The Admiral vs. Mr. Fundamental

[duncan228]

Oh, and a minor correction. It's not Mr. Fundamental, it's The Big Fundamental.

[Brutalis]

Oh, and a minor correction. It's not Mr. Fundamental, it's The Big Fundamental.

D-Rob called him Mr. Fundamental in a post game interview in 2003. I forget what game but it was on ESPN.

Oh and since this is my poll and thread, I officially make the results 105-105 because of the two posters above.

[HarlemHeat37]

Robinson is probably the most underrated superstar player in NBA history..definitely underappreciated..

talent-wise? I'll go with Robinson..I don't think there are many big men that have been more talented than David Robinson..he's probably a top 5 defensive player of all-time as well..unbelievable build and athleticism, underrated jump shot, great team player..

who I would take on my team? Tim Duncan..I know a lot of Spurs fans don't like to admit this, but Dave was a choker..it's sad, but he WAS when you compare him to the other greats..looking at his playoff numbers compared to his regular season numbers, David Robinson had many playoff moments where he choked..he had many games IN HIS PRIME where he didn't come up big for our team..

don't give me the supporting cast argument..that doesn't explain Tim's killer instinct..it appears that many people see the names "Parker and Ginobili" and forget how good they actually were in 2003..not very good..Duncan led an average supporting cast(in comparison to other championship teams) to a le..the rest of the team shot around 41%(IIRC) in the playoffs, while Tim led our team in PPG, RPG, APG, BPG and 2nd in FG%..the guy absolutely carried a team with NO other player that was even NEARLY all-star caliber and he won us a le..he had one of the most dominant finals of all-time..that's Tim's killer instinct right there..that's Duncan at his finest..that's why we trust him..

[Slippy]

don't give me the supporting cast argument..that doesn't explain Tim's killer instinct..it appears that many people see the names "Parker and Ginobili" and forget how good they actually were in 2003..not very good..Duncan led an average supporting cast(in comparison to other championship teams) to a le..the rest of the team shot around 41%(IIRC) in the playoffs, while Tim led our team in PPG, RPG, APG, BPG and 2nd in FG%..the guy absolutely carried a team with NO other player that was even NEARLY all-star caliber and he won us a le..he had one of the most dominant finals of all-time..that's Tim's killer instinct right there..that's Duncan at his finest..that's why we trust him..

Not downplaying Duncan's contribution in 03 just that you're the one forgetting how good that team was. We have seen a number of centers tried out since then and none of them have come close to replacing the DROB of 03. SJax and Bruce Bowen are certainly not your average players and Speedy claxton to this day is the best back-up PG the Spurs have had in backing up Parker. Then look at the list of other back-ups Danny Ferry, Steve Smith, Steve Kerr, Kevin Willis and Malik Rose. You want veteran leadership, shooting ability or energy it was all covered. Of all the championship teams the 03 team was the best.

[baseline bum]

Wow. How the is this poll close? Duncan by a mile.

EDIT: My bad, didn't see this was for a 1 on 1 game.

[ambchang]

Just because Duncan was great in the playoffs doesn't mean Robinson choked in the playoffs.
I really don't want to pull out all the numbers in his supposedly choked playoffs out and let you know that it was strictly against the Jazz and Rockets, where they had a very different way of defending the Spurs, that Robinson's numbers declined.

[HarlemHeat37]

Not downplaying Duncan's contribution in 03 just that you're the one forgetting how good that team was. We have seen a number of centers tried out since then and none of them have come close to replacing the DROB of 03. SJax and Bruce Bowen are certainly not your average players and Speedy claxton to this day is the best back-up PG the Spurs have had in backing up Parker. Then look at the list of other back-ups Danny Ferry, Steve Smith, Steve Kerr, Kevin Willis and Malik Rose. You want veteran leadership, shooting ability or energy it was all covered. Of all the championship teams the 03 team was the best.

the team was full of great ROLE PLAYERS..but how many teams in NBA history have won les without a 2nd all-star caliber player? not many..the only one's that have in the 90's and 2000's were Hakeem's 1st, and Duncan's 2003 team..that speaks volumes on how much Tim carried this team..

it's IMPOSSIBLE to win a le with a poor supporting cast, or even average..I'm comparing it to OTHER le teams, where Duncan's supporting cast clearly pales in comparison..

just look at the playoff numbers..out of the guys that played over 100 minutes in the playoffs..

Tony Parker: 40% FG
Stephen Jackson: 41% FG
Manu Ginobili: 38.5% FG
Malik Rose: 42% FG
Bruce Bowen: 37% FG
Speedy Claxton: 44% FG
Danny Ferry: 29% FG

David Robinson was the only one with a great FG%, and he even missed a game in these playoffs..

