Hakeem or Robinson

[ambchang]

You claim that a PF rebounding machine who's capable of defending multiple positions extremely well isnt an asset in terms of complementing a big man and then question someone else's knowledge of basketball? Way to expose your own lack of knowledge.

How the did Rodman "open up the game" for MJ? Big men who can receive the ball in the paint off penetration and finish at the rim are ideal complements to elite guards and Rodman was anything but that. Rodman's value to the Bulls was on the glass and on D, not "opening up the game for Jordan".

Guys like Duncan, Robinson, Hakeem, etc need that banger PF to complement them by doing dirty work, being able to guard the other team's bigman at times, crash the boards, and having their back when they go play help D. It helps them conserve energy and roam more defensively.

You'd think a fan of a team that won 2 les with a combination of Tim Duncan and David Robinson would understand the value of a great complementary bigman to a superstar big!!!!

Way to expose your own lack of knowledge.
Way to expose your own lack of watching the actual series.

[Slippy]

Thorpe was solid and underrated, no doubt. He did have a very good post game. Dude was a hoss too, he didnt miss games. I'd still take the Worm, even with his baggage.

I know it's hard for Spurs fans to look at the Worm's career without focusing on the dissapointments in SA, but he was a key piece to le teams the rest of his career. Things just didnt work out in the Alamo City for whatever reason. I think he needed more of a disciplinarian Coach like a Chuck Daly to keep him in line. Bob Hill was too much of a player's coach.

I bet Rodman would have been dynamite under Popovich...

he was dyanmite alright . That's why Pop the GM traded the cross-dressing clown out of SA for a reserve in Will Purdue. Rodman was his own team, the distractions weren't worth it.

ESPN is not gospel.

[Phenomanul]

[Rainman]

Regular season, yes.

Post season? Not even close.

Here is the breakdown for career postseason stats:

David Robinson: 18.1 PPG 10.6 RPG 48% FG 2.3 APG 2.3 BPG

Hakeem Olajuwon: 25.9 PPG 11.2 PPG 53% FG 3.2 APG 3.3 BPG

Saying Robinson is on par with Hakeem is as homeristic as a Wolves ban saying KG is on par with Duncan. Same argument, similar careers.

Olajuwon's game was tailor-made for post season success as he was a dominant big.

Robinson at no point in his career was dominant and his game which relied on cheap buckets was clearly inferior in the postseason when his stats consistently dipped from his regular season play each and every year because play was more physical and intense and the guy just had no reliable go to moves. Olajuwon was the opposite.

The Robinson-Olajuwon postseason spread is actually much wider than Kobe-MJ. Kobe does become a beast in the playoffs. David Robinson never did.

I watched both guys in their primes and Dream was the best big man of his era. He was far more skilled than Robinson and became even more dominant in the playoffs as his numbers show. Dream could do pretty much anything Robinson could do on the court. You can't say that Robinson could play like Dream if he wanted to. He just didn't have the same kind of ability on either end of the court. No offense to Spurs fans but Robinson should be compared to Ewing because they played more a face up jump shooter type of game while Dream could hit the J and dominate you in the post and than shut you down on the defensive side of the ball.

[Phenomanul]

I watched both guys in their primes and Dream was the best big man of his era. He was far more skilled than Robinson and became even more dominant in the playoffs as his numbers show. Dream could do pretty much anything Robinson could do on the court. You can't say that Robinson could play like Dream if he wanted to. He just didn't have the same kind of ability on either end of the court. No offense to Spurs fans but Robinson should be compared to Ewing because they played more a face up jump shooter type of game while Dream could hit the J and dominate you in the post and than shut you down on the defensive side of the ball.

Thanks for another subjective viewpoint. Respectfully, however, I'm will continue to disagree.

Just be thankful that Olojuwon was lucky enough to have the cast that he had in the thick of his prime. Without them he doesn't win any championships. Unfortunately for The Admiral, he wasn't as fortunate before his injury.

[Blake]

thanks for keeping this thread going.

hilarious.

[ambchang]

Gee, just when I thought the thread is close, there comes another person who obviously did not read the thread, based his/her arguments strictly on selective memory, and stated everything as facts.

So Rainman, either read through all the posts in the thread, or go look up the stats, career accomplishments, and awards of the three before saying anything, ok?

BTW Phenomanul, I guess haters will always be haters no matter what kind of numbers you bring up. To them, the world is black and white, a player (Hakeem) is absolutely better than another (Robinson) with no exceptions, unless a third player (Kobe) would appear to be largely inferior when using the same metrics as the 2nd player (Robinson).

Even my wife was asking me how many times I could argue on the same freaking topic, with the same arguments. But hey, it's not my fault that people come in with the same crap undermining the career accomplishments of one of the best centers of all-time.

