The Manu Doesn't Believe in God Thread

[xtremesteven33]

What? Accidents happen every day, and you can almost always find a reason of why they happened. When you can't, you have two paths to follow: Either you scientifically attempt to figure out why (by proposing a theory for scrutiny based on sound science) or, if you're a person that believes in the supernatural, you assign it to it.
The second problem with your post is that you assume that the Big Bang happened. It's called a theory for a reason. Even pretending here for a second that it did happen, we still don't know how it happened.
But then again, how any of this has anything to do with Evolution?

Accidents happen everyday. Ur right. But no one PLANS an accident bro. Thats my point!

My original arguement was that Atheists seem to believe in "purpose" even though they also believe in accidental existence. It is illogical to say the least. You cant have it both ways sad to say. Its either "created with a purpose" or "Accidental Natural selection"

One cannot say an accident happend for a reason with a atheistic point of view. If an accident happend for a reason or was orchestrated in any way, then you either look at it by divine intervention or it was planned and therefore had purpose.

[Phenomanul]

Interesting scientific study you have there. Let me know what the results are when they're analyzed.

Hence the descriptor... "Theoretical...."

I guess a much better adjective choice would have been to use the word "hypothetical...." oh well. My point stands; when faced with death, most people, including athiests, will suc b to the innermost desire of their spirit to continue living. In most cases they will plea. So if no one is there... they will eventually plea to the one en y they've denied existence to. GOD will listen when He senses true belief. How He chooses to respond at that point however is entirely up to Him.

Anyhow, the prevailing notion in this thread that "belief in GOD makes one intellectually inferior" is quite laughable... Go ahead and conduct a such a study. "Let me know what the results are when they are analyzed."

I will tell you this.... there is no correlation. One could be completely athiestic and be highly intelligent. Or be completely spiritual and highly intelligent. They are not mutually exclusive attributes. IMO however, I would consider the latter person wiser for having recognized and connected the Creator with His creation.

[ElNono]

Under the athestic belief, reality does not exsist. Before you call me crazy, please read carefully.

Under such beliefs, if you were to die, nothing would happen, you would essentially cease to exsist. Therefore, everything you've percieved to have occured is non-exsistant, with regard to your conscience.

Boy, are we confused...
When you die, you die. Including your conscience. You don't get to perceive anything after you're dead. Reality keeps on going. You get buried/cremated and the life of others goes on. If you happened to leave anything that transcends your life, such as photographs, a book, etc, some people might remember you. But you're toast, done, finito.

Well, you might say what about the conscience and perception of others.
As time passes, an astriod strikes the Earth, destroying all forms of life and anything which would provide evidence of previous life forms. (Hypothetical)

So, did reality exsist? Did anything ever exsist? More importantly, what defines that exsistance after such a point in time?

Of course reality exists. There are other planets, galaxies, might be other universes for all we know. They'll still have reality. Reality is nothing but a label to describe the marker in time for the current time. You would need to destroy time in order to destroy reality.

[Shastafarian]

Accidents happen everyday. Ur right. But no one PLANS an accident bro. Thats my point!

My original arguement was that Atheists seem to believe in "purpose" even though they also believe in accidental existence. It is illogical to say the least. You cant have it both ways sad to say. Its either "created with a purpose" or "Accidental Natural selection"

One cannot say an accident happend for a reason with a atheistic point of view. If an accident happend for a reason or was orchestrated in any way, then you either look at it by divine intervention or it was planned and therefore had purpose.

People who understand what atheism truly is probably don't believe in things happening for a reason. Can't say for sure as I don't know any steadfast atheists.

[remingtonbo2001]

But no one PLANS an accident bro.

What about the Mafia?

[angel_luv]

I will also humor the your fable. If a tree does fall in the forest and nothing is present to hear it, then no it doesn't make a sound.

A tree falling does make a sound, even if there is no one to bear witness to that specific instance.
People have witnessed other trees fall and have heard the sounds they make.
Therefore, we can apply that knowledge and know that whenever any tree falls, it does indeed make a sound.

[ElNono]

One of the great things to me about God is that one day, all will see Him and everything I have stood for in faith will be proved true.
When that day comes, AND IT WILL, no non-believer will have any argument to present, much less the nerve to speak.

I don't want you to come to the Truth to prove me right.
I want you to come to the Truth because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus and His Word WILL be PROVEN right.

So, what happens if an alien ships shows up first and provide evidence that they created us? I mean, it's just as sound as a theory as God.
What you would believe then? Would you *STILL* believe you're going to be facing God?

