Agree with Jim Brown here
i agree with Jim Brown as well. One thing that I always respected about Shaq was that he would put some of that money in the community. He created businesses and jobs in areas that needed jobs badly. You never hear about Kobe doing anything of that nature and I think you should.
If people are so insecure about their political stance that they need athletes/celebrities to tell them where their political alliance should lie, swaying them would be manipulating the system through convincing a segment of the population who should not even be involved in politics in the first place.
On the other hand, I think Jim Brown is talking more about Jordan and Kobe selling out and not representing their culture.
BTW, Jordan did stand up for causes, who can forget the great American flag they used to cover up the Reebok logos during the medal ceremony?
Yeah, because black men owe it to everyone else when they succeed. Jim Brown is a bigot.
Traditionally, other ethnic and racial groups in this country have supported each other much better than African-Americans have done. For example, look at the relative success of Italians, Poles, and Koreans.
Jim Brown is coming at this from the same angle as Malcolm X and Bill Cosby. The reasoning is as follows:
By and large, the entertainment industry (including sports) has been the only financially lucrative arena in which African-Americans have had significant success. In other words, most well-known and wealthy African-Americans made their money in the entertainment field. This is problematic in several ways.
First, the vast majority of entertainment and sports figures have no significant control over the means of production. Eddie Murphy and Michael Jackson may be richer than God, but you'll notice neither of them owns any stake in the actual distribution of films or music. How many black owners are there in MLB, NBA, and NFL? In other words, the system will reward you to a point, but it denies African-Americans access to the "real money" and financial control of the various industries.
Second, this fame and wealth is fleeting. Will anyone know who Alicia Keyes was ten years from now? What's the average length of a sports career? Slightly below average players do well to hang on for four to five years. In other words, African-Americans are treated as a disposable commodity. They can, and will be replaced, because they have no control of the real capital in their respective fields.
Third, "entertainment" has no real lasting value to the African-American community (or any other for that matter). Perhaps sports and entertainment figures shouldn't be role models. How many African-Americans are on television who aren't athletes or entertainers? Most Americans know who Bill Gates and Mark Cuban are. I can't think of a single famous Black entrepreneur. In other words, a famous African-American scientist or inventor would have serious appeal as a role model for many parents. A famous educator, inventor, etc. has value to the African-American community apart from being "merely" famous (like an athlete, musician, or actor).
All this combines into a real problem. If the only famous, successful African-Americans are athletes or entertainers, then they do owe something to their community. Brown is basically saying that these athletes/entertainers need to do more, if only in the name of breaking this vicious cycle.
Feel free to disagree on the appropriateness of doing so, but it's pretty damn obvious that neither MJ or Kobe has ever done anything significant to improve the quality of life of the average African-American. Compared to Bill Cosby, Muhammad Ali, and Sidney Poitier, the current generation of black stars seem content to keep bojanglin' away for the almighty dollar.
Yeah, I heard Shaq did a lot in Watts. That's why he has his little section next to Nickerson Gardens.
One could argue that Jim Brown left the NFL for Hollywood at age 28 because of the money.
Bob Johnson
I have to agree with most of your post. I do not believe Jordan or Kobe has done anything for those who supported them in the black or lower income communities. Michael endorsed shoes that cost $300.00 dollars. Not too many in the poor communities can afford shoes at that cost. Kids were dying over those shoes. I felt like Michael should have done something like make them more affordable but he did nothing and kept on collecting checks.
No one is asking for a hand out but they can at least invest in a community. Give something back. There have been some black athletes that I have much more respect for. Magic, Shaq and Marbury instance for giving back to communities that supported them over the years.
He also did a lot in the Inglewood area where businesses were boarded up.
Yeah, they typically don't have aging stars getting in front of a microphone and dressing down current stars for their failure to prop up a community that doesn't support them.
