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  1. #1
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I've been most of the night working on various things and I've taken some time to do a bit of thinking. I don't think I'm as upset as the bailout failing now, and I may be on the verge of simply thinking we should not pass any bailout at all.

    I'm not coming to the line of thinking that passing the bailout will make things worse, and I'm not of the opinion that failure to pass the bill will work lessen any type of blow. I generally think we're on the verge of something pretty horrible, and I'm not sure how deep the hole will be but I'm hoping for the best and expecting the worst.

    Now, that being said, I've long believed there would need to be something that hurt us all deeply as a motivator for change in this country. The fact is that when things are relatively good, and they've been good for quite some time, there is never the fuel needed for a revolution. When you look at our national debt numbers and when you look at the excess of our society you know that we cannot continue this way forever. My hope in supporting the bailout was that we could find a way to fix the system without a total collapse.

    More than likely that's simply not the case. Revolutions do not occur without pain.

    When I was a bit younger - even just 2,3 or four years ago - I think it was easier for me to be an ideologue. I was far more of a libertarian at that point and I felt that the free market always worked itself out. I'm a bit more cynical now, and I simply don't believe that companies can work in a environment with no regulation because the average consumer simply does not care enough for anything beyond the bottom line. It was easy for me to want a catalyst at that time in my life since I really had nothing to lose.

    Fast forward a few years down the line and that's not the case. The idea of an economic depression is quite frightening to me. Not because I have much wealth to lose but because I have a greater perspective on things now and its much more than a ideology.

    That being said, something has to change. This country HAS to hurt deeply to realize where its going wrong. There's no other way to explain to the American people and have them actually understand why they can't extend themselves so much based on so little. That Congress let us down in the manner they did during this crisis simply drives home how much accountability we need to learn from the bottom to the top.

    I think I know how much this is going to harm this country. I also think maybe its what this country needs.

  2. #2
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Nice take.

    I've researched the bailout and its ramifications and I've come to the conclusion that its basically just a crap shoot. No one knows what the outcome will be with or without a bailout.

    My conclusion as of right this second is that a properly drawn up bailout could help delay the inevitable bubble burst. It could even help to help block some of the damage done once the burst of the bubble occurs. If it takes some more monopoly money to accomplish those things, I think putting $700B onto the gigantic tab would be worth it.

    Selfishly, I wouldn't care too much if the bubble did burst overnight. I've been planning for this ish for the last half decade and would be ready to start gobbling if it hits the fan. I've stayed as far away from the fake housing boom as possible and haven't used any form of personal or business credit in I don't know how many years. If the house of cards comes crumbling down, it'd obviously be sad for the country but I couldn't feel too sorry for those who couldn't see this coming . . .

  3. #3
    Believe. KenMcCoy's Avatar
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    Good take Manny...I think the worst thing we can do right now is give Paulson a 700B check.

    I posted in another thread about changing the mark to market accounting rules. I've done more research on it and I think that's the best way to go at this moment. Paulson and Bernake have both admitted that no one really knows how much this stuff is worth, and it's because of the mark to market accounting. Mark to market overvalues assets in good times and undervalues assets in bad. Europe had warned us that mark to market didn't work after we switched the accounting rules in the wake of Enron.

    Changing the rules would instantly free up the banks to start loaning again because they wouldn't be sitting on all of this "toxic" debt.

  4. #4
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    Nice take +1

    Hopefully the mark to market rule will be suspended today which (from what I've read) should, at a minimum, buy some time for a better plan to be developed.

    Edit- oops, Ken beat me to it.

  5. #5
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    Am I the only one who sees many common themes between 1929 and 2008?

    People who think the US will come out of this crisis without the help of the Government, (call it a bailout, call it a stimulus plan, call it wahtever you like), simply put, are living in another planet.

    It will take another New Deal to come out of this crisis . . .

  6. #6
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    By the way, the bailout will be passed. Some people do not understand how high the stakes are . . .

  7. #7
    Believe. KenMcCoy's Avatar
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    It will take another New Deal to come out of this crisis . . .
    The New Deal actually lengthened depression...most economists today agree that raising taxes was the worst thing that Hoover/FDR could have done. THe New Deal took a recession and turned it into a depression.

