Raptors To Play Bargnani At Small Forward?

[timvp]

A bust according to who, you? I watch the Raptors play all the time as well. His rookie year he was runner up for rookie of the year, how much do you want from the first round pick?

Runner up when he was one of two rookies to play a major role on their team isn't that great of an accomplishment. The rookie play that season was statistically proven to be the worst in history. A lot of the players ending up blooming in their second year, but that first year Bustnani was force fed a major role and had name recognition. Those two things allowed him to garner one first place vote, IIRC.

Here are the number one draft picks numbers their first two years (because that is all that Bargnani has played):


2007 - Greg Oden DNP
2006 - Andrea Bargnani 24 mpg, 10.8 pts, 3.8 reb, 1 ast 40% FG
2005 - Andrew Bogut 31 mpg, 10.8 pts, 8 reb, 2.6 ast, 54% FG
2004 - Dwight Howard 34 mpg, 13.5 pts, 11 reb, 1 ast, 52% FG
2003 - Lebron James 40 mpg, 24 pts, 6.5 reb, 6.5 ast, 44% FG
2002 - Yao Ming 30 mpg, 15 pts, 8.5 reb, 1.5 ast, 51% FG
2001 - Kwame Brown 18 mpg, 6 pts, 4 reb, .8 ast, 41% FG
2000 - Kenyon Martin 33 mpg, 13 pts, 6 reb, 2 ast, 45% FG
1999 - Elton Brand 38 mpg, 20 pts, 10 reb, 2 ast, 48% FG
1998 - Michael Olowokandi 30 m, 9.5 pts, 8 reb, .5 ast, 43% FG
1997 - Tim Duncan 39 mpg, 21 pts, 11.5 reb, 2.5 ast, 51% FG

So as you can see, after the first two years, he compares ok with most of the first picks.

You just owned yourself. Look at those stats and see that Kwame Brown and Bustnani had by far the worst numbers. The step up from those two players to the third worst player is a huge step. Are you going to argue that Kwame Brown isn't a bust?

Even if you factor in minutes, Bustnani still shows as a one-dimensional gunner who does nothing else but score. And that's exactly what he is.

It means you should be at the top of your draft class. With the exception of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, Rudy Gay and Rondo, he is. That is not bad. Being arguably the 5th best player in your draft and being young is a pretty good haul.

Be prepared to add Tyrus Thomas and Randy Foye to that mix.

And being a bust isn't about how many people are better than him. If he was a good player that happened to be in a draft with a ton of talent, he wouldn't be called a bust.

He's a bust because he just not a good player. He does nothing but score. He's one of the worst rebounding bigmen in the league. He doesn't block shots. He doesn't defend. He doesn't pass. He's not going to suddenly be able to do those things as time goes along. And on top of those negative attributes, he has a rep for being lazy and has a bad at ude.

He's talented enough to one day average a good amount of points but that won't hide the fact that he's nothing close to what he was projected to be coming out of Europe. Scouts were calling him a more athletic version of Dirk ... he ended up being a worse rebounding, worse passing version of Antoine Walker without the shimmy.

The Raptors themselves obviously already began admitting their mistake by going out and trading for Jermaine O'Neal. If Bustnani was the emerging stud you make him out to be, do you really think they would have traded for a center? Wouldn't they be making room for baby Larry Bird to excel?

But yeah if you think a first overall pick that does nothing but score while shooting at a low percentage isn't a bust ... I'm not sure what to tell you.

You are en led to your opinion I guess, but there is not really any substance behind your claims.

I'm sorry I couldn't produce a self-owning chart.

Oh and who did Andre Iguodala end up signing with? I seem to remember someone named DPG telling me he was going to leave Philly because Philly wasn't going to offer more money than they did last year because a blog said so.

[lefty]

Bargnagna disappoints me.

He impressed me as a Rookie, and I was raving about him @ Spurstalk.

Timvp is right, Bargnagna = Bustnani

[Sissiborgo]

He's way to slow for a SF... And that's not a good idea to make him play SF..

[DPG21920]

Is he an elite first pick? No. Is it way to early to call him a bust, especially when examining this list? Yes. Just because you are a #1 pick does not mean you are supposed to be a hall of famer. It means you should be at the top of your draft class. With the exception of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, Rudy Gay and Rondo, he is. That is not bad. Being arguably the 5th best player in your draft and being young is a pretty good haul.

You are en led to your opinion I guess, but there is not really any substance behind your claims. I watch a ton of games for every team, and I think he has noticeable talent. Lets wait a few years to pass judgment.

[resistanze]

Rudy Gay, Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Alridge, Randy Foye? those dudes. We got Bargnani!

[DPG21920]

That is the point, none of those guys are superstars. It was a weak draft. So just because you go number 1 in a weak draft does not mean you are supposed to be magically held to some standard. You have to be one of the best in your draft class and he is. Also he has only played for two years; that is too small of a sample size.

