Your Vote, Your Reasons

[ElNono]

I play the odds that you did not use your toes to type the entire message. I stated you would not have spent the time to type it that way and the odds that you don't have any arms is small.

Nothing wrong in saying I don't know. But the reality is you can say anything because no one can prove otherwise how you typed it but there is a true reality and I still say you used at least 1 finger. Thats my answer.

Right, so in a nuts , you don't know. I mean, the only fact you can take after you remove all the innuendo and guesstimates, is that you don't know.
That's exactly the response I was looking for. And that's fine, because rational thinking will take you to that. Heck, rational thinking will narrow down the options to a number between 0 and 10. If you could actually test those numbers, you would eventually find a response. I'm just not going to let you test those numbers until Trainwreck2100 answers.

The thing is, I suspect he's too prideful to come around and simply say 'I don't know', because then it would invalidate his assertion that 'I don't know' is an excuse, not a rational answer.

[LnGrrrR]

It's true, and you're screwed only if you wish to be, your choice, and even though your intent is to be sacastic, you are correct in that salvation comes simultaneously with the request, even if it's right before you pass on.

I love this idea; that you have a CHOICE to believe or not.

To all the religious people in the audience... could you CHOOSE to start believing in Allah? Just try it. Tell me if you acheive it.

Whether we believe or not is not a choice. We do believe, or we do not. We can make choices to be informed about the decision, but that decision comes to us unbidden. It's not a conscious realization.

(Additionally, if God wanted all of us to be saved, wouldn't he know what would convince each one of us? Wouldn't he therefore have the power to do so?)

[Trainwreck2100]

LOL... the 'we dont know card'...
Can you tell me how many fingers I'm using to type this text?

'I don't know' would OBVIOUSLY be the rational answer. Let's hear YOUR answer.

you tell me you are the only one who knows the answer to that. But i won't think less of you for knowing

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Whether we believe or not is not a choice.

Without chosing faith, you have not accepted Christ. This is the whole point of the fall from Grace and forgiveness through Christ.

What I think you mean is that the belief is so powerful it doesn't feel like a choice. Yes?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Here is my problem with most religions: their exclusivity.

just wondering. which religions do you agree with?

[LnGrrrR]

Without chosing faith, you have not accepted Christ. This is the whole point of the fall from Grace and forgiveness through Christ.

What I think you mean is that the belief is so powerful it doesn't feel like a choice. Yes?

Somewhat. The "choice" thing is false framing, just like the "choice" to be gay or not is.

Everyone who says they've CHOSEN Christ have not chosen it in a conventional sense. It's not what we normally define as a 'choice'. For instance, I can choose to have orange juice or apple juice. However, I can not choose to like or dislike the flavor of apple juice. I have no RATIONAL control over my tastebuds.

The same goes for religious 'choice'. No one "chooses" to believe on a conscious level. They either do or do not. Certain actions or knowledge can influence our belief structure, which may alter our outlook. But again, this is not a 'choice' per se, or not one as we normally define it.

I hope I've made myself more clear.

[101A]

@ JJ

Ok, enough of the back-biting bull between you and I. I am going to level with you.

I have never tried to convert the religious to my ideals. While I admittedly show little respect for organized religion (and I never will), I can and do respect the people who follow who show the capacity to think for themselves.

Here is my problem with most religions: their exclusivity.

That famous, probably most well known quote from the Bible (I am the way...) is the bone of contention, the hurdle I will never get over.

Because, according to you and others who do know scripture and its (supposed) deeper meaning, it quite literally means if you do not accept Jesus Christ specifically as your Lord and Savior, you do not go to our heaven.

Not Allah, not Buddha, not Shiva, not Santa Clause, not the Easter Bunny...Jesus Christ and JC only.

So, with that in mind, what happens to the people who are ignorant to Christianity by way of birthplace?

I dont know if this troubles you or why you waste your time responding to me (specifically) every time this religion stuff comes up, quoting some post I made years ago as evidence of my ignorance (you only had to ask) when I have NEVER, EVER claimed to know everything about the Bible and Christianity in general.

To be quite honest, I dont want to know. Not when I live under completely different moral principles that obviously do not disclude millions of other human beings based on their profession of belief to another God.

I think its too simple and quite narrow-minded to actually believe that there are a vast majority of people in the world going to (by your definition) based on those flimsy, faith-based criteria.

Like I said and I will always say, I would never align myself to such an ideal, no matter where it comes from. Its the same thinking we have in our current political climate.

Some parts of America are more American than others, or You hate America if youre against the Iraq war or the myriad of other divisive platforms used to seperate "Us" and "Them".

