KB24.com: Kobe vs Jordan

[ambchang]

I don't think Kobe's going to be penalized for starting earlier than Jordan as Kobe didn't get much PT in the ealier years anyways. CP3 is a point guard and will have his place. DWade is definitely a compelling player and #2 behind Kobe at the SG spot. I don't know if DWade is ready to pass up Kobe in the near future, this year will tell.

4 more years is not the near future, 4 years is a long time in the NBA. And Kobe wasn't penalized for starting earlier, I took those "non-prime" years off te calcualtion to make it fair for Kobe. If anything, the analysis was biased towards Kobe.

Kobe's averaged 2,500 points a season over the last 3 years. Let's give him some decline and give him 2,000 points a season. He'll pass up Jordan by 35 with probably 2-3 more years of playing time left to catch up with the Mailman. This is one of the easier milestones in Kobe's career I think.

I would not use the word easy to describe this task. Scoring 2000 points a season is tough, doing it 5 more seasons is tougher, doing it 8 season straight is record approaching.

Why are you considering their peak number which is normally thrown out as oddball #'s? Practically all of those guys were known for their 3 point shooting since they entered the NBA. One of the best known 3 point shooters ever was Larry Bird and he was an 80s guy. Jordan just didn't have the skill.

I didn't just take out their best season, I took the string of years when they had the most 3PAs, which is consistent with how you would look at 3Ps being a weapon.

Yes 3 point shooting has increased dramatically but scoring in general has increased dramatically since the 90s. Also, practically all of the best 3 point shooters come from Jordan's era.

So Kobe can’t even score more than Jordan even though Kobe was scoring in an era that has dramatically more scoring than Jordan’s? How would this help your case with Kobe having the same impact as Jordan?

Besides, the numbers don’t support you (Numbers are average per team):
Year PPG 3PA
2008 99.9 1485
2003 95.1 1204
1998 95.6 1042
1993 105.3 734
1988 108.2 410

We can see that the league has gone through huge dips in scoring in the mid 90’s to the early 00’s, and is bouncing back the last few years, while 3PA has consistently increased over the last 20 years. There is absolutely no doubt that the 3pter has been a bigger part of most team’s offense than in years past.

On the other hand, even though the league saw huge dips in scoring in the early to mid 90’s, Jordan’s output stayed relatively constant.

I dont think Jordan accomplished that much by age 33. Please check your facts below again. Also, a more telling statistic (which my friend wouldn't post ) would be to compare the two at the age of 29 (Kobe just turned 30 and has the full season left).

Yes he did. If you have doubts, look it up and tell me which ones I missed. I could have misstated some of them, but I am not going to do the work to prove myself wrong, that is for you to do.

Kobe had more accomplishments by age 30 because he started to play in the league when he was 18, Jordan started when he was 23. Just because Kobe had 5 more years on him doesn’t make him more skilled, which was the original argument. Kobe started early strictly based on the fact that teams were drafting high school players in droves since Kevin Garnett’s, and to a less extent Shawn Kemp’s, success.

[Allanon]

I presume that you include "the day he turned 30" for some reason, but by the end of the season in which he turned 30, Jordan had won an NCAA le, been the Naismith and Wooden player of the year in college,

The Great Michael Jordan was so great he needs some extra bonus points from college to be compared with Kobe?

had won two regular season MVPs, led the league in scoring seven years in a row

And had been called selfish because he was leading the league in scoring but not winning. Kobe could have led the league in scoring and also was called selfish.

became the second person in NBA history to score 3000 points in a season

You laugh at Kobe's 81 but Jordan's 3000 is a great career achievement .. bias. Even though Jordan was just another glorified Allen Iverson at that time.

had won three NBA les and three Finals MVPs, (also became the first person in NBA history to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in that same season, yet wasn't awarded the MVP), set the record for most points in a playoff game...

Again, trying to give Jordan some more extra hand-jobbing. Kobe doesn't end his 30th year until this upcoming July. So on par.

On the day he turned 30, Jordan had 2 rings

Kobe has 3 rings

By your weak attempts to compare, someone could make a case that Tony Parker is as close to Jordan as Kobe is.

