The Admiral vs. Mr. Fundamental

[Solid D]

True, Admiral. Do y'all remember for almost 20 years, the NBA had a Pivotal Player award? It started out being the Schick Pivotal Player Award and then changed sponsors and became the IBM Award. The following mathematical formula was used to determine the winners:

Player pts + reb + ast + stl + bl - pf - to + (team wins X 10) X 250
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Team pts - fga + reb + ast + stl + bl - pf - to

A player's total points, plus rebounds, plus assists, plus steals, plus blocks, minus personal fouls, minus turnovers, plus 10 times the number of his team's wins, times 250. Then divided by the team's total points, plus field goal attempts, plus assists, plus steals, plus blocks, minus personal fouls, minus turnovers.

The award ended just as Tim Duncan was coming into his prime in 2001, so Timmy won the last IBM Award.

Here are the award winners.

Season Player Team
2001-02 Tim Duncan. . . . .San Antonio
2000-01 Shaquille O'Neal. .L.A. Lakers
1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal. .L.A. Lakers
1998-99 Dikembe Mutombo. . Atlanta
1997-98 Karl Malone. . . . Utah
1996-97 Grant Hill. . . . .Detroit
1995-96 David Robinson. . .San Antonio
1994-95 David Robinson. . .San Antonio
1993-94 David Robinson. . .San Antonio
1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon. . Houston
1991-92 Dennis Rodman. . . Detroit
1990-91 David Robinson. . .San Antonio
1989-90 David Robinson. . .San Antonio
1988-89 Michael Jordan. . .Chicago
1987-88 Charles Barkley. . Philadelphia
1986-87 Charles Barkley. . Philadelphia
1985-86 Charles Barkley. . Philadelphia
1984-85 Michael Jordan. . .Chicago
1983-84 Magic Johnson. . . L.A. Lakers

[koriwhat]

playing skunk is for pussies! you play until you win outright. and i always played up to 12 or 15 in a 1 on 1 scenario.

[dbreiden83080]

When Tim came up, David was recovering from a bad back.

And Duncan was a raw Rookie who had yet to even play an NBA game. Not even close to the powerhouse of dominance he was in his prime year of say 2003.

[century]

This is really stupid. Robinson is a pussy, Duncan is not.

[dbreiden83080]

This is really stupid. Robinson is a pussy, Duncan is not.

[remingtonbo2001]

David, 11-5.

David was a superior 1 on 1 defender than Duncan ever will be.

I remember David getting burned in the post, still to block the opposition's shot from behind.

David was so quick on his feet, he could block a shot 3-4 times in one possesion.

I think it's safe to say, David was the most athletic center of all-time. In a game of 1 on 1, athleticism wins.

[slayermin]

Since there is no shot clock, TD could just take his time and back Dave down to the low post each time he has the ball. But Dave could just use his superior athleticism and blow by TD unless TD just decides to give him the outside shot.

I think it would be a lot closer than some people think here.

In the end, I will go with the Admiral.

[dbreiden83080]

Since there is no shot clock, TD could just take his time and back Dave down to the low post each time he has the ball. But Dave could just use his superior athleticism and blow by TD unless TD just decides to give him the outside shot.

I think it would be a lot closer than some people think here.

In the end, I will go with the Admiral.

I'm sure they would both get games off eachother. On days Timmy had his jumpshot down and his footwork tight, he'd likely get the better of it. On days where Timmy was a bit off, i'm sure David would use his physical advantages to give Timmy fits. I don't see this as a blowout either way but i do see Timmy as overall being the better basketball player.

[ulosturedge]

Theres too many people here not qualified to answer. If you didn't see David in his prime then you lack information.

It annoys me to no end seeing the same arguments being made in Timmys favor. You can automatically tell alot of them never saw David in his prime.

Quit bringing up the ring argument...

The supporting cast Duncan had compared to Robinson don't compare. Not only that but how about the Coaching? The groundwork and defensive philosphies were already laid out when Duncan joined the team. Robinson went through what like 6 or 7 coaches in his career? Who all had different ideas of how to try and make a championship. The winning recipe for the Spurs took Davids entire career with Pop finally finding something that worked. David was like the guinea pig while Duncan came in and sealed the deal. This man on man defense then playing zone, dump the ball inside then back out, and mixing things up; all this wasn't perfected until near the end of Robinsons career. The way Duncan watches double teams and finds the open man.. do you think he thought of that all himself? Naw it was from years of Pop watching Robinson getting double teamed to death when Pop figured out things needed to be changed up. Thats when Pop tells Tim this is what I want you to do for us.