  8. #8
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    They probably need to do SOMETHING, I just don't think they should rush some bill through, with an arbitrarily high number, with no provisions about golden parachutes, etc.


    They need to spend more time THINKING about this one.

  9. #9
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    The New Deal actually lengthened depression...most economists today agree that raising taxes was the worst thing that Hoover/FDR could have done. THe New Deal took a recession and turned it into a depression.
    Who taught you Economics? Boutons?

  10. #10
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    They probably need to do SOMETHING, I just don't think they should rush some bill through, with an arbitrarily high number, with no provisions about golden parachutes, etc.


    They need to spend more time THINKING about this one.
    I don't disagree. But something needs to be done. The market will eventually fix itself, but it will be a very, very painful process. People who happily cheer the bailout not passing don't realize it.

  11. #11
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    Good thinking, but not original, as many others in the "expert" class of economists, economics professors, etc. have said the bailout was a bad idea with no cer ude really helping the USA, other than gifting $700B+ to undeserving recipients.

    Paulsen's 3-pager, a number already a hint of how bad it was, said:

    The solution is "give me $700B, give it to me with no strings attached and no oversight, and do it within 7 days, else, I/my financial buddies will murder the the USA and commit suicide". aka, ING EXTORTION.

    This approach is the same BULL LIES used by the Exec to justify the Iraq-invasion-for-oil (mushroom clouds, etc). And we know how wonderfully that turned out.

    This Repug Exec has had no credibility for years, and now they want $700B for their buddies in the financial community? Only a few weeks before dubya is finally and fatally lamed out of office? G M A F B

    The mortgage bubble, the US federal deficit, household debt at record levels and several percent above household income, all add up to a greedy ing materialisic culture living way beyond its means, deep in debt.

  12. #12
    Believe. KenMcCoy's Avatar
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    Smeagol, who taught you economics?? your HIGH SCHOOL history teacher??

    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3357

    Until 1937, New Deal revenue from excise taxes exceeded the combined revenue from both personal income taxes and corporate income taxes. It wasn't until 1942, in the midst of World War II, that income taxes exceeded excise taxes for the first time under FDR. Consumers had less money to spend, and employers had less money for growth and jobs.
    New Deal taxes were major job destroyers during the 1930s, prolonging unemployment that averaged 17%. Higher business taxes meant that employers had less money for growth and jobs. Social Security excise taxes on payrolls made it more expensive for employers to hire people, which discouraged hiring.
    Other New Deal programs destroyed jobs, too. For example, the National Industrial Recovery Act (1933) cut back production and forced wages above market levels, making it more expensive for employers to hire people - blacks alone were estimated to have lost some 500,000 jobs because of the National Industrial Recovery Act. The Agricultural Adjustment Act (1933) cut back farm production and devastated black tenant farmers who needed work. The National Labor Relations Act (1935) gave unions monopoly bargaining power in workplaces and led to violent strikes and compulsory unionization of mass production industries. Unions secured above-market wages, triggering big layoffs and helping to usher in the depression of 1938.
    What about the good supposedly done by New Deal spending programs? These didn't increase the number of jobs in the economy, because the money spent on New Deal projects came from taxpayers who consequently had less money to spend on food, coats, cars, books and other things that would have stimulated the economy. This is a classic case of the seen versus the unseen -- we can see the jobs created by New Deal spending, but we cannot see jobs destroyed by New Deal taxing.
    For defenders of the New Deal, perhaps the most embarrassing revelation about New Deal spending programs is they channeled money AWAY from the South, the poorest region in the United States. The largest share of New Deal spending and loan programs went to political "swing" states in the West and East - where incomes were at least 60% higher than in the South. As an in bent, FDR didn't see any point giving much money to the South where voters were already overwhelmingly on his side.
    Americans needed bargains, but FDR hammered consumers -- and millions had little money. His National Industrial Recovery Act forced consumers to pay above-market prices for goods and services, and the Agricultural Adjustment Act forced Americans to pay more for food. Moreover, FDR banned discounting by signing the Anti-Chain Store Act (1936) and the Retail Price Maintenance Act (1937).
    Poor people suffered from other high-minded New Deal policies like the Tennessee Valley Authority monopoly. Its dams flooded an estimated 750,000 acres, an area about the size of Rhode Island, and TVA agents dispossessed thousands of people. Poor black sharecroppers, who didn't own property, got no compensation.
    FDR might not have intended to harm millions of poor people, but that's what happened. We should evaluate government policies according to their actual consequences, not their good intentions.

