The Manu Doesn't Believe in God Thread

[Xylus]

So are you saying you could believe in the existence of a purple elephant with wings that flies through the sky and farts out wind if you wanted to do so?

Absolutely.

But I consciously choose to believe that no such thing exists.

[whottt]

Could you also believe that something like say..an automoble doesn't exist?

[Xylus]

Could you also believe that something like say..an automoble doesn't exist?

I have ample evidence to prove that automobiles definitely exist.

[Shastafarian]

I can't wait to see where this is going.

[Extra Stout]

I also think it's very dishonest to try to imply that because Einstein might not have put the same rigor in his scientific research than on his religious beliefs he can be construed as being intellectually lazy, which is basically what you're implying. The reality is that the man did not believe in God, much to your despair, and had much better things to do as a scientist than sit down and try to analyze why that was.

Somehow you have managed to construe the exact opposite of what I said. I am confident that I wrote in clear and unambiguous English. I suspect that while Einstein was probably not intellectually lazy, you are.

[ElNono]

I kind of get what you are saying, but it seems like you are talking about things like fornication, drinking... being forbidden. I was referring to the principles outlined in the bible (love, respect...). You are saying people that do not engage in the "sins" are not living life to the fullest, I do not believe that is true. I believe that for society, if people just at least acted in accordance with the bibles principles, even if they do not believe in God, would make the world and life more enjoyable. There is noting forbidden really, especially because you are free to learn and do things. You can always ask for forgiveness. It is like the teenager who wants to have sex with every girl, but as you get older you realize that sex without love is fruitless. They still got to experience things, but realize that happiness changes as you grow up.

I'll give you one concrete example that has nothing to do with fornication or drinking... Take a person who is not fertile enough to conceive a child by his own means, but could go the route of IVF in order to have one or more children and enjoy having a family. But the church does not allow that, and a religious person would rather save his little parcel in heaven than to experience the joy of having a family. How about a raped woman, who does not want to conceive the child of her abuser? That's another example. How about those who got married, and then realized they made a mistake?
There are many, many topics that religious people struggle with. Some of them end up losing their beliefs over it...

[whottt]

I have ample evidence to prove that automobiles definitely exist.

So that's a no I'm guessing.


So ultimately you can't disbelieve in something you know exists...and you struggle to believe something you don't know exists? To believe in something you don't know exists would be irrational to you?

[Extra Stout]

Well, basically, there are certain things you are forbidden to experience in life in order to ensure you're going to have that imaginary parcel of heaven when you die. People that do not believe in life after death have no problem living life at it's fullest, without preset religious limitations.

It's curious how much of Western agnostic "philosophy" holds to a fair majority of Christian morality... with the exception of sexual conduct. It's as though all this high-minded "rationalist" thinking were just a cover for wanting to screw around like a rodent, but knowing that goes against one's upbringing. Well, we'll just throw up that upbringing. It's not "rational" after all.

[Xylus]

So that's a no I'm guessing.


So ultimately you can't disbelieve in something you know exists...and you struggle to believe something you don't know exists? To believe in something you don't know exists would be irrational to you?

I don't struggle to believe in something that could or could not exist: I simply choose not to. But yeah, believing in something for which there is no evidence to prove its existence, that would be irrational to me.

[ElNono]

I can't wait to see where this is going.

I know exactly where this is going.. thus my refuting his argument with the 'killing'... basically, I'm venturing he's going to present the theory that because he chooses not to believe, he's missing out on the stuff. That because he's not exercising a spiritual beliefs, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, he's just choosing to ignore that it's there.
Which is obviously a complete fallacy. The fact that we can spend all of our days dreaming and thinking of imaginary things don't automatically make them 'real'.

Anyways, I have better things that comment on whottt's idiocy. I think Xylus has this under control...

[Shastafarian]

I know exactly where this is going.. thus my refuting his argument with the 'killing'... basically, I'm venturing he's going to present the theory that because he chooses not to believe, he's missing out on the stuff. That because he's not exercising a spiritual beliefs, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, he's just choosing to ignore that it's there.
Which is obviously a complete fallacy. The fact that we can spend all of our days dreaming and thinking of imaginary things don't automatically make them 'real'.

See I thought he was gonna go with the intelligence argument. He asked if it would be irrational to believe in something that we don't have proof of. Only intelligent beings could have the concept of rationality. Of course that proves absolutely nothing regarding intelligence leading to faith.

[whottt]

I don't struggle to believe in something that could or could not exist: I simply choose not to. But yeah, believing in something for which there is no evidence to prove its existence, that would be irrational to me.

So if you were to tell a story, or write one, about an automible for an individual that had no prior concept of an automobile...

What would be the more intelligent response...

If he believes what you are telling him and that they exist...

Or if he doesn't because he hasn't seen one with his own eyes?

[ElNono]

Somehow you have managed to construe the exact opposite of what I said. I am confident that I wrote in clear and unambiguous English. I suspect that while Einstein was probably not intellectually lazy, you are.

I said I disagreed with what you said, and stated my point of view. I'm fairly sure I also wrote in plan, unambiguous English. I actually don't think you're intellectually lazy, just dishonest at times...

[Xylus]

So if you were to tell a story, or write one, about an automible for an individual that had no prior concept of an automobile...

