Your Vote, Your Reasons

[tp2021]

no

DANGIT! I can't believe you got the 1000th post with THAT.

You got post 1000!
1000! 1000!

[TheMadHatter]

no

No to what.

If you are unwillingly to acknowledge to me that what you believe about God and religion may indeed be incorrect that is arrogance of the highest degree IMHO. In other words, I want you to admit to me that everything you believe about God is entirely faith based and not based on any factual evidence.

You and the majority of Christians, Muslims, and Jews cannot do this though. You cannot hold your views without denying the idea that maybe, just MAYBE, you might be wrong. It's the ultimate in small mindedness.

[timvp]

I want you to admit to me that everything you believe about God is entirely faith based

Religion is based on faith?

TheMadHatter is really charting new territory. Impressive

[TheMadHatter]

Religion is based on faith?

TheMadHatter is really charting new territory. Impressive

That's my point Tim. To many Christians faith and fact are one and the same.

[Trainwreck2100]

It's the ultimate in small mindedness.

so is "I have no problem with you as long as you do this, this, and this."

[Tully365]

The interesting thing about faith is how it is usually unacceptable in any other argument outside of religion. If two people are debating economic theory and one asks the other to justify a certain stance, the response "I don't need to prove it-- I have faith in it..." would be met with ridicule, even from religious economists.

[TheMadHatter]

so is "I have no problem with you as long as you do this, this, and this."

No.

Here is what I'm saying.

If you are a Christian, you have no factual proof or evidence that would indicate that Jesus is the Son of God. There is none, it just doesn't exist I'm sorry. And no, the Bible is not factual proof that would stand up in any court of law or scientific/historical debate.

You believe what you believe through FAITH. Faith is believing in something that you have no factual proof or evidence for. Therefore it is not unreasonable at all for me to ask that those who do believe in Christianity to acknowledge that they do so through complete blind faith. Not because they can factually prove what they believe is right.

[Trainwreck2100]

No.

Here is what I'm saying.

If you are a Christian, you have no factual proof or evidence that would indicate that Jesus is the Son of God. There is none, it just doesn't exist I'm sorry. And no, the Bible is not factual proof that would stand up in any court of law or scientific/historical debate.

You believe what you believe through FAITH. Faith is believing in something that you have no factual proof or evidence for. Therefore it is not unreasonable at all for me to ask that those who do believe in Christianity to acknowledge that they do so through complete blind faith. Not because they can factually prove what they believe is right.

Same can be said for science.

[TheMadHatter]

Same can be said for science.

Wow you are challenging Angel Luv for the most ridiculous thing said in this thread. Congrats!

[TheMadHatter]

Same can be said for science.

And for the record everything we believe as factual in science is actually backed up by facts. Nothing you believe in religion is supported by any real convincing factual evidence, that is why you have blind faith that it is true. It is imperative that you understand this distinction.

[Tully365]

"I do not think that modern science-- and the theory of relativity in particular-- provides us with any justification for moral relativity. On the contrary, our age is marked by a clear division between talk about science and talk about values. This means that moral responsibility cannot hide behind self-interested justifications. On the other hand, I believe that, even in the past, what has really counted, more than the weight of well-defined moralities, has been a process of ethical seeking, forever problematic and forever risky. A Christian too sure of himself about what is right and wrong has never, I believe, been a good Christian."

~Italo Calvino

[DWest30]

:::cough::: Sri Lanka :::cough:::

Thank you....

[jochhejaam]

"I do not think that modern science-- and the theory of relativity in particular-- provides us with any justification for moral relativity. On the contrary, our age is marked by a clear division between talk about science and talk about values. This means that moral responsibility cannot hide behind self-interested justifications. On the other hand, I believe that, even in the past, what has really counted, more than the weight of well-defined moralities, has been a process of ethical seeking, forever problematic and forever risky. A Christian too sure of himself about what is right and wrong has never, I believe, been a good Christian."