Im sorry, that sort of thinking and rationale runs completely counter to the very idea of "United We Stand, Divided We Fall, whether its politics or religion.

And by my judgement, of the the two philosophies, I would much rather participate and endorse the platform that includes the whole of man with NO caveats.

Its that simple.

DR.

As a Christian, I, for one, have never assumed our ability to know Jesus would be limited to our time as walking, talking Humans. My God isn't an asshole - he is all forgiving, all merciful, and all loving. He loves ALL of us; literally like a parent loves his children. You know how you go 1, 2, 2 and a half, 2 and three quarters.......etc. with your kids, because, ultimately you WANT them to do what you want them to do, but you can't make them, and damned if you're not going to get to 2 and 9944/10,000 before you ever say "THREE!" and have to ACTUALLY punish them. Not that God isn't above punishment - but he doesn't want to; he's full of second, third, etc...chances. Again, I never beleived those chances were limited to THIS life. Of course, like a parent, I also think he sets different levels of expectation: to him who much is given, much is expected, Camel through the eye of a needle, and all of that.

Also, MUCH of the bible (the New Testament) is the thoughts of disciples and the apostle Paul - that are not actually the words of Jesus. It is brilliantly assembled, and gives an outstanding model to live your life by. It certainly allows some people, on both sides of this argument, to pick and choose verses, out of context, to support an argument, or a flawed belief. Is it all "Divinely Inspired?"; Jesus did not say so, so that is, frankly, up for debate. Jesus NEVER mentions the New Testament (because it didn't exist). However, as a Christian, it is what I have - so, although I study the entire text; some of it I take as kind of preaching (James, for instance), but the Gospels, the stories of Jesus, and specifically his words; I take as, well, Gospel. They are a great starting point to find out what he was about, what his message is - and why he has so many followers today.

By the way, as a Christian, I have learned to, "Test Everything. Hold on to the good". 1 Thessolonians 5:21. That is what I do. I cannot be put into a box as to what I believe, because my Christianity is different than anyone elses.

You are right about many Christians: they are exclusionary, Christianity, and more specifically, Jesus Christ, are not.

[LnGrrrR]

just wondering. which religions do you agree with?

I know this question wasn't aimed towards me, but I'd just like to throw out that I think, of all exclusive faiths, Jewish people are the most honest with theirs. Their God is cruel in many ways, and they know and accept it. Also, I don't believe many Jews believe in a for non-believers. (At least, those I've talked to don't.)

[ElNono]

you tell me you are the only one who knows the answer to that. But i won't think less of you for knowing

LOL, nice attempt at dodging the question.
Answer the question.
I'll even promise to entertain your crackpot theories about god knowing the answer too later on. Do you know the answer to my question? If you do, then what is the answer?

[duncan228]

I know this question wasn't aimed towards me, but I'd just like to throw out that I think, of all exclusive faiths, Jewish people are the most honest with theirs. Their God is cruel in many ways, and they know and accept it. Also, I don't believe many Jews believe in a for non-believers. (At least, those I've talked to don't.)

As I understand it, Jews have no and no judgement day. They have a day of atonement every year on Yum Kippur, where they forgive and ask forgiveness of each other and God. You atone for your sins (hopefully) daily, and certainly once a year on the High Holy Days.

[Shastafarian]

I know this question wasn't aimed towards me, but I'd just like to throw out that I think, of all exclusive faiths, Jewish people are the most honest with theirs. Their God is cruel in many ways, and they know and accept it. Also, I don't believe many Jews believe in a for non-believers. (At least, those I've talked to don't.)

Jews don't believe in .

[101A]

I know this question wasn't aimed towards me, but I'd just like to throw out that I think, of all exclusive faiths, Jewish people are the most honest with theirs. Their God is cruel in many ways, and they know and accept it. Also, I don't believe many Jews believe in a for non-believers. (At least, those I've talked to don't.)

The Christian faith is an extension of Judaism. Jews are God's chosen people - from Abraham on. God made a covenant with them, that if they would obey the Ten Commandments, and follow the law set up in the old testament, they could earn his good favor. I believe that covenant still exists, and a Jew that can live up to that very high standard, does indeed earn God's favor. Many Christians believe that covenant no longer exists. My God isn't an indian-giver.

Jesus Christ refers to himself as the "New Covenant". He was born a Jew - and was a practicing one. Almost his ENTIRE message was that the original covenant, or set of instructions, had gotten too complicated, and weren't working out - we had screwed them all up. Jesus came to Earth as a man, led a sin-free life, and was killed for no good reason AT ALL. Jews at the time gave sacrifices to God for their sins - as instructed in the old Testament; Jesus was the ULTIMATE sacrifice - he lived a perfect life, and was sacrificed for the sins of our ENTIRE RACE - fulfilling the pact of the old covenant with God for ALL of us.