Not by those comments, he isn't. Bill Cosby told the black community that they need to take responsibility for themselves, and he caught a lot of heat for it. Malcom X started to talk about the same thing and the Nation of Islam murdered him for it. As mentioned earlier, Jim Brown retired from the NFL so he could make movies.
I don't know about this, either. Perhaps I don't know what a production company does, but Eddie Murphy has had one that's been involved in his movies since Beverly Hills Cop. Michael Jackson not only owns stake in distribution of his own music, but he outbid the Beatles for some of their songs in the 80s when the publishing rights were being auctioned off and promptly let Nike use "Revolution" in a commercial, which caused a lot of controversy.
I don't see how those two sentences are related. Drawing unrelated conclusions from a single fact is ignorant. You might just as well suggest that any black people that have the money but are not owners are selfish, and you'd sound like Jim Brown.
Your "in other words" interpretations are priceless. My heart bleeds for the slightly below average pro athlete who makes more in 4 or 5 years than my wife and I will make in our lifetimes. Those poor disposable commodities should hire a financial planner instead of blaming someone else.
Perhaps people shouldn't be looking for entrepreneurs or scientists or inventors on television. Those people do exist, and they aren't propped up by the community. In many cases they've had to escape the community in order to achieve, because they are accused of "acting white" if they try to succeed in a field that's not customary.
The vicious cycle is that there's a community of people who think that they are owed something by those who achieve just because they look the same. As mentioned before, those that try to achieve in other areas are shunned or accused of trying to act like they're better than everyone else. That community is often headed by majordomo mouthpieces like Jim Brown and Jesse Jackson who pander to these beliefs in order to maintain their status. Jim Brown's attacks are just another attempt to drag someone down that's getting too far away from the community. The accusation that it's somehow traitorous to their race to live like other Americans do is the single most damaging thing to the development of blacks in this country, period. There'll be an "Uncle Tom" reference soon, I'm sure. There always is.
"bojanglin' away for the almighty dollar". Holy . I'm glad I didn't read down this far until just now. I couldn't have made up a better expression to describe the resentment of successful blacks by the rest of the community if I tried.
Maybe average African-Americans should spend more time taking responsibility for themselves and less time with their hand out. Maybe Jim Brown should be doing more than sitting in a sky box at Browns games. Perhaps the AA community should blame themselves instead of reaching out to basketball players who have their own things to do, and are no way obligated to distribute their wealth through the ghettos of the US in order to maintain their membership in the brotherhood. You certainly never hear someone complaining about how Mark Cuban doesn't do more for the poor white people in Arkansas. That's the kind of thing the Klan might say.
I really don't know the contents of your conversation with Reggie Miller but I will tell you that you're wrong on Jim Brown. Players don't have to give money to make a difference. Did you know that in Los Angeles when Gang violence reached it's peak and brothers were killing each other daily, it was Jim Brown who called for a truce and met with gang members from the crips and bloods and convinced them to put down their weapons?
What I was stating earlier was that Shaq and Magic did not give out hand outs, what they did was create jobs for those communities that had no jobs. That's not a hand out, thats an opportunity for them to live the american dream. Nobody wants a ing hand out and its stupid to say so.
Hmm. Doesn't seem that I'm the one with a research problem. Three members of the NOI were convicted of his murder. They are as guilty as James Earl Ray is of killing MLK, (or the stroke was that killed "Martin Luther").Saying the NOI killed Malcolm X is more correct than saying Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy or that OJ killed his wife. You might just as well suggest that Malcolm killed himself when he exposed Elijah Mohammad's habit of knocking up his secretaries.
I'm not sure how what you said is in disagreement with the fact that Jim Brown retired so he could make movies. He was told to choose, and he chose. Kobe and Michael should take a page from Jim's book and tell him to kiss their ass.
I have no idea what you are talking about. My facts are accurate.Just make it up as you go along right.
Chris Rock said it best. "Shaq is rich, the guy that pays Shaq is wealthy."