~Italo Calvino

Biblically speaking, wrong equates to sin, therefore to be right one must refrain from sin. Regarding salvation, the focus for Christians in their quest to share this message should not be on dealing with the right or wrong of any one particular sin, but sin in general. True conversion (that is, a realization or enlightenment that we are all sinners; a redemptive, confessing and cleansing from those sins), once obtained, instills within the heart of man a rather clear sense of what is right and what is wrong, there should be no conflict with the morality, or absolutes that abide in Scripture.

The emphasis from a Christian to the unenlightened should not be to hammer them about their sinful life, nor to heap condemnation upon them (indeed, we are born into sin), but to inform them that the Christ was "sent into the World, not to condemn, but to bring salvation to the World.

We don't get caught up in trivial arguements such as "is smoking a sin, is drinking a sin", etc., those are side issues or distractions from the Gospel's thrust which is to release us from the burden and condemnation of all sin.
When we fall short, and we all do on a daily basis, we know it, the reflexive realization of that sin leads us to seek forgiveness, and that forgiveness is uncondition and immediately there upon asking, we then move on from there.

I don't get caught up in arguments about what is and what is not sin on minor issues, there are ample opportunities each day to talk to and encourage those who are earnestly seeking God, or who have sincere and honest questions about God and Christ.

[AntiChrist]

I notice that this thread was started by DarkReign.

That's what my presidency will be.


I fell into a burning ring of fire.
I went down, down, down, and the flames went higher.
And it burns, burns, burns. The ring of fire.
The ring of fire.

[ElNono]

Same can be said for science.

WTF? Are you really this ignorant, or you're just being a ?

[Trainwreck2100]

And for the record everything we believe as factual in science is actually backed up by facts. Nothing you believe in religion is supported by any real convincing factual evidence, that is why you have blind faith that it is true. It is imperative that you understand this distinction.

WTF? Are you really this ignorant, or you're just being a ?

what came before the big bang?

[Goliadnative]

what came before the big bang?

This hasn't been discovered yet, but they have faith, to the point of almost being blind, that science some day, some way will find out.

[Findog]

what came before the big bang?

An extremely dense and hot primordial state.

[Mr. Peabody]

what came before the big bang?

There is no "before the Big Bang" because there was no time until the Big Bang occurred. Therefore, the question is meaningless.

[MannyIsGod]

what came before the big bang?

You suck at bebating. The answer is we don't know. Science doesn't have all the answers and it has never claimed as much.

[DaDakota]

Voting for the steady hand, the intelligent thoughtful person....someone who WILL blink and think.

Obama.

DD

[BRHornet45]

sons anybody but this long legged freak called Obama

[Extra Stout]

If you are a Christian, you have no factual proof or evidence that would indicate that Jesus is the Son of God. There is none, it just doesn't exist I'm sorry. And no, the Bible is not factual proof that would stand up in any court of law or scientific/historical debate.

You believe what you believe through FAITH. Faith is believing in something that you have no factual proof or evidence for. Therefore it is not unreasonable at all for me to ask that those who do believe in Christianity to acknowledge that they do so through complete blind faith. Not because they can factually prove what they believe is right.

There is no scientific evidence that the one God of the universe was incarnated into the womb of an adolescent Jewish virgin in the Levant during the height of the Roman Empire: correct.

There is no scientific evidence that he miraculously transformed water into wine, healed people of diseases, and fed thousands of people with small amounts of food: correct.

There is no scientific evidence that he, having been crucified, was resurrected on the third day and later ascended into heaven: correct.

There is a reason it is called salvation by faith, and not salvation by objective proof.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Biblically speaking, wrong equates to sin, therefore to be right one must refrain from sin. Regarding salvation, the focus for Christians in their quest to share this message should not be on dealing with the right or wrong of any one particular sin, but sin in general.