Uhm, you started the weak attempts to compare. Wake me up when Tony Parker wins MVP.

[Allanon]

Kobe had more accomplishments by age 30 because he started to play in the league when he was 18

Jordan started when he was 23. Just because Kobe had 5 more years on him doesn’t make him more skilled, which was the original argument. Kobe started early strictly based on the fact that teams were drafting high school players in droves since Kevin Garnett’s, and to a less extent Shawn Kemp’s, success.

When was "being more skilled" the argument? I believe the argument is Kobe that "faaar" behind Jordan at age 30 as another genius posted?

Yes he did. If you have doubts, look it up and tell me which ones I missed. I could have misstated some of them, but I am not going to do the work to prove myself wrong, that is for you to do.

Jordan had 4 rings at 33, only 1 more than Kobe has now at 30 years old, and if Kobe wins the le this year, he would have tied Jordan's 33 year old # of rings 3 years earlier.

[ambchang]

When was "being more skilled" the argument? I believe the argument is Kobe that "faaar" behind Jordan at age 30 as another genius posted?

Jordan had 4 rings at 33, only 1 more than Kobe has now at 30 years old, and if Kobe wins the le this year, he would have tied Jordan's 33 year old # of rings 3 years earlier.

Sure, if you want to argue Jordan and Kobe at age 30, look at Obstructed View's post, there really is no comparison after that.

And saying that Kobe won 3 rings and Jordan "only" won 2, while disregarding the difference between Shaq and Pippen is laughable. That is like saying Garnett > Barkley because he got one ring, or Ginobili > Clyde Drexler

[m33p0]

using the ring argument is foolish. see horry, robert for proof. it's not the number of rings, but the way the rings were obtained.

what a load of blithers this thread has become. but it is to be expected whenever some fool makes a kobe vs jordan piece of crap.

[Allanon]

Sure, if you want to argue Jordan and Kobe at age 30, look at Obstructed View's post, there really is no comparison after that.

Yes, Obstructed View's College awards night. And his forgetting to mention Kobe had 1 more ring than Jordan.

And saying that Kobe won 3 rings and Jordan "only" won 2, while disregarding the difference between Shaq and Pippen is laughable. That is like saying Garnett > Barkley because he got one ring, or Ginobili > Clyde Drexler

Pippen is also a Top50 player and arguably the best defender of that era. It takes two. Jordan never won without Pippen.

[Allanon]

using the ring argument is foolish. see horry, robert for proof. it's not the number of rings, but the way the rings were obtained.

what a load of blithers this thread has become. but it is to be expected whenever some fool makes a kobe vs jordan piece of crap.

Would Jordan have been GOAT without rings? See Chamerlain, Wilt for proof.

[Obstructed_View]

Yes, Obstructed View's College awards night. And his forgetting to mention Kobe had 1 more ring than Jordan.

Jordan turned 30 two months before he won his third ring. Your attempt to split hairs by birthday is no less lame than when you tried it the first time. Again, Parker has the same number of rings as Kobe, has one more Finals MVP and is four years younger. By your logic Parker>>>>>Kobe. Welcome to ridiculousville, population you.

Pippen is also a Top50 player and arguably the best defender of that era. It takes two. Jordan never won without Pippen.

That's as close to a true statement as you've made in this thread. Two things: Pip was the second best defender on the Bulls, and on the three Lakers championship teams, the part of Pippen was played by Kobe.

[Allanon]

Jordan turned 30 two months before he won his third ring. Your attempt to split hairs by birthday is no less lame than when you tried it the first time.

Yes, and if Kobe wins a ring this year, how old would he be? 30. Kobe hasn't played this season yet but you want to give Jordan an extra season? I can't believe the Great Jordan needs to have extra help by you.

Again, Parker has the same number of rings as Kobe, has one more Finals MVP and is four years younger. By your logic Parker>>>>>Kobe. Welcome to ridiculousville, population you.

Jordan had 2 MVPs, Kobe has 1. Parker 0. Wake me up when Parker gets an MVP. Until then, that's a baseless comparison.

[Obstructed_View]

Yes, and if Kobe wins a ring this year, how old would he be? 30. I can't believe the Great Jordan needs to have extra help by you.