What would be the more intelligent response...

If he believes what you are telling him and that they exist...

Or if he doesn't because he hasn't seen one with his own eyes?

I think it would be silly for him to believe that it exists based on my story alone, so I guess the more intelligent response would be skepticism.

But either way, faith and skepticism (or a desire for a rational evidence) are two traits that only human beings possess.

[ElNono]

So if you were to tell a story, or write one, about an automible for an individual that had no prior concept of an automobile...

What would be the more intelligent response...

If he believes what you are telling him and that they exist...

Or if he doesn't because he hasn't seen one with his own eyes?

He would bring a ing picture and a matchbox car... ing idiot...
how stupid is this this guy?

[DPG21920]

I'll give you one concrete example that has nothing to do with fornication or drinking... Take a person who is not fertile enough to conceive a child by his own means, but could go the route of IVF in order to have one or more children and enjoy having a family. But the church does not allow that, and a religious person would rather save his little parcel in heaven than to experience the joy of having a family. How about a raped woman, who does not want to conceive the child of her abuser? That's another example. How about those who got married, and then realized they made a mistake?
There are many, many topics that religious people struggle with. Some of them end up losing their beliefs over it...

Well everything in the world involves sacrifice. Give and take. There are other options. Say for example the couple adopts? Also, like I said, even if the woman gets an abortion, she is not damned. She can ask for forgiveness (if she feels she has to). This does not prove that not believing involves more "perceived risk" than believing.

[Shastafarian]

He would bring a ing picture and a matchbox car... ing idiot...
how stupid is this this guy?

[Xylus]

I'm not sure where this is going, but I'm going to go eat dinner now... so some other Atheist can continue where I left off.

[Shastafarian]

I'm not sure where this is going, but I'm going to go eat dinner now... so some other Atheist can continue where I left off.

I would but he makes it abundantly clear he has me on ignore.

[ElNono]

Well everything in the world involves sacrifice. Give and take. There are other options. Say for example the couple adopts? Also, like I said, even if the woman gets an abortion, she is not damned. She can ask for forgiveness (if she feels she has to). This does not prove that not believing involves more "perceived risk" than believing.

Adoption can take years, and sometimes it just simply does not happen. I actually know a couple that cannot conceive, even through IVF, that have applied for child adoption, but they know their chances are very slim.

For a non-believer, there's no 'perceived risk', because we're not thinking of what we're going to miss when we kick the bucket.

But as an ex-Christian, I know you HAVE to repent in order to ask for forgiveness. Faking it doesn't work. But what happens if you don't regret such action? Should you struggle the rest of your life? Should you abandon your faith?

[ElNono]

I'm not sure where this is going, but I'm going to go eat dinner now... so some other Atheist can continue where I left off.

I'm on ignore too... sucker doesn't have the balls...

[Shastafarian]

I'm on ignore too... sucker doesn't have the balls...

Yet he flaunts it like it's a good thing. I've never seen someone be proud of placing people on ignore.

[DPG21920]

Adoption can take years, and sometimes it just simply does not happen. I actually know a couple that cannot conceive, even through IVF, that have applied for child adoption, but they know their chances are very slim.

For a non-believer, there's no 'perceived risk', because we're not thinking of what we're going to miss when we kick the bucket.

But as an ex-Christian, I know you HAVE to repent in order to ask for forgiveness. Faking it doesn't work. But what happens if you don't regret such action? Should you struggle the rest of your life? Should you abandon your faith?

No not at all. That is the difference between believing and not believing. Either you really believe or you do not. If you do, you are not damned, you can ask for forgiveness. If you do not, there is nothing to forgive. I was purely saying at the most basic level, if you look at believers vs non-believers believers have no risk (if they are wrong). I do not feel that if you are a believer and you could theoretically die and consciously see there is no God, that you would have said "damn, I should of done this, this and this". Also, whether you believe or not, the principles (for the most part) are universally good to follow and would increase the happiness on earth between people whether you are a believer or not.

[whottt]

I think it would be silly for him to believe that it exists based on my story alone, so I guess the more intelligent response would be skepticism.

But nontheless...the less primitive the guy, the greater his mental capacity, the greater the chance he'd believe you. The more things he was aware of...the greater the chance he'd believe you.

I mean you tell that story to a rock or a vegetable you will get no response, you tell it to an infant, a horse, a feral child, they will not understand you, you tell it to a primitive man, he may or may not understand you but there's a chance he would, you tell that story to man with the most basic knowledge of propulsion, like say someone who had seen bottle rockets. there'd be a greater chance he'd believe you...you tell it to a man who has lived in a village or town with say electricity, again he might not believe you but chances are he'd believe you...

But either way, faith and skepticism (or a desire for a rational evidence) are two traits that only human beings possess.

Well being a skeptic isn't being an atheist...it's being agnostic. By your own definition...being an atheist is chosing not to believe. You say it's a choice...but again by your own words, you have no choice but to believe in something you know exists. That doesn't sound like a choice to me.

So basically you can't believe in something you don't know exists, even though every branch of humanity, every civilization, from every corner of the globe independly concluded that things of such nature do indeed exist, that great civilizations have been built upon those beliefs?


Simply put...you don't know it exists, so you can't believe it exists....how is that different from a horse again?

[possessed]

Manu is the man.