[resistanze]

Unfortuately, Bargnani is regressing. He's a poor rebounder and his shot selections negates the fact that he's a big man capable of shooting the rock; hence he shots like 40% from the field.

I honestly don't see how he was going to fit with the Raps in the first place, they commited to Rasho at center and had Bosh at the four. Rather than soldifiying the swingman position, they got Bargnani? It didn't help that Colangelo was in bed with that ing Italian scout who knew Bargnani.

[DPG21920]

He obviously regressed in his second year, and that is hard to explain. If he continues to do so, then you can call him a bust. My point is that his first year play (especially in the playoffs) warrants some patience. Although he did regress, he has shown flashes.

[ploto]

Considering I watched more Raptors action over the past 2 years- on TV and in person- than just about anyone here, I will comment:

A guy whose main claim is that he can shoot should not shoot the absolute worst FG% on the entire team! And it was not because he was trying something new. He was awful from the outside wide open (35 % 3-pt line).

As for SF, he will get killed. He can not defend a guy on the perimeter to save his life. Guess Moon will get benched now for Andrea. Can not wait to watch him guard LeBron and Pierce.

I wanted to like Andrea but the excuses made for him all he time by management made fans dislike him. He also is a guy who floats around for long stretches and does nothing. If his shot is not falling, he disappears completely from the game.

Worst of all is that he does not listen to people. He had problems with not doing what coaches told him he needed to work on and he did not listen to those players with more experience from whom he could learn.

[timvp]

Checkmate.

Especially considering ploto would like nothing more than to disagree with what timvp says

[DPG21920]

He is young, if he learns to listen and learns how much work it takes to be successful in this league he will do well. If not, he will go no where, just like all other players.

[DPG21920]

Checkmate.

Especially considering ploto would like nothing more than to disagree with what timvp says

Not even close, considering I have quantifiable evidence that contrast your opinions!

[DPG21920]

Hopefully I can bump this thread in the coming years with a big fat told you so!

[timvp]

Hopefully I can bump this thread in the coming years with a big fat told you so!

Would you bump it with three consecutive posts?

Put your Bustnani predictions on paper. What do you think he'll eventually average? What shooting percentages?

Obviously he's going to improve because he was horrible last year but I'm interested to see how much better you think he'll become. Spell it out.

[MrChug]

it's funny how half of these guys sucked afterwards.

How dumb a post was this? ^^^

[DPG21920]

Would you bump it with three consecutive posts?

Put your Bustnani predictions on paper. What do you think he'll eventually average? What shooting percentages?

Obviously he's going to improve because he was horrible last year but I'm interested to see how much better you think he'll become. Spell it out.

Would you bump it in the third person?

You put down what you think he will average, why is it that you only require people to prove things? Put yours down.

I say within the next two years you will see him averaging 15pts on 46% shooting with 39% 3pt %, 85% FT and around 5.5 boards, 2 assist and a block a game.

[DPG21920]

I think his ceiling is around 19 pts, 48% shooting, 40% 3pts, 87% FT, 6.5 boards. To say he is obviously going to improve (on averaging double digit points none the less) because he was horrible is just a cop out. Many players (even #1 draft picks) have bad years and do not get better (Kwame Brown), in fact some get worse or just stay the same. To show improvement (especially when you already average double digits) is a good sign.

I believe that (by doing some research) the mean scoring average in the NBA was 8.3 points per game. Even though Bargnani was above that, that number is really statistically irrelevant because the vast majority of NBA players score under that. So a more relevant and telling number is the median scoring average in the NBA. This came out to 6.6 points a game. This means that exactly half of the players in the NBA scored less and half scored more. Bargnani was way ahead of the curve and did not even average 25 minutes a game. So at least statically he is ahead of most of the NBA in scoring, in only his second year (which was a poor one...)

[Red Hawk #21]

Bargnani may need a running offense to play his best, I think if he went to Golden State, Phoenix or Denver he could be really good. But for now I guess you have to label him as a bust.

[DPG21920]

Runner up when he was one of two rookies to play a major role on their team isn't that great of an accomplishment. The rookie play that season was statistically proven to be the worst in history. A lot of the players ending up blooming in their second year, but that first year Bustnani was force fed a major role and had name recognition. Those two things allowed him to garner one first place vote, IIRC.

He did only get one first place vote.

You just owned yourself. Look at those stats and see that Kwame Brown and Bustnani had by far the worst numbers. The step up from those two players to the third worst player is a huge step. Are you going to argue that Kwame Brown isn't a bust?

How is that owning myself. He does have deficiencies in some categories, but for being a scorer (which is what he is) he fared well with most all of those players. He is a skill player. Howard cannot hit a 3. Obviously Kwame is a bust, but he has been in the league for many years and only averaged double digits once.

Even if you factor in minutes, Bustnani still shows as a one-dimensional gunner who does nothing else but score. And that's exactly what he is.

Be prepared to add Tyrus Thomas and Randy Foye to that mix.

I pimp the T-Wolves more than anyone on this site, so I am well aware of Foye. I think Bargs will be up there.