Tim played 9 minutes per game more than any other player on the team..he averaged 10 more PPG than any other player..he averaged 9 more RPG than any other player..he averaged 2 more APG than any other player..he averaged around 2 more BPG than any other player..

this is a guy that was the focus of the defense every game, with no 2nd option to relieve pressure in most of the games..Tim was being double teamed and still dominated, and that's where his teammates contributions kicked in..

just some random Tim games in those playoffs..

game 1 of the NBA finals: 32 PTS, 20 REBS, 7 BLKS, 6 ASTS, 3 STLS, 11-17
game 6 NBA finals: 21 PTS, 20 REBS, 10 ASTS, 8 BLKS
game 1 vs. Dallas: 40 PTS, 15 REBS, 7 ASTS, 14-20
game 2 vs. Dallas: 32 PTS, 15 REBS, 5 ASTS, 3 BLKS
game 3 vs. Dallas: 34 PTS, 24 REBS, 6 ASTS, 6 BLKS, 2 STLS
game 4 vs. Dallas: 21 PTS, 20 REBS, 7 ASTS, 4 BLKS
game 4 vs. LA: 36 PTS, 9 REBS, 5 ASTS, 16-20 FT
game 6 vs. LA: 37 PTS, 16 REBS, 4 ASTS, 2 BLKS
game 5 vs. Phoenix: 23 PTS, 17 REBS, 6 ASTS, 5 BLKS
game 6 vs. Phoenix: 15 PTS, 20 REBS, 10 ASTS, 5 BLKS

these are just the completely dominant games, where he dominated every part of the game..not counting the great games he had, just the dominance..people forget how dominant Tim was in his prime..this was a time where he didn't have anybody else that could consistently create for themselves..where he completely dominated every team on both sides of the floor, drew double teams and got his teammates involved..he did absolutely everything on the floor at an elite level..

the difference between Tim and David, is that Tim in his prime was always reliable in the playoffs..

[Slippy]

the team was full of great ROLE PLAYERS..but how many teams in NBA history have won les without a 2nd all-star caliber player? not many..the only one's that have in the 90's and 2000's were Hakeem's 1st, and Duncan's 2003 team..that speaks volumes on how much Tim carried this team..

it's IMPOSSIBLE to win a le with a poor supporting cast, or even average..I'm comparing it to OTHER le teams, where Duncan's supporting cast clearly pales in comparison..

just look at the playoff numbers..out of the guys that played over 100 minutes in the playoffs..

Tony Parker: 40% FG
Stephen Jackson: 41% FG
Manu Ginobili: 38.5% FG
Malik Rose: 42% FG
Bruce Bowen: 37% FG
Speedy Claxton: 44% FG
Danny Ferry: 29% FG

David Robinson was the only one with a great FG%, and he even missed a game in these playoffs..

Tim played 9 minutes per game more than any other player on the team..he averaged 10 more PPG than any other player..he averaged 9 more RPG than any other player..he averaged 2 more APG than any other player..he averaged around 2 more BPG than any other player..

this is a guy that was the focus of the defense every game, with no 2nd option to relieve pressure in most of the games..Tim was being double teamed and still dominated, and that's where his teammates contributions kicked in..

just some random Tim games in those playoffs..

game 1 of the NBA finals: 32 PTS, 20 REBS, 7 BLKS, 6 ASTS, 3 STLS, 11-17
game 6 NBA finals: 21 PTS, 20 REBS, 10 ASTS, 8 BLKS
game 1 vs. Dallas: 40 PTS, 15 REBS, 7 ASTS, 14-20
game 2 vs. Dallas: 32 PTS, 15 REBS, 5 ASTS, 3 BLKS
game 3 vs. Dallas: 34 PTS, 24 REBS, 6 ASTS, 6 BLKS, 2 STLS
game 4 vs. Dallas: 21 PTS, 20 REBS, 7 ASTS, 4 BLKS
game 4 vs. LA: 36 PTS, 9 REBS, 5 ASTS, 16-20 FT
game 6 vs. LA: 37 PTS, 16 REBS, 4 ASTS, 2 BLKS
game 5 vs. Phoenix: 23 PTS, 17 REBS, 6 ASTS, 5 BLKS
game 6 vs. Phoenix: 15 PTS, 20 REBS, 10 ASTS, 5 BLKS

these are just the completely dominant games, where he dominated every part of the game..not counting the great games he had, just the dominance..people forget how dominant Tim was in his prime..this was a time where he didn't have anybody else that could consistently create for themselves..where he completely dominated every team on both sides of the floor, drew double teams and got his teammates involved..he did absolutely everything on the floor at an elite level..

the difference between Tim and David, is that Tim in his prime was always reliable in the playoffs..