Also anyone ever think maybe the first Championship is the hardest? After that you just repeat the same philosophies and hope they hold up for the most part. And now you have complete mentality change. From people who have never won a championship(David's career) to people who know what it takes to win and have experience(Tim's career). Two totally different worlds.

I'm 31 and I saw David's entire career as well as Tim's. They both are amazing players. David did things that Tim can't do and Tim does things David can't do. David is no doubt the better athlete while Tim is the more versatile. David has the better defense and dunking power hands down. Tim has the better all around game and a killer instinct in his play.

All I know if you younger guys had the pleasure of seeing DRob play in his prime you would have seen how much of a beast he was. You guys know how people say Spurs are boring to watch with Mr.Fundamental blah blah blah... well that wasn't the case in David's era. The dude was tearing down rims, blocking shots, and just punishing people night after night. I'm glad I had the pleasure to witness it.

I'm just tired of people writing David off. He helped pave the way for the Spurs franchise and he was every bit as good as Tim Duncan as a basketball player. No doubt.

[jack sommerset]

Timmay would win. Can't believe how close the vote is

[urunobili]

If we take both at age 27 at their prime.. i think the Admiral would have lunch on Tim.. he'd win 11-7 probably or something...

[Slippy]

This is a debate i would avoid like the plague. Both guys are special in their own right. One thing we can't ignore. If Dave had teammates like Tony and Manu in his prime, the spurs would have more rings to show-off.

[spursjustice]

I've watched Robinson play from the beginning to the end of his career. Seen Duncan play from his 3rd season at Wake Forest to now. I am comparing both players during their prime.

Duncan had the better fundamental skill set, footwork, superior back-to-the-basket game, ball handling abilities. David had the better face up game (he had the ability to run down the floor, catch a pass and pull up for a jumpshot), his post moves were not as abundant as Duncan's, but he had that beautiful baseline turnaround jumpshot which was more than useful. Then there's his freakish athletic ability... I think, David is the better scorer which is due to his superior athletic ability but, Duncan is the better offensive player because of his polished post moves. Duncan could have probably averaged as many points as David if he wanted too... but we all know that's not his style and this is besides the point...

Defensively, Duncan uses his high basketball IQ and guards to lane. He usually plays the percentages and uses his exceptional timing to block and defend shots. Robinson too guards the lane. He also has a high bball IQ. However, I've seen him guard a PG in isolation sets that resulted in a steal or block to David on numerous occasions. This basically mean, David not only had the size and length to disrupt Tim's post moves, but the quickness, speed and strength to stay in front of Tim after some fancy footwork. Duncan on the other hand doesn't really have the quickness to stay with Dave. I am guessing that he would probably play the percentages and give Dave some space. In which Dave would probably exploit.

It's a tough one but I think Dave wins 11-9...

[Brutalis]

This is really stupid. Robinson is a pussy, Duncan is not.

David was so quick on his feet, he could block a shot 3-4 times in one possesion.

Saw him do that several times. The energy you have to muster to get up over and over was amazing.

[Brutalis]

Considering D-Rob taught Duncan half of everything he probably knows, I am reminded of Obi Wan and Anakin.

And nevermind!

[Kobe24Forever]

One would only have to reference the 1995 playoffs when Hakeem school David in his MVP year. Tim would have the same effect with his footwork and solid fundamentals.

Despite all of his talents, David never had a go to offensive move. Tim would win probably 11-6, probably worse if make it take was in action.

Tim is Mr Fundamental, pretty much what Robinson was, but Robinson is more athletic, they play equally good defense in some ways, Hakeem would take Duncan to school just like he did to Robinson simply because he has a jumper, and a wider repertoire of offensive moves than both combined, you can't call Hakeem Fundamental because he's not, he's unpredictable and don't rely on bank shots.

[mrspurs]

Timmy would only dream of being as quick as Drob. Drob was a better scorer, rebounder, shot blocker. Drob is also twice as smart. Timmy is lucky to have played next to Drob. Now in todays NBA, Timmy could really use someone like Drob. Timmy doesnt play well when left alone like these past couple of seasons. Having Fab and Kurt=playing alone.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Timmy is lucky to have played next to Drob. Now in todays NBA, Timmy could really use someone like Drob.

Who wouldn't?

[Admidave50]

Damn I missed this poll that was really closed.

I would have voted for my man The Admiral for sure!

[21+20+9=50]

Did you guys forget what Hakeem did to David Robinson in the playoffs, Duncan in his prime was kind of like that, so i would say Duncan over DROB both being in their prime...

[Rynospursfan]

Damn I missed this poll that was really closed.

I would have voted for my man The Admiral for sure!