When Jordan won his third ring, he was 30 years, two months. If Kobe wins a ring this year, it'll be his first as the best player on the team. That will only put him two behind Jordan with an extra year to do it.

Jordan had 2 MVPs, Kobe has 1. Parker 0. Wake me up when Parker gets an MVP. Until then, that's a baseless comparison.

Thank you for agreeing how stupid your argument was. Too bad it didn't stop you from continuing to make it.

[Allanon]

When Jordan won his third ring, he was 30 years, two months. If Kobe wins a ring this year, it'll be his first as the best player on the team. That will only put him two behind Jordan with an extra year to do it.

Oh, so now Kobe's 3 rings he already has means nothing? Tell that to Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. If Kobe wins a ring this year, he will be 30 with 4 rings to Jordan's 3.

Thank you for agreeing how stupid your argument was. Too bad it didn't stop you from continuing to make it.

Stupid? You brought up Tony Parker, I didn't. That was YOUR stupid argument, not mines.

Pick a 30 or under player with at least 3 rings and 1 MVP and then we'll talk about how they stack up with Jordan at 30.

[ambchang]

Yes, Obstructed View's College awards night. And his forgetting to mention Kobe had 1 more ring than Jordan.

What is wrong with College Awards? Jordan DID accomplish them, and Kobe didn't. You are free to dismiss Jordan's college accomplishment because Kobe never played in college, but you are quick to group his accomplishments from age 18 to 23, when he played in the NBA earlier than Jordan did.

Pippen is also a Top50 player and arguably the best defender of that era. It takes two. Jordan never won without Pippen.

So? Are you also arguing Jordan = Pippen? They both have 6 rings, they can't win without another top 50 player, then even had the same supporting cast!

According to you, Otis Thorpe > Malone, because Thorpe won a ring with a top 50 player with him (Hakeem), and yet Malone couldn't with another top 50 player playing with him (Stockton). Hey Hakeem and Stockton are the same, they are both top 50 players!

[Allanon]

What is wrong with College Awards? Jordan DID accomplish them, and Kobe didn't. You are free to dismiss Jordan's college accomplishment because Kobe never played in college, but you are quick to group his accomplishments from age 18 to 23, when he played in the NBA earlier than Jordan did.

Sure, if you need to include College Awards, was Jordan that much greater than Jordan at age 30? It was said that Jordan was "faaar" ahead of Kobe at age 30...but you need to include College Awards? Including college awards doesn't sound "faaar" ahead to me. Sounds like another Obstructed View weak attempt to me

So? Are you also arguing Jordan = Pippen? They both have 6 rings, they can't win without another top 50 player, then even had the same supporting cast!

No, I'm saying you can't throw out Kobe's 3 rings just because he also had a great player with him. Kobe couldn't do it alone, Jordan couldn't either.

According to you, Otis Thorpe > Malone, because Thorpe won a ring with a top 50 player with him (Hakeem), and yet Malone couldn't with another top 50 player playing with him (Stockton). Hey Hakeem and Stockton are the same, they are both top 50 players!

According to me? When did I ever say playing with another great player made you better than x player? I said you cannot just throw out 1 player's accomplishments because he had a great player with him.

You're trying to take away Kobe's 3 rings because he played with Shaq, but Jordan get's a free pass on Pippen.

[Many PackYao]

You know what else he didn't do. Let someone with half his talent like Paul Pierce kick his ass in the NBA finals.

I can't understand why Kobe let Clit Pierce do him like that.I kept yelling at the TV, it's time to take over the game Kobe!!..but it never happened. I was actually rooting for the Lakers to win because I like Kobe only and I really,really hate the Celtics.

[ambchang]

Sure, if you need to include College Awards, was Jordan that much greater than Jordan at age 30? It was said that Jordan was "faaar" ahead of Kobe at age 30...but you need to include College Awards? Including college awards doesn't sound "faaar" ahead to me. Sounds like another Obstructed View weak attempt to me

Why don't you throw out the college awards then? Jordan still has a sizeable lead on Kobe.

Besides, at this point in his career, what would make you think that Kobe would have such drastic improvement that he would close the gap and make him possibly greater than Jordan inthe future?