  13. #13
    Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Viva Las Espuelas's Avatar
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    The New Deal actually lengthened depression...most economists today agree that raising taxes was the worst thing that Hoover/FDR could have done. THe New Deal took a recession and turned it into a depression.
    ding ding ding
    thank you. that's why we were one of the last, if not, the last country to come out of the great depression. FDR, a great president? puh-lease. why do you think democrats pushed for term limits DURING his tenure. when Obamessiah called FDR a great president it sent chills down my spine. go out and but the book called The Forgotten Man by Amity Shlaes.

  14. #14
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    Arthur LAFFER! St. Ronnie's Economic advisor "nails" the US economic situation 2 years ago vs. Ron Paul adivsor, guess who got it right?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU6PamCQ6zw






  15. #15
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    Am I the only one who sees many common themes between 1929 and 2008?

    People who think the US will come out of this crisis without the help of the Government, (call it a bailout, call it a stimulus plan, call it wahtever you like), simply put, are living in another planet.

    It will take another New Deal to come out of this crisis . . .


    Two things going on in 1929 that contributed that aren't in play yet...


    #1. Prohibition. That was an economy killer.

    #2. The US withdrew it's troops from all around the globe(read South America) as it was going into a non-interventionist mode and cut it's military. This had the effect of putting a lot people back into the work force without jobs to give to them. This was a primary cause of the huge upsurge in unemployment. This is what lead to the semi-welfare state.

    The New Deal didn't fix ...WWII is what fixed our economy...when we rebuilt our military.





    #1. Isn't a problem now.

    But #2 damn sure could be.



    Legalize weed and keep the military where it's at and we shouldn't have another depression.


    Plus the world moves faster now...in a world wide depression the US will remain the A #1 market to invest in as they have the most sound financial infrastructure in the world.

  16. #16
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    Arthur LAFFER! St. Ronnie's Economic advisor "nails" the US economic situation 2 years ago vs. Ron Paul adivsor, guess who got it right?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU6PamCQ6zw
    The only important question about that...Did he get his penny yet?

  17. #17
    Everyone Gots One Opinionater's Avatar
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    IMHO, this only means that the eventual bailout plan will be better.

  18. #18
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    This smart guy from Harvard agrees with you:


    Commentary: Bankruptcy, not bailout, is the right answer



    CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts (CNN) -- Congress has balked at the Bush administration's proposed $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. Under this plan, the Treasury would have bought the "troubled assets" of financial ins utions in an attempt to avoid economic meltdown.
    This bailout was a terrible idea. Here's why.
    The current mess would never have occurred in the absence of ill-conceived federal policies. The federal government chartered Fannie Mae in 1938 and Freddie Mac in 1970; these two mortgage lending ins utions are at the center of the crisis. The government implicitly promised these ins utions that it would make good on their debts, so Fannie and Freddie took on huge amounts of excessive risk.
    Worse, beginning in 1977 and even more in the 1990s and the early part of this century, Congress pushed mortgage lenders and Fannie/Freddie to expand subprime lending. The industry was happy to oblige, given the implicit promise of federal backing, and subprime lending soared.
    This subprime lending was more than a minor relaxation of existing credit guidelines. This lending was a wholesale abandonment of reasonable lending practices in which borrowers with poor credit characteristics got mortgages they were ill-equipped to handle.
    Once housing prices declined and economic conditions worsened, defaults and delinquencies soared, leaving the industry holding large amounts of severely depreciated mortgage assets.
    The fact that government bears such a huge responsibility for the current mess means any response should eliminate the conditions that created this situation in the first place, not attempt to fix bad government with more government.
    The obvious alternative to a bailout is letting troubled financial ins utions declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy means that shareholders typically get wiped out and the creditors own the company.
    Bankruptcy does not mean the company disappears; it is just owned by someone new (as has occurred with several airlines). Bankruptcy punishes those who took excessive risks while preserving those aspects of a businesses that remain profitable.

