KB24.com: Kobe vs Jordan

[ShoogarBear]

There was a brief, shiny moment that Darryl Dawkins was the best player in the NBA.

Say what? When was this? Dawkins never came remotely close to making an All-Star or All-NBA team.

[ambchang]

I did address this, I said Jordan was not as skilled in shooting 3s as Kobe, he was more comfortable in the mid-range. Jordan did not have as much range as Kobe. Jordan's range was about 18 foot, Kobe's range is about 25 feet.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=158

No you didn't, you first brought up a made-up fact that all-time leaders in 3 pt shooting “made their mark during Jordan’s era”, and when I refuted with the fact that they actually most made their mark during Kobe’s era, it was never addressed.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=159

Besides, your “skill” argument was shattered when it was shown that Jordan’s 3pt% during his prime was practically the same as Kobe’s (Jordan’s being slightly better), the only thing was that Kobe shot more, which was since shown that it was due to different eras, when 3pters are used much more as a weapon as in the past.

As far as I know, this was never brought up.

I did say that scoring was less in the 90's as opposed to the scoring in the 00's. The league has transitioned to a more up tempo game.

Of course you never said “Kobe scored less in an era of increased scoring than Jordan did in an era of low scoring, therefore Kobe is just as skilled as Jordan.”, but you said:

Yes 3 point shooting has increased dramatically but scoring in general has increased dramatically since the 90s.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=160


To which I responded:

So Kobe can’t even score more than Jordan even though Kobe was scoring in an era that has dramatically more scoring than Jordan’s? How would this help your case with Kobe having the same impact as Jordan?

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=202

So Jordan scored more than Kobe (fact) in an era where there was less scoring than Kobe’s era, and yet Kobe was just as skilled as Jordan in all aspects, and more so in 3pt shooting? (Not to mention the fact that increased 3pt attempts should allow Kobe to inflate his scoring even more). How do you figure?

[ambchang]

Yes, all of the individual honors helps his GOAT status, the rings are at the top of the list

Why would the rings be at the top of the rings? If Kobe got one more ring than Jordan, why would it make him more accomplished than Jordan despite the fact that he has worse stats, less MVPs, less Finals MVP, less DPoY, less RoY, less 1st team all-nba, less 1st team all-d, less scoring les, less steals les?

Oh yes, it was because Kobe had Shaq instead of Pippen, helping him win 3 rings, that’s why.

So when comparing Jordan to Kobe, the #s of rings are important; but we don’t talk about total rings, we talk about # of rings at their respective age, not at the respective points in their careers. But when we talk about other players, it is important to have MVPs, but the # of MVPs doesn’t matter, it only matters that a player has one.

In other words, a player has to have exactly the same accomplishments as Kobe to be considered the most accomplished player in the NBA at the age of 29.

Kobe probably will not match up in awards but in rings, he might.

For all I care, Kirk Hinrich might find his inner potential and start to win 8 straight MVPs. It’s not probale that he will match Jordan’s accomplishments, but he might.

And you are talking 3 MORE rings, you know how many FRANCHISES in NBA history has 3 or more rings? Celtics, Lakers, Bulls, Spurs and Pistons. That is it.

At the same age, Jordan had 2 MVPs, 1 more than Kobe. However, Kobe has 3 rings compared to Jordan's 2 at the time. I believe that's pretty close.

I also believe that Shaq was the driving force behind “Kobe’s” 3 rings. Writing Kobe’s 3 rings down as the same level of accomplishment as any of Jordan’s rings is absolutely illogical. But then again, you felt that the 6 Bulls ring reflects the same level of accomplishment for Pippen as for Jordan.

Who knows who was great in the other 12, it varies depending on series. The Finals MVP is performance based solely on the Finals.

Anybody who watched those games did. And those who watched the 6 Bulls run knows that Jordan was the leader, while those who watched the Lakers 3-peat knew that Shaq was the leader. That was why Shaq won an MVP during those 3-peat, and Kobe didn’t.

You yourself said Kobe hasn't won anything since Shaq left. Look at Kobe's crappy team which was 100x crappier than Dirk's. You penalized Kobe easily but for your argument, you want to give Dirk a free pass.

So you think I said Dirk should be compared to Jordan? You think I have been using the # of rings to gauge a player’s greatness? Note the Garnett to Barkley and Malone comparisons?

Rings have ALWAYS been a team accomplishment. Some players need more support than others, and that makes them less great. I would never say Andrew Toney, James Worthy and Chauncey Billups are just as great as Wilt Chamberlain because they all have 1 MVP, or the 3 are greater than David Robinson because Robinson never won a ring.

A player is judged as how great he is based on his whole body of work, not by how closely they match the accomplishments of Kobe Bryant.

Nope, I didn't agree, just felt like laughing arbitrarily like you. I think by the time KG is done, he'll be mentioned along with Barkley and Malone right behind Duncan. If you think about it, Duncan is already the best power forward of all time and he's compared with Duncan all the time. If KG's compared to the best, why couldn't he compare with the other runner-ups?