[Many PackYao]

Thanks for another subjective viewpoint. Respectfully, however, I'm will continue to disagree.

Just be thankful that Olojuwon was lucky enough to have the cast that he had in the thick of his prime. Without them he doesn't win any championships. Unfortunately for The Admiral, he wasn't as fortunate before his injury.

And if Duncan never came along, Robinson wouldn't have any either.

[Admiral]

And if Duncan never came along, Robinson wouldn't have any either.

And if Tim had David's supporting cast, he wouldn't have any either. We can play this game all day.

[Phenomanul]

And if Duncan never came along, Robinson wouldn't have any either.

You're missing the point.... in fact you've missed it continually throughout the thread.

The fact that Robinson won championships with Duncan, doesn't make him any less of a player than if he hadn't won any at all.... ever... Think about that.

Unlike BSPN, I don't measure a player's capabilities solely by the number of championship rings on their fingers. Teams win championships; not individual players.

Shaq could have won 10 Championships in his career, and I would still consider Robinson the better player. Pre-injury Ronbinson was a more complete and versatile player than Shaq ever was... and Shaq was an amazing player. Conversely, Shaq has always had the benefit of playing alongside 'elite' teammates. By the same reasoning, if Jordan hadn't been paired up with complimentary and competent teammates, or Tex Winters 'offensive triangle' scheme, he would not have attained any championships either.... And we're talking about the greatest player of all time!!! I've clearly demonstrated that teammates matter, and no one can honestly refute that claim.

And no, the argument is not subjective; I could list every shot that those greats needed from their casts to keep their championship hopes alive during their le runs. In fact I stated that the Spurs have needed such daggers during their runs as well, because Duncan has also benefited from his teammates' clutch shots.

That's why the mindset when factoring the 'championship argument' into such a discussion should be to understand the context of how those championships were attained; and not blow it off altogether. History does matter. Teammates matter.

People quickly rank Olojuwon as being >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robinson simply because Olojuwon's Rockets beat Robinson's Spurs in their lone series back in 1995. Seeing that two of those games were decided by Hakeem's teammates (and not Olojuwon) it's rather ludicrous to suggest that the series outcome ultimately determined that Hakeem was a greater player than Robinson... The media nevertheless, proclaimed that message as truth (and continues to do so to this day).

But yes, I'm glad that David Robinson did work toward two championships, and that he was able to leave the game on top. But those two championships don't exclusively define him as a player, and they definitely don't define the caliber of his abilities.

[Many PackYao]

You're missing the point.... in fact you've missed it continually throughout the thread.

The fact that Robinson won championships with Duncan, doesn't make him any less of a player than if he hadn't won any at all.... ever... Think about that.

Unlike BSPN, I don't measure a player's capabilities solely by the number of championship rings on their fingers. Teams win championships; not individual players.

Shaq could have won 10 Championships in his career, and I would still consider Robinson the better player. Pre-injury Ronbinson was a more complete and versatile player than Shaq ever was... and Shaq was an amazing player. Conversely, Shaq has always had the benefit of playing alongside 'elite' teammates. By the same reasoning, if Jordan hadn't been paired up with complimentary and competent teammates, or Tex Winters 'offensive triangle' scheme, he would not have attained any championships either.... And we're talking about the greatest player of all time!!! I've clearly demonstrated that teammates matter, and no one can honestly refute that claim.

And no, the argument is not subjective; I could list every shot that those greats needed from their casts to keep their championship hopes alive during their le runs. In fact I stated that the Spurs have needed such daggers during their runs as well, because Duncan has also benefited from his teammates' clutch shots.

That's why the mindset when factoring the 'championship argument' into such a discussion should be to understand the context of how those championships were attained; and not blow it off altogether. History does matter. Teammates matter.

People quickly rank Olojuwon as being >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robinson simply because Olojuwon's Rockets beat Robinson's Spurs in their lone series back in 1995. Seeing that two of those games were decided by Hakeem's teammates (and not Olojuwon) it's rather ludicrous to suggest that the series outcome ultimately determined that Hakeem was a greater player than Robinson... The media nevertheless, proclaimed that message as truth (and continues to do so to this day).

But yes, I'm glad that David Robinson did work toward two championships, and that he was able to leave the game on top. But those two championships don't exclusively define him as a player, and they definitely don't define the caliber of his abilities.

I, for one don't care what the media says. As a Rockets fan I'm used to the media denigrating any Houston team's accomplishments.The Spurs of those years were a better overall ballclub because they did not live and die by the 3ball like the Rockets did. From what I saw in their reg season battles, Hakeem n Rob would do their thing while Houston's inconsistant shooters would lose the game.The Rockets had good records during those years because either Hakeem or Maxwell would bail them out on last second shots.You guys always talk about the Rockets' shooters, well Kenny was too inconsistant (30pts one night then 5 the next) and Mad Max was too erratic,although good in the clutch.