    In contrast, a bailout transfers enormous wealth from taxpayers to those who knowingly engaged in risky subprime lending. Thus, the bailout encourages companies to take large, imprudent risks and count on getting bailed out by government. This "moral hazard" generates enormous distortions in an economy's allocation of its financial resources.
    Thoughtful advocates of the bailout might concede this perspective, but they argue that a bailout is necessary to prevent economic collapse. According to this view, lenders are not making loans, even for worthy projects, because they cannot get capital. This view has a grain of truth; if the bailout does not occur, more bankruptcies are possible and credit conditions may worsen for a time.
    Talk of Armageddon, however, is ridiculous scare-mongering. If financial ins utions cannot make productive loans, a profit opportunity exists for someone else. This might not happen instantly, but it will happen.
    Further, the current credit freeze is likely due to Wall Street's hope of a bailout; bankers will not sell their lousy assets for 20 cents on the dollar if the government might pay 30, 50, or 80 cents.
    The costs of the bailout, moreover, are almost certainly being understated. The administration's claim is that many mortgage assets are merely illiquid, not truly worthless, implying taxpayers will recoup much of their $700 billion.
    If these assets are worth something, however, private parties should want to buy them, and they would do so if the owners would accept fair market value. Far more likely is that current owners have brushed under the rug how little their assets are worth.
    The bailout has more problems. The final legislation will probably include numerous side conditions and special dealings that reward Washington lobbyists and their clients.
    Anticipation of the bailout will engender strategic behavior by Wall Street ins utions as they shuffle their assets and position their balance sheets to maximize their take. The bailout will open the door to further federal meddling in financial markets.
    So what should the government do? Eliminate those policies that generated the current mess. This means, at a general level, abandoning the goal of home ownership independent of ability to pay. This means, in particular, getting rid of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with policies like the Community Reinvestment Act that pressure banks into subprime lending.
    The right view of the financial mess is that an enormous fraction of subprime lending should never have occurred in the first place. Someone has to pay for that. That someone should not be, and does not need to be, the U.S. taxpayer.

  19. #19
    Basketball Expertise spurster's Avatar
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    Well, the smart guy from Harvard is a lecturer there, not a professor, so I wouldn't say he was that smart.

    But I like the idea of incorporating bankruptcy into the bailout. Financial companies who have lost the house on mortgage derivatives should go bankrupt or go on a fire sale. The government can step in to help then as it did for Wachovia. The government should not prop up bad companies.

  20. #20
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Smeagol, who taught you economics?? your HIGH SCHOOL history teacher??

    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3357
    Because, as we all know, we can count on the cato ins ute to give a fair, non-biased account of the root causes of the Great Depression.


  21. #21
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    My understanding is that if nothing is done, within two weeks all short-term and revolving credit will shut down. So for you individually, at first it means your credit and debit cards will stop working, and you won't be able to write checks. You'll have to pay cash for everything. That is, if you can get your money out. Within a few weeks, Bank of America, Citi, and Chase will declare bankruptcy.

    Oh, and even if you have cash, it will be hard finding a place to use it. Most businesses float their operating expenses for 30 to 60 days on credit because that's how long it takes to process the invoices. When that stops, their whole business model stops. So basically all economic activity will stop, at least for a while. Your company won't be able to make payroll, so don't expect to get paid for a while. Don't expect to go to H-E-B for food, because they'll be closed. Hopefully you know a farmer and can pay cash, or you have a bunker somewhere where you've stored canned goods.

    You'll also need firearms, because there will be hungry and desperate people ready to use violence to get some food or some money.

    Be sure to avoid heavily populated areas in the cities where the food riots will be happening. Really, it would be better to flee the cities. Stock up on gas now, because once credit shuts down, the gas stations will be closed too.

    Conditions will be kind of like Iraq circa 2005 for a while, but really, it's worth it to let the market work itself out. Nations have to be allowed to fail just like businesses.

  22. #22
    Believe. KenMcCoy's Avatar
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    Because, as we all know, we can count on the cato ins ute to give a fair, non-biased account of the root causes of the Great Depression.

    How about these...

    http://www.econlib.org/LIBRARY/Enc/GreatDepression.html

    http://www.opinionjournal.com/column.../?id=110004190

    http://www.slate.com/id/2169744

    http://minneapolisfed.org/research/qr/qr2311.pdf

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=515245

    There's a lot more...

