird the better offensive player. The two are at least on the same level, I am not getting into who is better.I find it strange that in another thread there is another debate about Duncan and Bird, and as expected, Spurs fans have made every case as to why Duncan is a better player than Bird
And Shaq? He won an MVP, 3 finals MVP, 1st team all NBAs (not until Hakeem and Robinson were down and broken, he couldn’t even touch those during Hakeem and Robinson’s prime), all-star games, 1 scoring le, no rebounding les and no block shot les.
Robinson won an MVP, 1st team all NBAs, all-star games, a scoring le, a rebounding le, a blocked shot le.
Please explain.
Well duh! The whole point of the article and subsequent threads is to illustrate how ill-informed and overall ignorant an average NBA fan is. Glad to know that you belong to that group.
Perhaps you can start talking about specific points of my post where you don’t agree with, such as Shaq’s defense, his team success with a non-all-star padded cast, Hakeem’s playoff woes before he was surrounded by a great 3 point shooting team, or Robinson’s accomplishments with a similar, if not inferior supporting cast as the other two mentioned.
I was the one pulling out the stats, you were the one talking on and on and on with nothing to back up, so yeah, I agree with you, you are basically “All words, no substance!!!”
Robinson led his team to the best regular season of Spurs history as the MVP of the league. His supporting cast was so strong, it consists of Avery Johnson as the starting point and Vinny Del Negro as the starting SG. Sean Elliott was the closest thing to an all-star that year, with Dennis Rodman a close second. Of course we all know how Rodman chose to leave Horry wide open time and time again for open jumpshots, shoot 3pters to screw the game up, and decided to quit on the team on more than one game. But no, it was all Robinson’s fault because he was double and tripled every time he touched the ball.
The last time Shaq had only a marginal all-star and a bunch of below average players on his team, he got swept out of the 1st round.
Bird and Duncan are about the same as a defender? Which planet are you from? Guess what, look up the all-defensive teams Duncan was on, then check out the ones Bird was on, and finally look up who chose those all-D teams, and unless you think you are a better judgement of defensive abilities than NBA coaches, you are just basically saying that you are full of (no surprises there).
Funny how you brought up college and come up short, could you remind me when did Bird and Hakeem won their NCAA les?
Were you even watching the Olympics that year? Marbury rings a bell?
In my opinion, there are only a few guys that could do whatever they wanted to, whenever they wanted to, both Duncan and Bird were those players. Blow me.
Kobe is real clutch, a player who decides to shoot every possession when his team is down is bound to get a few games in, but people don’t remember the ones where he shoots his team to defeats. Want proof? Check 2004 and 2008 Finals.
And no, T-Mac does NOT have the same game as Bryant, Bryant is a much better player, and it’s not even close. People see two SG/SF player who has a slashing game, can score a lot of points, and automatically put the two together for comparison, but fact is, Bryant is a much better outside shooter, and handle the ball better, and can be a better facilitator if he wanted to.
Robinson on the other hand, does not have much post up game, he was more of a drive and dunk player. And him not being clutch? Check his numbers when he had Rod Strickland as his PG, it’s much easier to be clutch when you have a PG who can actually get you the ball and not allow the opposition to collapse their whole defense on you.
Because you are so thoroughly broken down the arguments in the original article I bet. He won IBM awards (which measures statistical production) for 5 years, O'Neal won 2, and Hakeem once. So why is that not productive?
What big game situation other than those two years? Perhaps 1986, but other than that? How quickly you forget about the Suns. You know where the name Clutch cities originate from? Check this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choke_City
Last edited by ambchang; 09-09-2008 at 03:24 PM.
Finally, first we got some Mav fan idiot coming in saying that Robinson was only a good shot blocker but not a good defender, then we have this dumbass Laker fan coming in saying that Duncan is only marginally better than Bird on defense.
WTH? Do these guys know how defense is played? Robinson and Duncan are two of the greatest defenders in the history of the league, and has the stats (both team and individual), awards and accolades to prove it. If you guys don't want to be embarrassed in a public forum, go read a book on NBA history, or subscribe to NBA TV and watch some NBA classics before opening your yap on a subject where you have NO knowledge of.
You don't see me coming in here yapping about how Dan Marino sucked, right? Because I wouldn't know what I was talking about if I did. Now do us a favour and learn about Duncan and Robinson, especially their defense, before you come in and act like some guy who couldn't have watched basketball for more than 18 months.
More media garbage taking cheap shots at Robinson.
If the difference between Olojuwon and Robinson was so great, explain how Olojuwon completely dominated Robinson to the tune of a one point win? I guess it neglects the fact that the series was decided by two game winning shots from Houston's 3pt specialists.
Robinson was embarrassed to say that he thought he guarded him well, please i like Robinson but that is bull lol.
amen.You confusing individual play with team play. Sure, the games were close, but the matchup of Hakeem vs Robinson was a slaughter. Infact, never before in the history of any sport has a player led his team to the most wins in a season, given the MVP award, and the same day get outplayed so bad. Except for maybe Dirk. You saw the video, Robinson is still dizzy from the "DREAM SHAKE."
Look at Dave's supporting cast over his entire career and tell me something. Hakeem although I give the slight edge to won his two back to back and fell right back into the nightmare dave had his whole career of a lack of a supporting cast. Some of those 50+ win seasons were all david robinson. his supporting cast thanks to cheap owners who get alot of credit for keeping the spurs in town tried to splash with big coaching names and had bob bass keep the team floating with low budget casts. David will always be my favorite spur and it was when he got a supporting cast that the trophy's came and timmy has been blessed with supporting casts.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