In the playoffs it was a combo of Houston's shooters stepping up and Hakeem taking it to another level.In all the times I watched Robinson, I've never seen him take it to the Superstar level when they needed him the most.Rob was a great player and he IS on Hakeems level, he's just lower in the ranking of great centers in my opinion.

[ambchang]

I, for one don't care what the media says. As a Rockets fan I'm used to the media denigrating any Houston team's accomplishments.The Spurs of those years were a better overall ballclub because they did not live and die by the 3ball like the Rockets did. From what I saw in their reg season battles, Hakeem n Rob would do their thing while Houston's inconsistant shooters would lose the game.The Rockets had good records during those years because either Hakeem or Maxwell would bail them out on last second shots.You guys always talk about the Rockets' shooters, well Kenny was too inconsistant (30pts one night then 5 the next) and Mad Max was too erratic,although good in the clutch.

In the playoffs it was a combo of Houston's shooters stepping up and Hakeem taking it to another level.In all the times I watched Robinson, I've never seen him take it to the Superstar level when they needed him the most.Rob was a great player and he IS on Hakeems level, he's just lower in the ranking of great centers in my opinion.

Perhaps you can enlightening us with how Robinson could score 35 ppg in the playoffs when teams are leaving Rodman and AJ wide open so that they could double/triple Robinson, and then leave Vinny Del Negro alone so that they can have a third/fourth player pack then lane and grab rebounds, then they could leave Sean Elliott alone because he couldn't hit any shots under pressure until 1999.

I am taking the effort to post the following for the 3rd or 4th time in this thread, so I would appreciate it if you could at least read it once.

The Spurs had huge trouble scoring from the perimeter in the mid 90s. Teams realized that and understand that the way to beat the Spurs is to leave the guys on the perimeter alone, and double/triple team Robinson. Thus, the lane is packed, and the Spurs can't score in the paint either.

The same exact situation happened in 04 vs. the Lakers. In the first two games, the Lakers did not pack the lane, and Duncan averaged 27 ppg on 64.5% shooting. In the next 4 games (all Spurs losses), Duncan averaged 17.5 ppg on 38.3% shooting.

Did he suddenly started to choke in the same freaking series? NO! The lane was packed, and the perimeter threats did NOTHING to open up the lane for him.

Hakeem didn't become successful without a great perimeter team around him. Shaq always had great shooters around him. Even Kareem and Wilt needed perimeter threats around him to be successful.

This is no secret. So stop pretending that you don't know.

[Many PackYao]

Perhaps you can enlightening us with how Robinson could score 35 ppg in the playoffs when teams are leaving Rodman and AJ wide open so that they could double/triple Robinson, and then leave Vinny Del Negro alone so that they can have a third/fourth player pack then lane and grab rebounds, then they could leave Sean Elliott alone because he couldn't hit any shots under pressure until 1999.

I am taking the effort to post the following for the 3rd or 4th time in this thread, so I would appreciate it if you could at least read it once.

The Spurs had huge trouble scoring from the perimeter in the mid 90s. Teams realized that and understand that the way to beat the Spurs is to leave the guys on the perimeter alone, and double/triple team Robinson. Thus, the lane is packed, and the Spurs can't score in the paint either.

The same exact situation happened in 04 vs. the Lakers. In the first two games, the Lakers did not pack the lane, and Duncan averaged 27 ppg on 64.5% shooting. In the next 4 games (all Spurs losses), Duncan averaged 17.5 ppg on 38.3% shooting.

Did he suddenly started to choke in the same freaking series? NO! The lane was packed, and the perimeter threats did NOTHING to open up the lane for him.

Hakeem didn't become successful without a great perimeter team around him. Shaq always had great shooters around him. Even Kareem and Wilt needed perimeter threats around him to be successful.

This is no secret. So stop pretending that you don't know.

Yeah, Avery was the guy to be left open on all the scouting reports.Sean was a good slasher/decent shooter and Avery could drive as he always gave the Rockets fits.It was just a matter of them stepping up which they didn't.
Anyways those were the same two guys (Avery and Sean) that made clutch shots during their first le run so I'm sure they were capable of doing it in '95.All in all, lets agree to disagree ok?

[ambchang]

Yeah, Avery was the guy to be left open on all the scouting reports.Sean was a good slasher/decent shooter and Avery could drive as he always gave the Rockets fits.It was just a matter of them stepping up which they didn't.
Anyways those were the same two guys (Avery and Sean) that made clutch shots during their first le run so I'm sure they were capable of doing it in '95.All in all, lets agree to disagree ok?

Well, they proved that they were not capable of doing it in 95, and that was it. This is not a subjective matter where we can agree or disagreed on, they did not step up.