No, I'm saying you can't throw out Kobe's 3 rings just because he also had a great player with him. Kobe couldn't do it alone, Jordan couldn't either.

By the same logic, you can't throw out Pippen's 6 rings. Jordan couldn't do it alone, Pippen couldn't either. By your definition, those 6 rings of Pippen's is of equal value in accomplishments as Jordan's 6 rings.

According to me? When did I ever say playing with another great player made you better than x player? I said you cannot just throw out 1 player's accomplishments because he had a great player with him.

You're trying to take away Kobe's 3 rings because he played with Shaq, but Jordan get's a free pass on Pippen.

So you ARE saying that Otis Thorpe has better accomplishments than Malone, because both had top 50 players as their teammates, and yet one of them won a ring (despite being the clear #2 guy), and the other didn't (despite being arguably the #1 guy).

[dbreiden83080]

You're trying to take away Kobe's 3 rings because he played with Shaq, but Jordan get's a free pass on Pippen.

Jordan does not get a free pass but you have to put that comparison in the proper perspective. Shaq is by really all accounts one of the 5 best centers of all time. Most even put him in the top 10 of all time of all players in history or very close to it. Scottie Pippen was at best, great at one thing and one thing only, defense. Was he a dominant scorer? No. A dominant rebounder? No. Did he command massive double teams getting his mates all day long to shoot the ball? Not the Scottie Pippen i saw play. Shaq put up finals numbers that were off the charts. Playoff games putting up 30 pts and 20 reb, there is no comparison. Pippen was a damn good player, no doubt but Shaq is an all time legendary player and was the driving force that won those 3 les. Kobe gets credit for his role, the Lakers don't win those 3 les without him but his career will forever be seen in 2 parts because he was the 2nd best player on those teams. Yeah it takes 2 to get it done, but he was number 2, MJ was always number 1 on his teams. So far his post Shaq career in terms of defining his legacy has not gone well at all. He needs to start winning les and right now.

[Allanon]

Why don't you throw out the college awards then? Jordan still has a sizeable lead on Kobe.

Without the College Awards, there is no sizeable lead on Kobe. Kobe still had 3 rings to Jordan's 2.

Besides, at this point in his career, what would make you think that Kobe would have such drastic improvement that he would close the gap and make him possibly greater than Jordan inthe future?[

Kobe would not need drastic improvement, what he needs to do is start winning. Exactly the same as Jordan did at this age. I don't say he will, but he can possibly do it. I don't this it's logical for you to say it is impossible for him to do it.

By the same logic, you can't throw out Pippen's 6 rings. Jordan couldn't do it alone, Pippen couldn't either. By your definition, those 6 rings of Pippen's is of equal value in accomplishments as Jordan's 6 rings.

Yes, Pippen's rings are just as much of an accomplishment as Jordan's were.

So you ARE saying that Otis Thorpe has better accomplishments than Malone, because both had top 50 players as their teammates, and yet one of them won a ring (despite being the clear #2 guy), and the other didn't (despite being arguably the #1 guy).

When did I ever say this?

[Allanon]

Jordan does not get a free pass but you have to put that comparison in the proper perspective. Shaq is by really all accounts one of the 5 best centers of all time. Most even put him in the top 10 of all time of all players in history or very close to it. Scottie Pippen was at best, great at one thing and one thing only, defense. Was he a dominant scorer? No. A dominant rebounder? No. Did he command massive double teams getting his mates all day long to shoot the ball? Not the Scottie Pippen i saw play. Shaq put up finals numbers that were off the charts. Playoff games putting up 30 pts and 20 reb, there is no comparison. Pippen was a damn good player, no doubt but Shaq is an all time legendary player and was the driving force that won those 3 les. Kobe gets credit for his role, the Lakers don't win those 3 les without him but his career will forever be seen in 2 parts because he was the 2nd best player on those teams. Yeah it takes 2 to get it done, but he was number 2, MJ was always number 1 on his teams.

Although he had a 2nd man role, it's no less of an accomplishment than the #1 guy. Just like Pippen's rings are no less important than Jordan's.