And being a bust isn't about how many people are better than him. If he was a good player that happened to be in a draft with a ton of talent, he wouldn't be called a bust.

He's a bust because he just not a good player. He does nothing but score. He's one of the worst rebounding bigmen in the league. He doesn't block shots. He doesn't defend. He doesn't pass. He's not going to suddenly be able to do those things as time goes along. And on top of those negative attributes, he has a rep for being lazy and has a bad at ude.

He's talented enough to one day average a good amount of points but that won't hide the fact that he's nothing close to what he was projected to be coming out of Europe. Scouts were calling him a more athletic version of Dirk ... he ended up being a worse rebounding, worse passing version of Antoine Walker without the shimmy.

People who called him Dirk way overreacted. I never said he would be MVP of the league or average 20 points 9 rebounds. I said that just because he got picked #1 in the draft, averaged double digits in his first two seasons, does not make him a bust. If he got picked #5 would he still be a bust. He is not a bad player. He has A TON TO LEARN, but has shown flashes.

The Raptors themselves obviously already began admitting their mistake by going out and trading for Jermaine O'Neal. If Bustnani was the emerging stud you make him out to be, do you really think they would have traded for a center? Wouldn't they be making room for baby Larry Bird to excel?

But yeah if you think a first overall pick that does nothing but score while shooting at a low percentage isn't a bust ... I'm not sure what to tell you.



I'm sorry I couldn't produce a self-owning chart.

Link to where I said he was an "emerging stud". I said he is: a) not a bust and b) I think he will improve and be good and c) that I would take him on the Spurs. That is all. He is a scorer, that is why they liked him. No one but you is trying to argue that. It is widely known. If he is a scorer, and he is doing that and he improves, than he is what most thought he was. No intelligent basketball person would think he was "bird" or "dirk", just a nice player.

Oh and who did Andre Iguodala end up signing with? I seem to remember someone named DPG telling me he was going to leave Philly because Philly wasn't going to offer more money than they did last year because a blog said so.

This coming from the guy who I quoted saying Udoka was the perfect replacement for Bowen, to saying: "things change".

Well my answer to AI, is: things change!

Its better than saying things like: Mahinmi will either be good in the NBA or he won't, there's a 50/50 chance. Really?

[ploto]

He only grabs one rebound every 6 1/2 minutes-- which is simply unbelievable! He made Rasho look like a rebounding stud!

[Kamnik]

I think his ceiling is around 19 pts, 48% shooting, 40% 3pts, 87% FT, 6.5 boards.

So you think his ceiling is basically being Dirk Nowitzki...

Nowitzki >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bargnani (now or ever)

Dirk is a fighter and a winner while Bargnani has worse in-head predispositions than Udrih.

[DPG21920]

People who called him Dirk way overreacted. I never said he would be MVP of the league or average 20 points 9 rebounds. I said that just because he got picked #1 in the draft, averaged double digits in his first two seasons, does not make him a bust. If he got picked #5 would he still be a bust. He is not a bad player. He has A TON TO LEARN, but has shown flashes.

So you think his ceiling is basically being Dirk Nowitzki...

Nowitzki >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bargnani (now or ever)

Dirk is a fighter and a winner while Bargnani has worse in-head predispositions than Udrih.

First of all, please read my posts before you comment.
Secondly, smilies are for little girls.
Lastly, since when did a CEILING of 19 pts, 6 rebounds for a player (which is what I said about Bargs) make him compare to Dirk when his AVERAGE for his career is 22 pts and 8 rebounds?

That is just the worst conclusion you can draw. I never said he is or will be Dirk. I said he has a ceiling below Dirk's career average. He is not the leader Dirk is, which means that even if he averages the same stats, he will not be the same player. If stats were the only thing that mattered, Vince Carter would be the best player.

[DPG21920]

Bump...

Bargnani is doing very well right now in preseason. I could not get the link to the box score for one of the games but these are his numbers so far:

15 pts, 8 reb on 50% shooting against the Cavs
15 pts, 5 reb on 42% shooting against the Knicks
10 pts, 1 reb on 50% shooting against the 76ers
22 pts, 4 reb on 54% shooting against the Wolves

Not too bad for him to start off the preseason. I think he is going to have a good year. 14 pts, 4 reb, 46% shooting and 38% from 3.

[lefty]

Bump...

Bargnani is doing very well right now in preseason. I could not get the link to the box score for one of the games but these are his numbers so far:

15 pts, 8 reb on 50% shooting against the Cavs
15 pts, 5 reb on 42% shooting against the Knicks
10 pts, 1 reb on 50% shooting against the 76ers
22 pts, 4 reb on 54% shooting against the Wolves

Not too bad for him to start off the preseason. I think he is going to have a good year. 14 pts, 4 reb, 46% shooting and 38% from 3.

I think he realized his career was going nowhere, so he is waking the up

[angelbelow]

hes still got time to turn it around and be a decent player.