[clambake]

does anyone else walk through life thinking that there are demons bent on confusing mankind?

[baseline bum]

Who, or what is present to measure the waves created(sound)?

Something has to be present in order for sound to be measured. Something has to be present in order for sound to be defined.

I understand your point of view. Your holding all things constant.

We live in a world in which not everything is held constant, there are different variables.

No, something has to be present for the perception of sound to be measured. Your argument is basically boiling down to "If a tree falls in the forest and no one heard it, then no one perceived it", which really isn't saying anything. If your argument is that it makes no sound period, then your argument clearly states that inductive reasoning is false, and that we can only believe in something we explicitly see, hear, taste, etc. (not a good point to make if you're arguing for the presence of a god who does not reveal himself in any scientifically measurable way.)

What would you not hold constant in a tree falling in an uninhabited forest? That air is not there? That the tree doesn't accelerate to the ground at 9.8 meters per second squared? That it never stood in the first place?

[remingtonbo2001]

Of course reality exists. There are other planets, galaxies, might be other universes for all we know. They'll still have reality. Reality is nothing but a label to describe the marker in time for the current time. You would need to destroy time in order to destroy reality.

Precisely, time is a human conception of measurement.

Which goes back to my argument, if nothing exsists in order to measure time, how does time itself exsist?

And I also purposed the following hypothetical about the collaspe of the Universe, taking planets, galaxies, ect, out of the equation.

Okay, i'll take it one step further. If the Universe implodes upon itself, then
what? What happens when the Universe ceases to exsist?

[RandomGuy]

George Washington quotes:



A Portion of George Washington's personal prayers:

“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”

"Make me to know what is acceptable in Thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith, and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ..."
[from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752]

http://www.eadshome.com/GeorgeWashington.htm

One can be a "secularist" and still pray, go to church, read the Bible, and advocate others do so.

There is a big difference between faith, and the idea that government shouldn't advocate one religion over any other.

These men wanted that seperation, because of the different flavors of Christianity at the time were all were competing to be the "official" religion of the new nation. Some colonies actually had official religions, if memory serves.

The people writing the cons ution were of different sects of Christianity, and understood full well that allowing one or another of those sects to gain "official" status would lead to all sorts of persecution.

[jman3000]

A tree falling does make a sound, even if there is no one to bear witness to that specific instance.
People have witnessed other trees fall and have heard the sounds they make.
Therefore, we can apply that knowledge and know that whenever any tree falls, it does indeed make a sound.

@ the deceptively clever Jesus/God metaphor.

[angel_luv]

But how can you know that for sure? I mean 100% know it. Because you read it in the Bible?

How do you know for sure your mother is indeed your mother?
Likely...
1) Because your mom identified herself to you personally as your mom 2)because it says so on your birth certficate and 3)because people ( doctors, family members) witnessed your birth to your mother and told you about it.

I know Jesus is returning because 1) He speaks directly to my heart, 2)because it says so in the Bible ( my birth certificate, so to speak, and 3)because I have the testimony of others who also know Jesus. ( Accounts of people in the Bible ( disciples, Apostle Paul etc.), historical records of people who have already died (missionaries, pastors etc), and the daily testimonies of fellow Believers ( Christians here on the Forum and my friends from church).

[RandomGuy]

does anyone else walk through life thinking that there are demons bent on confusing mankind?

I am reasonably certain that you are one of those...


j/k

[remingtonbo2001]

What would you not hold constant in a tree falling in an uninhabited forest? That air is not there? That the tree doesn't accelerate to the ground at 9.8 meters per second squared? That it never stood in the first place?

My point is things must witnessed. Someone has to witness a tree falling at accelerated rate of 9.8 meters per second squared, to know precisely that.
Without someone, or yourself, witnessing such an event, you don't know the possibility of that event to occur, exsists.


Veronica, corrected me if wrong, but isn't that a fundamental part of Christianity, that certain events be witnessed?

[Phenomanul]

does anyone else walk through life thinking that there are demons bent on confusing mankind?

Despite your ignorant intolerance for parading my quote out of context (for more than a year no less), it applies to ElNono's hypothetical scenario.

I won't build a strawman argument and suggest that aliens don't exist; while linking that belief to the notion that if they do, that then GOD doesn't.

More than likely however that day will never come (aliens showing up at the White House to declare their existence to the world). Regardless, my belief in "sovereignties and principalities" not of this world (Angels and Demons) is unwaveringly linked to the belief in GOD Himself. You may laugh at me now, but frankly it has no bearing on what I will continue to believe in.

[Shastafarian]

I know Jesus is returning because 1) He speaks directly to my heart,

How?