KG was compared to Duncan? Why would that happen? Duncan’s got 4 rings, KG’s only got one at a later age than Duncan got his? Both have MVPs. With your arbitrary and moving standards, KG shouldn’t be compared to Duncan.

[Allanon]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=158

No you didn't, you first brought up a made-up fact that all-time leaders in 3 pt shooting “made their mark during Jordan’s era”, and when I refuted with the fact that they actually most made their mark during Kobe’s era, it was never addressed.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=159

What are you talking about? it's right here, read it yourself. Even Obstructed View responded to it saying I should have my Laker fandom removed:
"Jordan just didn't have the skill."
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=160

Besides, your “skill” argument was shattered when it was shown that Jordan’s 3pt% during his prime was practically the same as Kobe’s (Jordan’s being slightly better), the only thing was that Kobe shot more, which was since shown that it was due to different eras, when 3pters are used much more as a weapon as in the past.

Nope, Jordan didn't improve his 3 point shooter until later on in his career. At Kobe's age, Jordan was a 30% 3 point shooter, he got better in the later years. Kobe right now is a 34% 3 point shooter on the upward swing as well. It's quite obvious that Kobe has a superior 3pt shot and even sustains a higher percentage even though he shot a ton more.

Jordan didn't shoot 3's because he was shooting a bad percentage at Kobe's age. A 30% 3 point shooter is pretty bad. Kobe shoots 3's because he can, Jordan didn't because of his bad percentage.

Have a look at his 3 point shooting #'s in his first 4 years:
Jordan %'s: 17%, 17%, 18%, 13%

Of course you never said “Kobe scored less in an era of increased scoring than Jordan did in an era of low scoring, therefore Kobe is just as skilled as Jordan.”

Then don't put words into my mouth.

So Jordan scored more than Kobe (fact) in an era where there was less scoring than Kobe’s era, and yet Kobe was just as skilled as Jordan in all aspects, and more so in 3pt shooting? (Not to mention the fact that increased 3pt attempts should allow Kobe to inflate his scoring even more). How do you figure?

This is actually quite simple to explain, there are tons of reasons.

• Jordan was a physical freak of that era...he was much bigger than shooting guards of that era (fact). Whereas Kobe's now the average size or under-sized for a shooting guard.
• He set the standard on how to guard a talented shooting guard.
• The NBA was "watered down" during Jordan's time. While Kobe plays in an elite West.
• Look at the draft from 1988 to 1995 (Jordan's era). It's quite pathetic with only a few notables. Kobe's had to contend with the Greatest PF, Greatest SF, Greatest Center.
• Coaches were not able to use the zone to guard Jordan while the NBA uses the Box and 1 on Kobe, Kobe gets the box and everybody else gets the one.
• Kobe plays in the toughest conference of all time (50+ wins to make the playoffs)

There's a ton more if you want.

[Allanon]

Why would the rings be at the top of the rings? If Kobe got one more ring than Jordan, why would it make him more accomplished than Jordan despite the fact that he has worse stats, less MVPs, less Finals MVP, less DPoY, less RoY, less 1st team all-nba, less 1st team all-d, less scoring les, less steals les?

Kobe has done 81, gotten scoring les and an MVP, All NBA's

BUT...read the posts from your fellow Spur fans and yourself. One even posted "Kobe hasn't done since Shaq". So an MVP and scoring les mean nothing or do they? Why are you trying to use the same argument for and against? It doesn't work that way, that's called a "double-standard"

Winning is everything.

Oh yes, it was because Kobe had Shaq instead of Pippen, helping him win 3 rings, that’s why.

Oh yes, it's because Jordan had Pippen, a top50 Player, Rodman, the best rebounder ever and Steve Kerr, the best 3 point shooter ever (arguably with Bird).

So when comparing Jordan to Kobe, the #s of rings are important; but we don’t talk about total rings, we talk about # of rings at their respective age, not at the respective points in their careers. But when we talk about other players, it is important to have MVPs, but the # of MVPs doesn’t matter, it only matters that a player has one.

Sure, the # of MVPs matters, I was just making it easy for you to come up with one but you haven't. At least 1 MVP, at least 3 rings...at the age of 30. Come up with just 1 in the NBA's 50+ year history and then they can join the Kobe / Jordan talk.

For all I care, Kirk Hinrich might find his inner potential and start to win 8 straight MVPs. It’s not probale that he will match Jordan’s accomplishments, but he might.

Sure he can, he'd have to start this year since he's 27.

And you are talking 3 MORE rings, you know how many FRANCHISES in NBA history has 3 or more rings? Celtics, Lakers, Bulls, Spurs and Pistons. That is it.

Kobe plays for the Lakers...the same team that has been to the Finals 50%+ of all NBA finals ever played.