To address some of this mess...
The entire "the black community preys on itself and doesn't do enough to further its own racial interests" line comes straight from Malcolm X's speeches and his Autobiography. It's in the section where he discusses that the Jewish people have a strong iden y and think in terms of furthering their group interests, while African-American people are more interested in ripping each other off. I believe it's in the chapter where he first moves to Boston.
To be fair, Malcolm X thought that all social change had to come from large scale movements and individual activism. He probably would have considered handouts from wealthy African-Americans little better than handouts from Whites.
Your problem is that you confuse social activism and giving back to the community with a monetary handout. I never said a damn word about "handouts." Maybe you should question your own prejudices every once in a while.
You don't know what a production company does, obviously. A production company puts up the money in order to realize a greater share of the profits. Basically, a mega-corporation like SONY is saying "Gee, Eddie we'd like to give you a bigger share of the wealth that you are creating for us. Why don't you take all of the real financial risks and produce this movie. Then we'll be happy to tell you where, when, and how you can market it." Production and distribution are rarely related in the film industry, at all.
Michael Jackson sold almost all of his intellectual property and distribution rights to pound sand into the rathole that is the debt service on NeverNever Land.
Your heart may or may not bleed, but I feel sorry for your finances. A slightly below average pro athlete could make far less than a million dollars in four to five years, depending on the sport. (A baseball player making $10,000 a year in the Frontier League is still a professional.) Even if you and your wife only gross $60,000 per year combined, you'll easily make two million during your peak earning years. Currently, an average to mediocre MLB player won't gross two million on his rookie contract and arbitration.
In most industries, if you as an employee made millions as personal income (salary) in four to five years, while generating considerably more revenue (profit) for the company, you could reasonably expect eventual promotion to management and/or some participation in ownership.
Entertainment (including sports) is very different. The "talent" and "business" sides of a given enterprise rarely coincide. This is not the fault of black athletes and entertainers. However, the truth is that the real money is in distribution and control of the means of production. To my knowledge, there is no significant African-American presence in the ownership of theater chains, CD pressing plants, and the like. I can't prove or disprove this very easily. However, the fact that SONY and other overseas interests hold such a huge percentage share (and there aren't many black Japanese folk) tends to suggest this is the case. I think we can all agree that African Americans and Latin Americans are not proportionately represented in the management and ownership of professional sports franchises.
I think its pretty obvious that athletes and entertainers are disposable commodities to Rupert Murdoch, Time/Warner, and the like. You may or may not care, but it has a profound effect on the power base and infuence of African Americans. If the most influential people, the people with the most media access, and the best-known members of your ethnic or racial group are essentially just very highly paid wage slaves, it matters.
There's a big difference between a sense of en lement to free handouts or dragging successful African Americans down to the lowest common denominator and what I have been trying to address. To people like Eddie Murphy and Michael Jordan I say this: The African-American people, for whatever reason(s), suffer disproportionately from the societal problems of unemployment, crime, drug abuse, and poor education. You have the opportunity to be a leader; please don't be a vulture instead.
You can make all of the excuses you want, but how many successful white entertainers and athletes are heavily identified with a particular cause, charity, or ideology? Pretty much all of them. I think every A list Hollywood celebrity feels obligated to make a "message" movie at one point or another. Kobe Bryant's next political act will be his first.
You can hide behind rhetoric and rugged individualism all you want. The bottom line is that it isn't working for Africans in America. If the help comes from White America, then White America still controls their destiny. At least if the help comes from successful African-Americans, then they "own" some stake in their own liberation.
Exactly. If Kobe does or does not endorse a political candidate, its really meaningless. I have my own set of ideals, beliefs, and most importantly (separating Kobe and I the most) needs. The opinions of the rich are only worth as much as the next man's.