Not disputing Tim's dominance just the burden he took on compared to other championship teams. FG percentages and role playing aren't indicitive of how deep and talented that 03 team was. They all stepped up when it mattered.

Tim, had other scorers in SJax, Parker and Manu to share the load. He had shooters knock down big shots giving him the space and freedom to dominate with single coverage. On the defensive end he had Dave anchoring the middle guarding key bigs, in turn helping him avoid foul trouble and flourish as a help defender. Can't discount the presense of Bruce Bowen on the perimeter either. To top it off, the team had energy guys in Speedy, Manu and Malik all have key moments to pick up the pace.

These aspects are contributions that have been missing in recent failures. Individually the stats may not back it up but as a collective whole the 03 team just beat you down.

[Phenomanul]

the team was full of great ROLE PLAYERS..but how many teams in NBA history have won les without a 2nd all-star caliber player? not many..the only one's that have in the 90's and 2000's were Hakeem's 1st, and Duncan's 2003 team..that speaks volumes on how much Tim carried this team..

it's IMPOSSIBLE to win a le with a poor supporting cast, or even average..I'm comparing it to OTHER le teams, where Duncan's supporting cast clearly pales in comparison..

just look at the playoff numbers..out of the guys that played over 100 minutes in the playoffs..

Tony Parker: 40% FG
Stephen Jackson: 41% FG
Manu Ginobili: 38.5% FG
Malik Rose: 42% FG
Bruce Bowen: 37% FG
Speedy Claxton: 44% FG
Danny Ferry: 29% FG

David Robinson was the only one with a great FG%, and he even missed a game in these playoffs..

Tim played 9 minutes per game more than any other player on the team..he averaged 10 more PPG than any other player..he averaged 9 more RPG than any other player..he averaged 2 more APG than any other player..he averaged around 2 more BPG than any other player..

this is a guy that was the focus of the defense every game, with no 2nd option to relieve pressure in most of the games..Tim was being double teamed and still dominated, and that's where his teammates contributions kicked in..

just some random Tim games in those playoffs..

game 1 of the NBA finals: 32 PTS, 20 REBS, 7 BLKS, 6 ASTS, 3 STLS, 11-17
game 6 NBA finals: 21 PTS, 20 REBS, 10 ASTS, 8 BLKS
game 1 vs. Dallas: 40 PTS, 15 REBS, 7 ASTS, 14-20
game 2 vs. Dallas: 32 PTS, 15 REBS, 5 ASTS, 3 BLKS
game 3 vs. Dallas: 34 PTS, 24 REBS, 6 ASTS, 6 BLKS, 2 STLS
game 4 vs. Dallas: 21 PTS, 20 REBS, 7 ASTS, 4 BLKS
game 4 vs. LA: 36 PTS, 9 REBS, 5 ASTS, 16-20 FT
game 6 vs. LA: 37 PTS, 16 REBS, 4 ASTS, 2 BLKS
game 5 vs. Phoenix: 23 PTS, 17 REBS, 6 ASTS, 5 BLKS
game 6 vs. Phoenix: 15 PTS, 20 REBS, 10 ASTS, 5 BLKS

these are just the completely dominant games, where he dominated every part of the game..not counting the great games he had, just the dominance..people forget how dominant Tim was in his prime..this was a time where he didn't have anybody else that could consistently create for themselves..where he completely dominated every team on both sides of the floor, drew double teams and got his teammates involved..he did absolutely everything on the floor at an elite level..

the difference between Tim and David, is that Tim in his prime was always reliable in the playoffs..

Great summary....

All I have to say is that the Spurs probably don't get that ring if SJax doesn't hit clutch threes in the Dallas series... or how about that gem from Steve Kerr in the clincher of that same series... Or Ginobili's game turning steal/breakaway dunk/dagger 3 against the Nets in the Finals. Or even Robinson's 13 point, 17 rebound, 2 block performance in the Finals clincher. Tim's teammates stepped up when it mattered. David's never did.

If David didn't have better playoff statistics it's only because none of his teammates could ever open up the floor to keep the defense honest.... especially in the clutch. His playoff failures don't define his true caliber as a player.

I love Tim to death... but in a one on one, both in their primes constest, David would beat Tim. There's no doubt in my mind that this would be the outcome.