[DaDakota]

What ever happened to free will? Why edit out the books that don't agree with a certain male dominated dogma?

Why not include them and let each individual decide?

Why keep the Bible exclusively in Latin for centuries, until Martin Luther translated it in German?

Why? Becuase, religion is selling air......it is hocus pocus, selling what you can't see.....

You have to trust me....I know you are suffering now, but if you give me some of your money, I will tell you how to reach salvation.

Oh hogwash !!

DD

[DarkReign]

just wondering. which religions do you agree with?

None. Theyre started, fielded, organized and maintained by humans who by design or cir stance are put into an unelected position of authority in the lives of its followers.

An authority of God, no less. Which means no amount of reason, logic or science can sway the followers on many subjects of public interest.

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

[101A]

What ever happened to free will? Why edit out the books that don't agree with a certain male dominated dogma?

Why not include them and let each individual decide?

Why keep the Bible exclusively in Latin for centuries, until Martin Luther translated it in German?

Why? Becuase, religion is selling air......it is hocus pocus, selling what you can't see.....

You have to trust me....I know you are suffering now, but if you give me some of your money, I will tell you how to reach salvation.

Oh hogwash !!

DD

Ironic that you would use the practices of the Catholic Church to condemn Christians, who probably have a strong distaste for that ins ution. Luther wasn't the first. The Venerable Bede in the 7th century did parts, then John Wykclif in the 14th century did the whole deed. He was killed, burned and his ashes were scattered randomly OUTSIDE of a cemetary as reward for his service.

The Catholic Church thought it heretical for the bible to be read and understood by lay-people (and for good reason; it pretty much refutes everything they were teaching) - in a world where 1/4 - 1/3 of the entire population were dying of plague - having the ability to grant, or remove the ability to enter eternal salvation was pretty powerful stuff. The fact that somehow, with how dangerous they could be, and ultimately were to the power and influence of the Church, that the original, Greek translations of the Bible were not destroyed by the Church, is a miracle.

[Bartleby]

Why? Becuase, religion is selling air......it is hocus pocus

Funny you should use that phrase since it has it roots in people making fun of the Catholic concept of transubstantiation (hoc est corpus).

[TheMadHatter]

The Bible cannot be true as it constantly contradicts itself. Yet it might be an inspiration to good morals and proper conduct. So let us see what the Bible says about goodness, justice, kindness, morality and respect for family, friend and neighbor.

Let us look at some of the sexual morals that are in the Bible. I will begin with Genesis 19. As I read the story, two "angels" are guests in Lot's house when "the men of the city" come to the house and Genesis 19:5-8 reads: "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them. (6) and Lot went out the door unto them and shut the door after him: (7) and said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. (8) Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known men; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes; only unto these men do nothing, for therefore they came under the shadow of my roof."

Naturally, I cannot know what that says to anyone else, but to me it seems to say: "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known men; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes;"

What kind of father would offer his children to a mob to be used as they see fit? I will be honest with you, if you were a guest in my house, I would protect you with all my might, but if it came to the point of it being either you or my children, it would be you. And I would expect the same, if it were your choice between your children or me. If it were God himself, if there is a God, he would go before my children. I am not a Christian. I am very pro- family, my innocent children come first.

But that is not the end of the story, it goes on and gets worse. In Genesis 19:31-32, Lot's daughters are talking: "And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our Father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come unto us after the manner of all the earth: (32) come let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father."

And this seedy story goes on until Genesis 19:36 reads: "Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father."

Now I know that is not what the Bible says to you who believe it to be "the word of God." But to me, it seems to say: "Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father." To me that story is pure filth, but others say there is no filth, and no immorality, in the Bible, so I do not know what that story says to others, but to me it is pure filth. And, to me, filth cannot be a part of "the word of God."

There are many stories in the Christian Bible that I believe are immoral, pure filth. but that one will serve as an example for the rest. After all, we are considering the Bible as "the word of God," we need only one "bad" story, only one contradiction, only one untruth or injustice, to prove the Bible is not "the word of God."

Let us consider God's justice as recorded in the Bible.

King David obtained one of his many wives through kidnap, rape and murder. The story is in the second book of Samuel, chapter 11, and verse 4 reads: "And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him and he lay with her . . ." I hope you will forgive me for repeating such filthy stories, but that is what the Bible says. The story goes on and Bathsheba is pregnant. David has her husband, Uriah, killed and in verse 26 and 27 we read: "And when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband. (27) And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bore him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord."