2)because it says so in the Bible ( my birth certificate, so to speak,

If I believed everything I read in books I'd be reinforcing my house against vampires and giant squid. Sorry but a book written by men is as flawed as men

and 3)because I have the testimony of others who also know Jesus. ( Accounts of people in the Bible ( disciples, Apostle Paul etc.), historical records of people who have already died (missionaries, pastors etc), and the daily testimonies of fellow Believers ( Christians here on the Forum and my friends from church).

What does this mean really? What does it mean to "know" Jesus? I think it's safe to say you're not claiming you have met or talked to him. So what do you mean?

[RandomGuy]

How do you know for sure your mother is indeed your mother?
Likely...
1) Because your mom identified herself to you personally as your mom 2)because it says so on your birth certficate and 3)because people ( doctors, family members) witnessed your birth to your mother and told you about it.

I believe Jesus is returning because 1) He speaks directly to my heart, 2)because it says so in the Bible ( my birth certificate, so to speak, and 3)because I have the testimony of others who also know Jesus. ( Accounts of people in the Bible ( disciples, Apostle Paul etc.), historical records of people who have already died (missionaries, pastors etc), and the daily testimonies of fellow Believers ( Christians here on the Forum and my friends from church).

Fixed.

As a mortal, you cannot "know" the details of the divine plan. The Infinite is beyond the finite to truly comprehend.

You can read things that allow you to know the divine will as percieved by the writers.

I can buy this, if it is "Jesus will return someday". I think this is what you mean here.

BUT

I hear a lot of people who firmly believe Jesus will come back in their lifetime. That is not for us to know, only to guess at.

[Shastafarian]

Did Jesus change the day of the sabbath or are Jews just simply wrong?

[angel_luv]

does anyone else walk through life thinking that there are demons bent on confusing mankind?

There are. But they will get theirs.


Revelation 10:12-10-

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short."


Revelation 20:10-

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[ElNono]

Precisely, time is a human conception of measurement.

Which goes back to my argument, if nothing exsists in order to measure time, how does time itself exsist?

And I also purposed the following hypothetical about the collaspe of the Universe, taking planets, galaxies, ect, out of the equation.

LOL, you're looking really re ed already, but I'll help you get to the next level. If time is a human conception, then if every single human decide to try real hard for just a second and say: 'Ok, let's stop time', close their eyes, and shrug real hard, does time stop?

And to me, time is just another dimension defined by our Universe. Now if the Universe is destroyed, then I would say that the existence of that Universe concluded at whatever specific time was local to that Universe.

[Phenomanul]

One can be a "secularist" and still pray, go to church, read the Bible, and advocate others do so.

There is a big difference between faith, and the idea that government shouldn't advocate one religion over any other.

These men wanted that seperation, because of the different flavors of Christianity at the time were all were competing to be the "official" religion of the new nation. Some colonies actually had official religions, if memory serves.

The people writing the cons ution were of different sects of Christianity, and understood full well that allowing one or another of those sects to gain "official" status would lead to all sorts of persecution.

And yet the church faces all sorts of persecution from secularist agendas today... Ironic, no?

The Bible endorses separation of 'Church and State'.... with the implied premise that GOD's precepts continue to remain relevant to one's daily conduct.

[angel_luv]

So, what happens if an alien ships shows up first and provide evidence that they created us? I mean, it's just as sound as a theory as God.
What you would believe then? Would you *STILL* believe you're going to be facing God?

How is it plausible to you than aliens could appear to me but not at all conceivable to you that the God of the Universe will appear to you?

We will see who appears and who doesn't.

Spolier alert: Jesus is the only one returning.

[baseline bum]

My point is things must witnessed. Someone has to witness a tree falling at accelerated rate of 9.8 meters per second squared, to know precisely that.
Without someone, or yourself, witnessing such an event, you don't know the possibility of that event to occur, exsists.


Veronica, corrected me if wrong, but isn't that a fundamental part of Christianity, that certain events be witnessed?

Then there is no god as there is no way to measure its presence. I highly doubt that is a fundamental part of Christianity.

[Shastafarian]

How is it plausible to you than aliens could appear to me but not at all conceivable to you that the God of the Universe will appear to you?

We will see who appears and who doesn't.

Spolier alert: Jesus is the only one returning.

Well there are billions of other galaxies (within them are billions of stars) in the Universe so it seems likely intelligent life is out there. The bigger question is how to get past that whole can't accelerate to the speed of light nonsense. I'd believe that over an invisible, omniscient being who created us in his image story any day.