Me too. Tim would have to resort to packing it in and giving Dave the mid range shot, he might even have to start jacking up some twos to catch up. David is the better one on one player. Tim is the better team player.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

There's a huge difference between a real game, where a low-post player can set up on the block and then get fed the ball, and a 1-on-1 game, where you have to get there yourself from the top of the key. It wouldn't be easy, and I loves me some Timmah, but I think Five-Oh has the edge in this fantasy scenario: he was longer, quicker, and a bit stronger, with insane hops. DRob could take more chances on D and recover more quickly, and get more rebounds with his length and quickness. And don't forget the 71-pt. game.
Fun to imagine, but I'm just glad they were both on our side.

Of course, in the context of real NBA ball games, Timmy is the better offensive player, and DRob said so himself more than once.

David.

Duncan couldn't have guarded David. David was faster than Dirk and Duncan can't guard Dirk. And David could have defended Duncan and lot better than Duncan could have defended him...

As for Hakeem, he didn't just do that to David, he did it to everyone, and he'd have done it to Duncan if Duncan had been around.

Plus...Hakeem didn't score as many points on David as Amare scored on Tim...

Watching Duncan guard Amare is a pretty good indicator of what it would have been like for Duncan to guard David...

Except for the fact that David is bigger, stronger, can jump higher, and dunk better than Amare.

Plus he's about one million times the defender Amare is.

That David didn't have go to offensive move is ludicrous, the man won a scoring le and dropped 71 points in a game. The only people that say he couldn't score are people that never saw him play. He could score. In fact he was one of the best scoring bigmen in NBA history.

He scored more points at a higher PCT than Duncan did through the first 7 years of his career.

I've watched Robinson play from the beginning to the end of his career. Seen Duncan play from his 3rd season at Wake Forest to now. I am comparing both players during their prime.

Duncan had the better fundamental skill set, footwork, superior back-to-the-basket game, ball handling abilities. David had the better face up game (he had the ability to run down the floor, catch a pass and pull up for a jumpshot), his post moves were not as abundant as Duncan's, but he had that beautiful baseline turnaround jumpshot which was more than useful. Then there's his freakish athletic ability... I think, David is the better scorer which is due to his superior athletic ability but, Duncan is the better offensive player because of his polished post moves. Duncan could have probably averaged as many points as David if he wanted too... but we all know that's not his style and this is besides the point...

Defensively, Duncan uses his high basketball IQ and guards to lane. He usually plays the percentages and uses his exceptional timing to block and defend shots. Robinson too guards the lane. He also has a high bball IQ. However, I've seen him guard a PG in isolation sets that resulted in a steal or block to David on numerous occasions. This basically mean, David not only had the size and length to disrupt Tim's post moves, but the quickness, speed and strength to stay in front of Tim after some fancy footwork. Duncan on the other hand doesn't really have the quickness to stay with Dave. I am guessing that he would probably play the percentages and give Dave some space. In which Dave would probably exploit.

It's a tough one but I think Dave wins 11-9...

Now those were three great posts.

I say TD 15-14 - he is a cleaner ball handler than David ever was, and that's crucial in 1-on-1. Sadly, I think Hakeem might do them both, but only in epic matches. Add Shaq and Patrick as the whipping boys, and that would be one uva 1-on-1 tourney!

BTW, I think some of your are forgetting just how quick and athletic the young, pre-serious injury Timmy D was. Go back and watch his first 4 seasons.

[Phenomanul]

Did you guys forget what Hakeem did to David Robinson in the playoffs, Duncan in his prime was kind of like that, so i would say Duncan over DROB both being in their prime...

One series does not define their caliber.

I guess many people forget that Robinson had his share of dunks over Hakeem in that series; only reason that tidbit of history is forgotten is that the Spurs lost the series.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Tim is Mr Fundamental, pretty much what Robinson was, but Robinson is more athletic, they play equally good defense in some ways, Hakeem would take Duncan to school just like he did to Robinson simply because he has a jumper, and a wider repertoire of offensive moves than both combined, you can't call Hakeem Fundamental because he's not, he's unpredictable and don't rely on bank shots.

i dont think duncan would get schooled like drob

duncan doesnt jump on every pumpfake like drob does...

[duncan228]

BTW, I think some of your are forgetting just how quick and athletic the young, pre-serious injury Timmy D was. Go back and watch his first 4 seasons.

Thanks Ruff. I agree that lots of people aren't giving Robinson the credit he's due, but the flip of that is that some are forgetting how outstanding Duncan was in his prime. His back-to-back MVP seasons alone shouldn't be discounted. He did something incredible in '03, with his second regular season MVP, the Championship, and the Finals MVP. It was an amazing year.

And re-watching Duncan in his prime is always a good idea.