Good! Now we will have a chance to see God's justice in action. How did God punish David for those most awful crimes? How do you think such a terrible man should be punished? Well, God's punishment for David's crimes can be read in the second book of Samuel, chapter 11: verse 15, it reads: "And the Lord struck the child, that Unah's wife bore unto David, and it was very sick." and verse 18 reads: "And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died." Believe it or not; God's idea of justice for the murder of Bathsheba's husband, was for God himself to murder Bathsheba's innocent baby. That is God's justice according to the Christian Bible.

I don't know what that story says to a believing Christian, but if what I understand the Bible to say, is what it says, it would take a very deprived mind to believe the Bible is "the word of God."

[Extra Stout]

If you have studied it, as you claim, then how in the world can you believe it?

I mean did you study the histories of the stories? The connection between the Jesus mythos and Horus?

The taking of the Winter solstice from pagan rituals and making it Jesus birthday?

How can you support this stuff, if you are as learned as you say you are....
DD

For the Jesus/Horus alleged similarities, check the actual source do ents like the Egyptian Book of the Dead, rather than the specious work by Achayra S. Most of the "similarities" are fabricated.

Please bring up Mithra next.

Many of the Christmas traditions we have carry over from the Roman holiday of Sol Invictus: the tree, garland, holly, exchange of presents, markets, getting all giddy about snow. Christians "adapted" that holiday into Christmas, partially so they could participate, and partially to avoid attention. Nobody knows for sure what day Jesus was born, but it almost certainly was not in December.

In the Catholic and Orthodox churches, there are holy days whose dates were chosen for reasons that have nothing to do with any history. Take for example the Assumption of Mary. The date was chosen to commemorate a Roman victory over the Persians.

How those sorts of things might debunk Christianity is beyond me.

I do not let popular sensationalized "exposes" on the Bible affect me, because I understand that there is money to be made in finding "proof" that Christianity is not true. There are a bunch of people who, though already rationally convinced that Christianity is not true because of the lack of objective evidence, nevertheless buy books filled with pseudoscience and specious arguments in order to buttress their unassailable rational conclusions.

[101A]

The Bible cannot be true as it constantly contradicts itself. Yet it might be an inspiration to good morals and proper conduct. So let us see what the Bible says about goodness, justice, kindness, morality and respect for family, friend and neighbor.

Every example you cite is from the Old-Testament - the Jewish bible. It is part of the Christian bible, but not the part I usually read.

In case you were not aware, you are a bigot.

[Shastafarian]

Every example you cite is from the Old-Testament - the Jewish bible. It is part of the Christian bible, but not the part I usually read.

Huh? This is the part that always made me wonder how christians can just ignore the basis of their religion. I've never really been given an explanation on why the sabbath was changed.

[MannyIsGod]

101,

You mention that your god isn't above punishment which is one of the fundamental flaws with me. I have extreme trouble rationalizing an all knowing omnipotent being need to punish. It just doesn't make sense to me. I don't mean this in a condescending way and I just assume you have a different perspective which allows you to understand things, but I just can't come to terms with how that works.

Its one of many fundamental issues I have. Punishment is an imperfect method of persuasion and I don't understand why an omnipotent being would use an imperfect method.

[101A]

Huh? This is the part that always made me wonder. How can christians just ignore the basis of their religion. I've never really been given an explanation on why the sabbath was changed.

Read may earlier post regarding Old vs. New covenants.

[Findog]

Huh? This is the part that always made me wonder how christians can just ignore the basis of their religion. I've never really been given an explanation on why the sabbath was changed.

Cause teh Jesus is like a service pack upgrade. What's funny is that most "Christians" adhere to Old Testament morality and ignore the moral implications of Jesus' teachings.

[Shastafarian]

Read may earlier post regarding Old vs. New covenants.

is this what you're talking about:

Jesus Christ refers to himself as the "New Covenant". He was born a Jew - and was a practicing one. Almost his ENTIRE message was that the original covenant, or set of instructions, had gotten too complicated,

[Viva Las Espuelas]

None. Theyre started, fielded, organized and maintained by humans who by design or cir stance are put into an unelected position of authority in the lives of its followers.

An authority of God, no less. Which means no amount of reason, logic or science can sway the followers on many subjects of public interest.

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

that's cool. you said "most" and that's what made me ask. i'm pretty much in your same train of thought. i'm not for religion(catholicism, baptist, episcopalian, etc).