    Look, the point is that what you learned about the New Deal in HS history was from a book written by HISTORY teachers and not economists. Accepting what is in the HS texts at face value is like asking the ice cream man if your car needs a new transmission...he might know a little background but you'd be better off going to a mechanic.

  23. #23
    2nd Verse Same as the 1st Oh, Gee!!'s Avatar
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    My understanding is that if nothing is done, within two weeks all short-term and revolving credit will shut down. So for you individually, at first it means your credit and debit cards will stop working, and you won't be able to write checks. You'll have to pay cash for everything. That is, if you can get your money out. Within a few weeks, Bank of America, Citi, and Chase will declare bankruptcy.

    Oh, and even if you have cash, it will be hard finding a place to use it. Most businesses float their operating expenses for 30 to 60 days on credit because that's how long it takes to process the invoices. When that stops, their whole business model stops. So basically all economic activity will stop, at least for a while. Your company won't be able to make payroll, so don't expect to get paid for a while. Don't expect to go to H-E-B for food, because they'll be closed. Hopefully you know a farmer and can pay cash, or you have a bunker somewhere where you've stored canned goods.

    You'll also need firearms, because there will be hungry and desperate people ready to use violence to get some food or some money.

    Be sure to avoid heavily populated areas in the cities where the food riots will be happening. Really, it would be better to flee the cities. Stock up on gas now, because once credit shuts down, the gas stations will be closed too.

    Conditions will be kind of like Iraq circa 2005 for a while, but really, it's worth it to let the market work itself out. Nations have to be allowed to fail just like businesses.
    sounds like dubya's primetime speech.

  24. #24
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    Well, the smart guy from Harvard is a lecturer there, not a professor, so I wouldn't say he was that smart.



    Oh holy that was ignorant on so many levels. "Lecturer and NOT Professor". Do you always know this little about what the you are talking about?

    Here is 2/3rds of the FIRST page of dude's TWELVE page CV:

    CURRICULUM VITAE OF JEFFREY A. MIRON



    January, 2008





    Senior Lecturer and Director of Undergraduate Studies
    Department of Economics
    Harvard University
    Cambridge, MA 02138
    (617) 495-4129 (office)
    (781) 856-0086 (cell)
    (617) 495-8570 (fax)
    [email protected]
    http://post.economics.harvard.edu/fa...ron/miron.html


    Education

    Swarthmore College, B.A. in Economics, Magna Laude, 1979.

    M.I.T., Ph.D. in Economics, 1984.


    Honors, Fellowships, and Awards

    Phi Beta Kappa, 1979

    Joshua P. Lippincott Fellowship for Graduate Study, 1979.

    Social Science Research Council Fellowship, 1981.

    Rackham Faculty Fellowship, University of Michigan, 1987

    Olin Fellowship, National Bureau of Economic Research, 1988 – 1989.

    Sloan Foundation Faculty Research Fellowship, 1990 – 1992.

    Senior Class List of Favorite Teachers, Harvard College, 2006

    Senior Class List of Favorite Teachers, Harvard College, 2007

    Senior Class List of Favorite Teachers, Harvard College, 2008
    Yeah, not that smart.


  25. #25
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    My understanding is that if nothing is done, within two weeks all short-term and revolving credit will shut down. So for you individually, at first it means your credit and debit cards will stop working, and you won't be able to write checks. You'll have to pay cash for everything. That is, if you can get your money out. Within a few weeks, Bank of America, Citi, and Chase will declare bankruptcy.

    Oh, and even if you have cash, it will be hard finding a place to use it. Most businesses float their operating expenses for 30 to 60 days on credit because that's how long it takes to process the invoices. When that stops, their whole business model stops. So basically all economic activity will stop, at least for a while. Your company won't be able to make payroll, so don't expect to get paid for a while. Don't expect to go to H-E-B for food, because they'll be closed. Hopefully you know a farmer and can pay cash, or you have a bunker somewhere where you've stored canned goods.

    You'll also need firearms, because there will be hungry and desperate people ready to use violence to get some food or some money.

    Be sure to avoid heavily populated areas in the cities where the food riots will be happening. Really, it would be better to flee the cities. Stock up on gas now, because once credit shuts down, the gas stations will be closed too.

    Conditions will be kind of like Iraq circa 2005 for a while, but really, it's worth it to let the market work itself out. Nations have to be allowed to fail just like businesses.

    link?

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