Some people don't realize that its not just a game, its their Jobs. Everyone who has a job is going to look for a pay raise.....
sorry jim
Not everyone feels the need to throw there views into the face of fans
I like MJ and Kobe because they could ball and I really dont want to hear anything else from them
This is getting unraveled. I'm with you on most of the other issues, though. Thanks for the info on the production companies.
A quick google came up with a CNNSI article that's from 1999:
NBA players have the highest average salary in professional sports, about $2.6 million annually, and the median salary is about $1.3 million. NFL players average about $900,000, and major league baseball pays an average of $1.45 million.
Your attempts to link the poor indentured servant in the Frontier league with Kobe Bryant aside, even a WNBA player makes 35-55 thousand for less than a year's work, and probably had a shot at a free college education.
Again, I have a hard time feeling sorry for the poor MLB rookie who makes as much before he's 25 as my wife and I do during our peak earning years. Even if it takes him an entire decade to make two million dollars, it ain't exactly picking cotton.
In the real world, there's a difference between a salaried employee and one working under contract. Those under contract are not eligible for promotions, raises, or benefits. The idea that a pro athlete should be given an opportunity to go to the front office of a team just because he played for them is as silly as the idea of letting the owner suit up because he bought the team. It's still something that happens far too often, if you look at examples like Matt Millen and Isiah Thomas.
The bottom line for me is that Jim Brown is en led to his opinion, but he should be wise enough to avoid his impulses when there's a microphone in his face. I absolutely reject the idea that anyone "owes" their ethnic group anything or that they are guilty of something nefarious if they simply choose to live their lives like everyone else does. People like Al Sharpton and Ted Kennedy preying on blacks in this country causes more damage than a hundred Kobe Bryants could fix, but Jim Brown doesn't seem to have the courage to take them on.
I suspect we actually agree more than we disagree.
As we have addressed, part of the problem is that the sports and entertainment enterprises simply do not have enough “management” positions to accommodate every retired athlete and washed-up musician. That’s still a part of the problem. If blacks excel only in the fields that ultimately shut them out from ownership or real control, then it is a problem. If black kids don’t realize that they are more statistically likely to win the Nobel Prize than make the first round of the NBA Draft or the Hollywood Blvd. Walk of Fame, then it is a problem. (In all honesty, I think we can all agree on that; maybe I should just lay off the rhetoric.)
I would have to agree that Jim Brown should focus his attention more on charlatans like Farrakhan, Sharpton, and Jackson than Kobe Bryant. Obviously, Bryant and Jordan are under no moral or legal imperative to be civil rights leaders. In contrast, the so-called leaders need to lead, not play the blame game.
My real point is that the "keepin' it real" mentality is a cop-out. Millions of dollars SHOULD change your life, your views, and your expectations. To me personally, half the fun of having great wealth would be to make the world better for other people. As George Carlin said, "You can't have everything. Where would you keep it?"
JB grew up and broke into the NFL at a time when African-American men in some parts of the United States could be killed for voting, or for looking at a white women the wrong way. The black athletes of today didn't face the same pressures and predicaments as he and his contemporaries did. , Kobe didn't even spend a lot of his formative years in this country. I respect JB, especially as a Browns fan, but he's from a different era, one I'd imagine the young men of today have a hard time relating to.
I suspect that we probably are very close to agreeing, to the point where I'm not positive where we disagree any more. Many of the things JB says may be correct, but I really dislike when someone tries to shame someone else into fitting into the mold that the conventional wisdom sets for them. I particularly dislike self-appointed mouthpieces of the black community implying that someone is "right" or "wrong" for simply living their lives, or targeting successful people for whatever reason (remember the "Whitney Houston talks too white" controversy?).
I love Jim Brown, and as I've said he is en led to his opinion, but he's is getting crochety in his old age and would be yelling for the kids to get off his lawn if nobody put a microphone in his face. I'm sure someone of his stature has Kobe Bryant's phone number. If he has something useful to say instead of a need for attention, he should probably communicate privately. That's just my opinion.
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