Your Vote, Your Reasons

[ratm1221]

I don't know that I came up with it out of nothing. I took a philosophy of science class and the professor was discussing how some (maybe all?) physicists have posited that physics is the basis for all of the other sciences and how according to them, at some point we should be able to use physics to predict the outcome of any science experiment.

, it was over my head (I was a philosophy major, not a physics or any other science major), but I started to wonder about the implications on my life and society if this was true.

Ultimately, I decided that not much would change. We could still find reasons to punish people for crime, even though there was no choice involved during the commission of crime. There could still be societal consequences for people's actions.

In our own lives, we would still have the illusion of choice and that would be enough to sustain us from day to day. If I felt like I wanted a hamburger, it wouldn't necessarily matter to me whether my craving was based on the actions of some subatomic particles or whether it was my independent mind craving a hamburger. The fact would be that I would want a hamburger and would eat one.

Obviously there was more to it, but that's just a short summary of the process.

Interesting, thanks.

[Drachen]

Yeah, but given the odds, being a Christian is really a minority belief. Best not to pick one in particular, I find.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here, but those who claim to be Christians outnumber the other religions. Catholicism alone makes up 1.1 B people. Interestingly enough Atheism/Agnosticism is the 3rd largest "religion" in the world behind Christianity and Islam.

[Drachen]

ok, well I am being told by my smarter half that it is time to go to bed, so I will continue this tomorrow, enjoy!

[Tully365]

Uhm... making everyone in Times Square float, making a dinosaur appear, changing every building to look at a mushroom, make everyone start speaking in a totally unknown language that they all fully understood, warp through space/time... some of these would suffice. I'm not too picky after all.

Though, to be fair, given these examples, it seems that miracles are very much tied to certain time periods, right? In the year 500 BC, the empire state building, a cell phone, a 757, and Golden Gate Bridge would all astound people as miracles, wouldn't they?

[LnGrrrR]

Just quiet mental notes, mostly. Although I pray aloud also at times.


Some prayers are more formal. For example, at meals, my family will hold hands and pray.
But most often I pray while driving, doing chores, exercising- just as I carry on all other conversations while in the midst of going about daily life.


I don't audibly hear a voice back but do sense Jesus guide me through the Bible, through words of others, through opportunities that become available to me etc.

Thanks for answering! I sometimes 'wish' to no one in particular for something to happen, but I just consider it supers ious hopes of my own. I'm not completely rational; I'll readily cop to that. Most sports fans will.

When I was younger, I used to actually "pray", but I wouldn't say God. I'd just ask whoever was listening to help me out.

[Trainwreck2100]

You know, I never get this. Why would the non-existence of God mean it was ok to just start doing whatever you want? Do the liberties/rights of other people not matter?

And if God DOES exist, what type of signal are these people sending that they're only moral due to his existence, and not to some inner morality/reasoning/beliefs?

If God don't exist then Dawinism takes over. Less people on Earth, more resources for me.

I'd steal from Wal Mart to, Wal Mart, they want you to steal from them, why else would they be so understaffed.

[Mr. Peabody]

I have no idea what that proof would look like.

All I can say is that it would have to lead me to believe that Jesus Christ is real beyond any reasonable doubt.

Sometimes DNA evidence doesn't even get you there. Just ask O.J.!

[LnGrrrR]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here, but those who claim to be Christians outnumber the other religions. Catholicism alone makes up 1.1 B people. Interestingly enough Atheism/Agnosticism is the 3rd largest "religion" in the world behind Christianity and Islam.

Yes, but if you take EVERY belief, then Christianity is less of a percentage. (Ie. if Christianity is the most believed religion at 36 percent, then there are still 64 percent of people that don't believe in it.)

[Mr. Peabody]

If God don't exist then Dawinism takes over. Less people on Earth, more resources for me.

I'd steal from Wal Mart to, Wal Mart, they want you to steal from them, why else would they be so understaffed.

So, it's God that keeps you from stealing at WalMart? I would think the fact that you could get caught and if caught, would get arrested for stealing at WalMart might also be a deterrent.

[LnGrrrR]

Though, to be fair, given these examples, it seems that miracles are very much tied to certain time periods, right? In the year 500 BC, the empire state building, a cell phone, a 757, and Golden Gate Bridge would all astound people as miracles, wouldn't they?

Pretty much. So I guess you could sum it up as, if someone was able to traverse/bend/warp spacetime, without having any sort of obvious means/technology to do so, and claimed to be Jesus/son of God (without anyone else showing up to do the same thing).... yes. I'd probably believe then.

Edit: Though if they couldn't turn those buildings into mushrooms, I'd totally know it was a fake.

[Tully365]

Pretty much. So I guess you could sum it up as, if someone was able to traverse/bend/warp spacetime, without having any sort of obvious means/technology to do so, and claimed to be Jesus/son of God (without anyone else showing up to do the same thing).... yes. I'd probably believe then.

Edit: Though if they couldn't turn those buildings into mushrooms, I'd totally know it was a fake.

What if it is a completely different god, on a higher plane than Jesus, who just for the fun of it, performs "miracles" for naive earthlings and holds in his own giggles while telling you that he is (hee hee hee) Jesus, and around the celestial corner all of his immortal pals are laughing hysterically because Booboo or Bubbles or whatever his name is just pulled the old "goof on an earthling gag" for the millionth time?