Having said that; "It's all speculative anyways..."

[SpurSupremacist]

IF it makes you guys feel any better...DRob might be the last guy I'd ever pick as a GM or coach...and Duncan would be among the first(out of bigmen, I take him after I take Horry)

I regret to inform you that your credibility has been foreclosed.

[Manufan909]

Just to prevent you from getting raped by whottt, he meant to COACH OR MANAGE. not if he was coach or gm, and was looking for players.

[Brutalis]

Not disputing Tim's dominance just the burden he took on compared to other championship teams. FG percentages and role playing aren't indicitive of how deep and talented that 03 team was. They all stepped up when it mattered.

Tim, had other scorers in SJax, Parker and Manu to share the load. He had shooters knock down big shots giving him the space and freedom to dominate with single coverage. On the defensive end he had Dave anchoring the middle guarding key bigs, in turn helping him avoid foul trouble and flourish as a help defender. Can't discount the presense of Bruce Bowen on the perimeter either. To top it off, the team had energy guys in Speedy, Manu and Malik all have key moments to pick up the pace.

These aspects are contributions that have been missing in recent failures. Individually the stats may not back it up but as a collective whole the 03 team just beat you down.

My thoughts exactly.

[SpurSupremacist]

It's Duncan, hands down.

Blah blah blah, Robinson didn't have the teammates. Neither did Allen Iverson. He gets traded to the Nuggets, they're sure to win now! Right? Yeah. Cry me a river, man. He didn't have what it takes. Tim does.

In 2003, he took a bunch of rookies to a championship, against one of the biggest powerhouses in NBA history... and he dominated them. Robinson? He got absolutely obliterated by Hakeem and was shown who the real MVP was.

And don't give the bull excuse that Robinson didn't care, and he was such a great guy. If he was, he would never have tried to score 70 to win the scoring le. You think Duncan would have done that? Hardly. You know why? Duncan has rings, he doesn't care(or NEED TO CARE) about the regular season. D-Rob had no 'next level' in the playoffs. Sorry, but that's where names are made... in the playoffs. If you ask who is a better quarterback all-time Marino or Montana, 90% of people would say Montana. Why? Because 1A in sports greatness is how many championships you've won.

Bottom line, 11-9. Duncan. I calculated the score by how many more rings Duncan has than Robinson. I could have increased it by 1, on the count of coat-tailing, but decided not to.

[SpurSupremacist]

Just to prevent you from getting raped by whottt, he meant to COACH OR MANAGE. not if he was coach or gm, and was looking for players.

I realize that. Have you not heard Horry speak? His IQ is probably somewhere in the range of 70 or 75.

[kingmalaki]

I think Robinson wins in a game of 1-1. He is just too quick for Duncan. Not to mention Robinson was a better defender, so I can see him stopping Tim more than Tim could stop him.

Now if we are talking about who I would rather have leading my team, then it's clearly Duncan. Robinson was a stat-filler, but he kinda reminds me of KG in that his back-to-the basket game wasn't elite, and that really showed in the postseason where he wasn't the same effective scorer. Duncan has a history of stepping up when it matters most (individually...since everyone keeps noting the teammate difference). Robinson doesn't. Robinson had a lot of bad postseason games, and I can only recall one series where he went ape-sh&% on the opposition...against the Suns in 96:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_1996.html

Duncan and Hakeem went bonkers on the opposition quite often.....

[ambchang]

It's Duncan, hands down.

Blah blah blah, Robinson didn't have the teammates. Neither did Allen Iverson. He gets traded to the Nuggets, they're sure to win now! Right? Yeah. Cry me a river, man. He didn't have what it takes. Tim does.

In 2003, he took a bunch of rookies to a championship, against one of the biggest powerhouses in NBA history... and he dominated them. Robinson? He got absolutely obliterated by Hakeem and was shown who the real MVP was.

And don't give the bull excuse that Robinson didn't care, and he was such a great guy. If he was, he would never have tried to score 70 to win the scoring le. You think Duncan would have done that? Hardly. You know why? Duncan has rings, he doesn't care(or NEED TO CARE) about the regular season. D-Rob had no 'next level' in the playoffs. Sorry, but that's where names are made... in the playoffs. If you ask who is a better quarterback all-time Marino or Montana, 90% of people would say Montana. Why? Because 1A in sports greatness is how many championships you've won.

Bottom line, 11-9. Duncan. I calculated the score by how many more rings Duncan has than Robinson. I could have increased it by 1, on the count of coat-tailing, but decided not to.

Proof that some Spurs fans are idiots too.