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I'm "ranting" about you guys saying life begins at conception.
Have you read the thread?
I think the conservatives are in agreement that, regardless of what we "want"; abortion is NOT going to be outlawed. It is off the table.
I don't what you're ranting about with Sperm cells.
I'm "ranting" about you guys saying life begins at conception.
In terms of how God views them, yes.
Meh...
Seeing as I am arguing with someone who cites God as a source of empirical information, and says opinions like "life begins at conception", Ill just have to go ahead and live with myself after I consider the source.
And what do YOU say happens at conception?
One cell is integrated into another.
...and the result is.....
Do you think then that God would view the inevitable shedding of innocent blood in war as unavoidable collateral damage, which while unpleasant still doesn't make ending the war a moral necessity? Would God support human pre-emptive strikes that include collateral damage?
You mean after weeks where there is no cell differentiation? I would say that after cell differentiation begins, then maybe it becomes a human. Hard to speak on the subject when I haven't researched it in serious depth.
Depends on your definition of life.
To me, life begins at consciousness. That is a debate. But not according to some here.
Slippery slope, DR; is someone in a COMA alive? Asleep?
Define consciousness. When I push on my wife's belly, and the baby kicks, is that conscious? A 15 IQ?
And I never said "A Human Being" - I said "Life" or extrapolated "Human Life". I do not deny that their is debate, but I do believe it to be intellectually dishonest. At conception, the resultant embryo is small, only a few cells, but is "human life". It ain't a cow or an oak tree; it's not gonna grow into anything BUT a human. How the else can we farm Human cells from it?
Why is the integration of cells the point where life begins? Why doesn't it begin when the sperm enter the vagina?
Gastrulation begins on the seventh day.
Dude, you need to call your dad, and ask him to tell you the, now this is important, don't get it wrong:
"Birds and Beas" talk.
He'll know what I mean.
How did I get dragged into this?
Maybe I should spell it out for ya. You're not ending a human life if you "abort" right after conception. You're aborting the possibility of a human life. Again I don't know enough about the biology (nice google search regarding gastrulation) to claim to know when things like the brain and heart form or when there is unarguable evidence of human traits.
Didn't Google; opened one of my Wife's books.
Fair enough.
The "when life begins" argument will never be settled. I've listened to people argue this point for 30 years now and it's extremely rare to see someone change their views when the opposition presents theirs. For me, the difference is in how one views the quality and dimensions of a life. I'm pro-choice, but I don't celebrate abortion-- it's always going to be a difficult decision in a person's life. But if I was presented with a scenario where I had to choose between saving the life of a 2 year old child or a 2 month old fetus, I would choose the 2 year old... not because the 2 month old fetus isn't deserving of respect, but because I view the 2 year old as somehow more alive. And I feel the same way about those rare giving-birth scenarios where the birth is a difficult, troubled situation and the doctor has to choose between saving the life of the mother or the life of the child-- it's not an easy or fun decision to make, but I would choose saving the life of the mother.
I think this issue (especially on internet forums) brings out the worst in many people. Subtlety and the ability to admit conflicted feelings about a difficult topic are rarely allowed to be discussed because the loudest throng of voices are too busy angrily calling each other names.
Good post.
FWIW; I've never heard anybody argue that the two year old child, nor the mother's lives were less valuable than the fetus's.
Whoa whoa whoa....
Everything you just said, I agree with (except the coma analogy, I think we agree on that one hands down).
My point was JJ says there is "no debate" on this issue, summarily dismissing the entire argument out of hand on the basis that his belief says life begins at contraception.
I was playing devil's advocate in the sense that just because one says there is no argument, the fact that this thread has reached 3 pages proves otherwise.
I stated my personal belief on what life is (in human terms, not animal or insect). That doesnt mean I support abortion, or that I would abort an unplanned pregnancy. Quite the opposite in fact.
But I am of the mind that the government has no business in "moral law".
Whomever reads that line, please do not extrapolate that into "what about murder?" because thats a weak argument.
Abortion and sexual couples are two things I deem the government to be "out of". Let the locals determine their merits. The moment the Supreme Court ruled on abortion it cemented it as lawful forever across the land.
So what if a pregnant mother had to travel to another state to get a legitimate abortion (as opposed to a back alley)? Nobody said life was easy or free, you made the decision, you live with the consequences of that.
Should abortion be covered by insurance? Unless its a health-related issue, of course not.
Its people like JJ who piss me off. So covinced of their own moral superiority that pushing their will upon the masses, and what that means to be free, is of little importance to them. So long as society conforms to their chosen path, their chosen moral code, everything is fine. No equivalence, no debate, no openmindedness or respect for others personal belief systems.
Its Jesus Christ and Christianity or eternal damnation. With such a limited view on life, I shudder to think of their daily interactions with (*gasp*) other people! "The mongrels! The heathens! The outrage on daily basis they must endure!"
"All this immorality must be cleansed! We will legislate our belief unto them, by choice or by force! We are righteous! The Bible told us so!"