The problem for me, and I think some of the frustration being expressed by others is that in my experience so few people claiming to be practicing Christians actually read or know the Bible. They do not contemplate or question the finer points of their religion. Instead they simply regurgitate things they have been told. When they are confused, they pray and when there's no burning bush telling them otherwise, they assume everything's okay. Obviously, not all Christians are like this, and it is not just a problem effecting those of faith. However, when one holds themselves up to be better than his peers, that person will be expected to maintain the higher standards they set for themselves. If most people claiming to be Christians actually followed more of the teachings of Christ and fewer of the warped interpretations that have filtered down, I can't imagine anyone having a problem.

True conversion (that is, a realization or enlightenment that we are all sinners; a redemptive, confessing and cleansing from those sins), once obtained, instills within the heart of man a rather clear sense of what is right and what is wrong, there should be no conflict with the morality, or absolutes that abide in Scripture.

And yet so many Christian "leaders" speak in nothing but absolutes, and they have brainwashed many of their followers to do so as well. Many who are on the fence about faith or who have (at least for the moment) rejected faith find this even more repulsive and frustrating. This is no way to promote fellowship.

The emphasis from a Christian to the unenlightened should not be to hammer them about their sinful life, nor to heap condemnation upon them (indeed, we are born into sin), but to inform them that the Christ was "sent into the World, not to condemn, but to bring salvation to the World.

Seriously, I get you. The thing is, growing up in America, I'm pretty sure there isn't a single person who hasn't been given the opportunity to learn this. There are signs at big events, commercials, television and movies, most of our National holidays. And, if that wasn't enough, we all have our peers inviting us to Bible camps, holiday pageants, picnics, special services, etc. Most people are informed to the point where Christ is jammed down our throats everyday, and that is not enough for some who want to all but force us to live in a Christian police state. I understand you may not be one of those people, but you should understand that those people exist, they are vocal, they have power and agendas and they annoy and often scare the rest of us.

We don't get caught up in trivial arguements such as "is smoking a sin, is drinking a sin", etc., those are side issues or distractions from the Gospel's thrust which is to release us from the burden and condemnation of all sin.

You may not get caught up in such things, but I assure you, most Christians I know worry about little else. Catholics have to keep a tally so they can report back for cleansing on a regular basis. Moreover, many preaching from the pulpit do little else but dwell on those "side issues or distractions" and most claim to have the 411 from the big guy himself.

When we fall short, and we all do on a daily basis, we know it, the reflexive realization of that sin leads us to seek forgiveness, and that forgiveness is uncondition and immediately there upon asking, we then move on from there.

I understand this is something that gives you peace and that you find beautiful about your faith. Unfortunately it is the basis for many confused Christians to justify and rationalize every wrong they do. "Oh well, if it's a sin, we all sin and God will forgive me." / "If I'm wrong, God will show me the right path." Or worse, they think God is okay with it because they had the idea in the first place. And this ease with which many "move on" from sin is also a bit terrifying for those of us who have to live with the cult like behavior of others on a regular basis. I'd much prefer people to sit in reflection, consider the sin, question themselves as to why they were led to it, spend legitimate time attempting to not make the same mistakes again. But for so many the "oh, well, Jesus forgives me and loves me" is the end of that process.

I don't get caught up in arguments about what is and what is not sin on minor issues...

Would that a majority of your fellows followed the same course - the at ude of people like myself would be much different toward Christians in general.

...there are ample opportunities each day to talk to and encourage those who are earnestly seeking God, or who have sincere and honest questions about God and Christ.

Forgetting, for one moment, that many of us don't want to be subjected to such talk and encouragement, you should at least understand when trying to engage in entering into fellowship with others that many claiming to be of your faith do more harm than good to your cause on a daily basis.

You may follow a more respectful path in your faith and that is commendable. But many - many - other "Christians" are doing everything they can to limit the rights and freedoms of the rest of us. That you cannot be responsible for their actions I understand. But that you might seek to justify them, or that you are content to let them warp the teachings of Christ makes you complicit in the overall problem. I understand you might not see it that way, and that's fine -- but it should be a point of view you keep in mind when interfacing with the more secular members of our species.

[LnGrrrR]

what came before the big bang?

I guess the same thing that came before your God.