So far his post Shaq career in terms of defining his legacy has not gone well at all. He needs to start winning les and right now.

Finally, something we can agree upon. Yes, this is what I've said all along. Don't close the book on Kobe yet. This is very bad year to contemplate this discussion, this year was the crossroads into GOATdom for Jordan and Kobe is just enterting it, it could go either way.

It won't be easy and he may never do it. But if it's ever to be done, he needs to start winning and he needs to win right now.

[dirk4mvp]

Although he had a 2nd man role, it's no less of an accomplishment than the #1 guy. Just like Pippen's rings are no less important than Jordan's.

Then why did Jordan win all 6 Finals MVPs?

[dbreiden83080]

Although he had a 2nd man role, it's no less of an accomplishment than the #1 guy. Just like Pippen's rings are no less important than Jordan's.

They are vastly less important when defining a legacy this is what you aren't getting. D-Rob is not going down with Duncan's legacy, why because he needed Duncan to finally win the le and he played a secondary role. It's a great accomplishment that he won but he is not the primary reason they did win. You can't compare the careers of Pippen and Shaq, as i laid out in the last post. This is the part of the argument where you have the least wiggle room. I agree Kobe can win rings and he will go down with a top 10 legacy if that happens but he is not going to get the same credit for those les with Shaq as Jordan does with Pippen, it simply isn't the same. Shaq's a legendary player Scottie isn't.

[dbreiden83080]

Although he had a 2nd man role, it's no less of an accomplishment than the #1 guy. Just like Pippen's rings are no less important than Jordan's.

This is like saying, Tony Parker's ring's mean just as much as Tim Duncan's, no they don't, not even close.

[Allanon]

This is like saying, Tony Parker's ring's mean just as much as Tim Duncan's, no they don't, not even close.

I think this sums up the point from above so I'll answer this one.

If Tony were to end up with 6 rings and Duncan only had 4, would you say his first 3 rings don't count. If Tony has only 3, then yes, but in the context of 6 rings.

This is the same as Kobe. He has 3 rings now "tainted" by Shaq. If Kobe gets 6 rings, nobody's going to hold Shaq over his head in his list of accomplishments.

[z0sa]

No, I'm saying you can't throw out Kobe's 3 rings just because he also had a great player with him. Kobe couldn't do it alone, Jordan couldn't either.

Jordan = 6 finals mvps total, 6 rings, 6 finals appearances

Kobe = 0 finals mvps now, 3 rings, 5 finals appearances

You have no point, unless its to be foolish. Maybe you're simply a homer and won't admit it?

[Allanon]

Jordan = 6 finals mvps total, 6 rings, 6 finals appearances

Kobe = 0 finals mvps now, 3 rings, 5 finals appearances

You have no point, unless its to be foolish. Maybe you're simply a homer and won't admit it?

Don't try to be stupid. Kobe has 6-8 years left to get Rings and Finals MVPs unless you think Kobe's career is over?

[dbreiden83080]

I think this sums up the point from above so I'll answer this one.

My prior post was even better

If Tony were to end up with 6 rings and Duncan only had 4, would you say his first 3 rings don't count. If Tony has only 3, then yes, but in the context of 6 rings.

Like i said it all comes down to the cir stances of how those rings were won. All the rings count, but there are various levels when defining great players legacies. Questions that would need to be asked are, who did Tony play with after Timmy was retired, was he the man on those teams, finals mvp's, playoff performnaces, etc. How much did he contribute, how much help did he need??

This is the same as Kobe. He has 3 rings now "tainted" by Shaq. If Kobe gets 6 rings, nobody's going to hold Shaq over his head in his list of accomplishments.

Completely incorrect. You need to step outside how much of a Laker fan you are. You want to just tally up rings and say "if Kobe hits 6 the Jordan comparisons will begin". It's not that simple, when the first half of his career he played with one of the 5 best centers ever who was the driving force behind the les. Re-read my Duncan and D-Rob comparison. Does he have rings yes? Is he slapped down a peg for needing Duncan to get over the hump? You better believe it. Again Kobe's career will be a career in 2 parts, with Shaq and post Shaq. Jordan doesn't have that problem. He played second fiddle to nobody his whole career.