That sort of crap belong in works of fiction or accounts of Middle Age history, not the here and now. But suffice to say, Im sure he cares what a moral-less, heathen like me thinks as much as I care what a bible-thumping, simplistic sheep like he does.
The difference is, I am willing to accept his existence in my world. He on the other hand....
To more directly answer this post, I was trying to delineate the difference between a few thousand cells smaller than a ping-pong ball and a baby in the womb with the ability to have rudimentary limb control.
Re-reading that above paragraph doesnt make it any more clear. Basically, the fetus is a cellular blob for the first trimester that takes little shape (no research, just memory here). Afterwords, it has legs, hands, eyes, a brain.
I guess the brain could be used as a precursor.
Honestly, Ive never given this much thought. The whole "there is no debate about this" thing is what pissed me off.
Thanks. I've heard the Mother/child debate from others, and in a philosophy class 20 years ago. The main purpose of these analogies is just to show that most of us would gauge different levels of "life" to people in real situations. Philosophies from Socrates to utilitarianism have used these types of questions when discussing moral decisions. One I've heard a lot is this scenario: if you were a fireman entering a burning building to look for two people but those people were on opposite sides of the building and you were pretty sure that you'd only be able to save one... which one would you save? What if you knew that one was the world's leading heart surgeon and the other was a 70 year old wino with terminal cancer? Is it fair to say the Surgeon's life is "more valuable" than the wino's? .... questions of that sort. I absolutely understand the view that a 3 day old fetus is a life, but I would find it very difficult to say that fetus is on an equal level with a 30 year old woman or a 10 year old child, and I wouldn't hesitate for a second to say that I find the lives of the latter two more sacred than that of the 3 day old fetus.
We might have been in the same class; never mind, for me it was 19 years ago.
Considering the source?
This from someone who threw the Bible away after reading a couple of pages (tell me, is it true that ignorance is bliss?)."Arguing with someone who cites God";
You're dsyfunctional in this area to the extent that when your submitted opinions can't possibly come across in a way other than making you look like a total clown.
"Sorry if that bothers you".
Oh, hate to bring it up again, but you cited the facts I posted earlier as "opinion". I'm still waiting for you to take apart my "facts" with facts of you own (I won't hold my breath).
I'll post this again for "those like" you and shasta who think life beginning at conception is opinion; (apologies to the majority who have already read it, and to those that don't argue the point)
The facts are in: life begins at conception
When does human life begin?
The most distinguished scientific meeting of recent years that considered this question in depth was the First International Conference on Abortion, held in Washington D.C., in October 1967. It brought together authorities from around the world in the fields of medicine, law, ethics and social sciences. The first major question considered by the medical group was, "When does human life begin?" Their unanimous conclusion (19-1) was as follows: "The majority of our group could find no point in time between the union of the sperm and the egg, or at least the blastocyst stage, at which point we could say that this was not human life." They continued, "The changes occurring between implantation, a six-week embryo, a six-month fetus, a one-week child and a mature adult are merely stages of development and maturation." (This quotation is taken from Handbook on Abortion by Dr. J.C. Willke.)
Some More Quotations
"It is now of unquestionable certainty that a human being comes into existence precisely at the moment when the sperm combines with the egg. When the sperm and egg nuclei unite, all the characteristics, such as colour of eyes, hair, skin, that make a unique personality are laid down determinatively." Dr. H. Ratner, Report April 1966.
"From the moment a baby is conceived, it bears the indelible stamp of a separate distinct personality, an individual different from all other individuals." Ultrasound pioneer, Sir William Liley, M.D. 1967.
"The birth of a human life really occurs at the moment the mother's cell is fertilized by one of the father's sperm cells." Life magazine, "Drama of Life before Birth," April 1965.
"A baby who has just been born is not brand new; he already has a life story. Human life begins when the sperm of the father enters the ovum or egg of the mother." The Life Cycle Library for Young People.
"When the sperm and egg fuse, the newly-formed cell has conferred upon it the degree of Sapiens, with all the rights and privileges pertaining." (Note, "Rights and Privileges.") Peter Amenta, Ph.D. Professor of Embryology, Hahnemann Medical School.
"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at conception. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence, from conception to adulthood, and any interruption at any point throughout this time cons utes the termination of a human life." Dr. A.M. Bongioanni, professor of obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania.
"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into existence. This is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception." Dr. Jerome Lejeune, genetics professor at the University of Descartes, Paris. He discovered the Down syndrome chromosome.
"It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception." Professor M. Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School.
"By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic.
"I oppose abortion. I do so, first because I accept what is biologically manifest - human life commences at the time of conception - and secondly, because I believe it is wrong to take an innocent human life under any cir stances." Dr. Landrum Shettles, pioneer in sperm biology.
http://www.theinterim.com/1999/oct/15frted.html
Last edited by jochhejaam; 09-20-2008 at 10:29 AM. Reason: edited out monkeys :)
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