[timvp]

Really? Have you no understanding of your own mind?

That might have overtaken CF for best line in the thread.

Thanks for trying. You got a lot further than I did ... even though we asked the same question. Maybe he'll come back and at least try to answer it but I won't hold my breath.

[Trainwreck2100]

So, it's God that keeps you from stealing at WalMart? I would think the fact that you could get caught and if caught, would get arrested for stealing at WalMart might also be a deterrent.

Do you have any idea how easy it is to steal from Wal Mart?They greatest detterent is the worker and they understaff. The stores have blind spots on the cameras, and if you can't find one just head into the McD's or bathroom. Open package deposit contents in cargo pants and walk away.

[TheMadHatter]

Do you have any idea how easy it is to steal from Wal Mart?They greatest detterent is the worker and they understaff. The stores have blind spots on the cameras, and if you can't find one just head into the McD's or bathroom. Open package deposit contents in cargo pants and walk away.

you wouldn't happen to have 1st hand experience with this now would you?

[Trainwreck2100]

you wouldn't happen to have 1st hand experience with this now would you?

I know people,

in morals

[LnGrrrR]

What if it is a completely different god, on a higher plane than Jesus, who just for the fun of it, performs "miracles" for naive earthlings and holds in his own giggles while telling you that he is (hee hee hee) Jesus, and around the celestial corner all of his immortal pals are laughing hysterically because Booboo or Bubbles or whatever his name is just pulled the old "goof on an earthling gag" for the millionth time?

Uhm... good for him? I mean, if I had that power, I'd probably do the same thing.

[Mr. Peabody]

What if it is a completely different god, on a higher plane than Jesus, who just for the fun of it, performs "miracles" for naive earthlings and holds in his own giggles while telling you that he is (hee hee hee) Jesus, and around the celestial corner all of his immortal pals are laughing hysterically because Booboo or Bubbles or whatever his name is just pulled the old "goof on an earthing gag" for the millionth time?

Wow. I suppose if we go that far, we could just go Cartesian and suppose that there is an evil god who is deceiving us about everything. Therefore, can we really know anything?

[LnGrrrR]

Wow. I suppose if we go that far, we could just go Cartesian and suppose that there is an evil god who is deceiving us about everything. Therefore, can we really know anything?

Cogito ergo sum. That's really all, I suppose.

[Tully365]

Uhm... good for him? I mean, if I had that power, I'd probably do the same thing.

True. At that point, you've seen and done everything. Might as well raise some harmless , so to speak.

[TheMadHatter]

Wow. I suppose if we go that far, we could just go Cartesian and suppose that there is an evil god who is deceiving us about everything. Therefore, can we really know anything?

Read 1984 by George Orwell. Particularly the last segment of the book. It was perhaps the most thrilling intellectual text I've ever read in my life. Mind would be the best way of describing it.

[ElNono]

You know, I never get this. Why would the non-existence of God mean it was ok to just start doing whatever you want? Do the liberties/rights of other people not matter?

And if God DOES exist, what type of signal are these people sending that they're only moral due to his existence, and not to some inner morality/reasoning/beliefs?

Well, I don't think everybody would react the same way, so I frankly prefer not to generalize. For example, I think a girl like angel would go in denial mode, other people would go into severe depression/suicide, other people would claim at that point that 'they already knew', but it's the moral message what was important anyways and they'll still cling to it, and some other people would go back to barbaric ways.

Now, as far as why would go postal, one theory would be that they no longer need to fear a powerful god that will punish them for their sins. I would have to give this more thought to think of other theories.

[Tully365]

Wow. I suppose if we go that far, we could just go Cartesian and suppose that there is an evil god who is deceiving us about everything. Therefore, can we really know anything?

Yeah, but to look at it somewhat seriously, even our wackiest, most creative scenarios are nothing compared to an infinity of time and space-- there are possibilities that exist that even the most brilliant minds haven't considered yet. Imagine that person from 500 BC being amazed by a 757 flying over the Empire State Building and think what it would take for us to feel that same sort of disbelief and astonishment.... whatever that is will someday come into existence. I don't know what that'll be, but it'll be pretty amazing to ordinary folks from the year 2008.

[Trainwreck2100]

Now, as far as why would go postal, one theory would be that they no longer need to fear a powerful god that will punish them for their sins. I would have to give this more thought to think of other theories.

1 word.........................rapeparty

[Tully365]

Cogito ergo sum. That's really all, I suppose.

Dude, that would be a great name for our band!

[Mr. Peabody]

Yeah, but to look at it somewhat seriously, even our wackiest, most creative scenarios are nothing compared to an infinity of time and space-- there are possibilities that exist that even the most brilliant minds haven't considered yet. Imagine that person from 500 BC being amazed by a 757 flying over the Empire State Building and think what it would take for us to feel that same sort of disbelief and astonishment.... whatever that is will someday come into existence. I don't know what that'll be, but it'll be pretty amazing to ordinary folks from the year 2008.

So, then essentially you're saying that there can't possibly be any evidence of Jesus that would convince the non-believer, right? Because today's miracle is tomorrow's science.

But, if that's the case and there is no evidence possible, how can we dismiss the notion for lack of evidence?