I also believe that Shaq was the driving force behind “Kobe’s” 3 rings. Writing Kobe’s 3 rings down as the same level of accomplishment as any of Jordan’s rings is absolutely illogical. But then again, you felt that the 6 Bulls ring reflects the same level of accomplishment for Pippen as for Jordan.

Anybody who watched those games did. And those who watched the 6 Bulls run knows that Jordan was the leader, while those who watched the Lakers 3-peat knew that Shaq was the leader. That was why Shaq won an MVP during those 3-peat, and Kobe didn’t.

I don't think you actually watched the Lakers. Kobe was THE MAN for the Lakers during 4th quarters for the last decade. Shaq was on the bench alot during the Final minutes of the 4th quarter because of the Hack-A-Shaq liability. You couldn't give him the ball on game-winners because he couldn't make his free throws.

As much as Kobe needed Shaq in 3 quarters, Shaq needed Kobe during the 4th.

You saw that last year with Pop's famous "cowardly move", you should know nothing's changed.

So you think I said Dirk should be compared to Jordan? You think I have been using the # of rings to gauge a player’s greatness? Note the Garnett to Barkley and Malone comparisons?

Yup, Garnett will be on the same level as Barkley and Malone, 1 notch below Duncan, after it's all said and done.

Rings have ALWAYS been a team accomplishment.

I thought you said Jordan won the rings by himself, he didn't need any help...I don't recall did you say that?

Some players need more support than others, and that makes them less great. I would never say Andrew Toney, James Worthy and Chauncey Billups are just as great as Wilt Chamberlain because they all have 1 MVP, or the 3 are greater than David Robinson because Robinson never won a ring.

A player is judged as how great he is based on his whole body of work, not by how closely they match the accomplishments of Kobe Bryant.

Is that opinion I hear? You're free to have your opinions, but it doesn't make my opinion wrong.

KG was compared to Duncan? Why would that happen? Duncan’s got 4 rings, KG’s only got one at a later age than Duncan got his? Both have MVPs. With your arbitrary and moving standards, KG shouldn’t be compared to Duncan.

Don't take my word for it.

Read what your own Spur fans posted, yesterday they're comparing the two right there:

Garnett's D on Duncan
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107933

[ambchang]

What are you talking about? it's right here, read it yourself. Even Obstructed View responded to it saying I should have my Laker fandom removed:
"Jordan just didn't have the skill."
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=160

Your response was proven false. Those 3 pt shooters shot and made most of their 3 pointers from 96 onwards, meaning that those were done at the end of Jordan’s era, and the beginning of Kobe’s.

Kobe wasn’t more skilled than Jordan in 3pt shooting, they shot the same % during their primes.

Nope, Jordan didn't improve his 3 point shooter until later on in his career. At Kobe's age, Jordan was a 30% 3 point shooter, he got better in the later years. Kobe right now is a 34% 3 point shooter on the upward swing as well. It's quite obvious that Kobe has a superior 3pt shot and even sustains a higher percentage even though he shot a ton more.

Jordan didn't shoot 3's because he was shooting a bad percentage at Kobe's age. A 30% 3 point shooter is pretty bad. Kobe shoots 3's because he can, Jordan didn't because of his bad percentage.

Have a look at his 3 point shooting #'s in his first 4 years:
Jordan %'s: 17%, 17%, 18%, 13%

Stop coming up with fake “facts”. Jordan shot 35% from the 3 when he was 29 y.o. He shot a low percentage from 3 his 1st four seasons because the 3 was a specialty shot in those days. It has been proven time and time again.

And a 30% 3 pt shooter is not “pretty bad”, especially when you are actually a 32.7% 3 pt shooter.

Kobe shot 26.7% in his 3rd season, and 25% in his 6th, did he suddenly become “less skilled” in those years?

Then don't put words into my mouth.

This is actually quite simple to explain, there are tons of reasons.

• Jordan was a physical freak of that era...he was much bigger than shooting guards of that era (fact). Whereas Kobe's now the average size or under-sized for a shooting guard.
• He set the standard on how to guard a talented shooting guard.

• http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2007.html
  The average player is shorter now than they were 20 years ago, and weigh about 6 lbs more.
  
  

• The NBA was "watered down" during Jordan's time. While Kobe plays in an elite West.

[dbreiden83080]

^^

LOL yeah KG and Duncan is not really a comparison more of a mocking of KG

[Allanon]

^^

LOL yeah KG and Duncan is not really a comparison more of a mocking of KG

Nope, it looks pretty serious to me if you read the thread by Spur fans.

Head to head matchups, stats, etc, that looks like a pretty good comparison going on there. Of course, there are homers that won't give KG any kind of credit.

[lefty]

Someone please close this thread.

Kobe should be happy to suck Jordan's .

Especially after tasting Shaq's ass.

[diego]

I still dont understand why people are comparing kobe to jordan.

as far as 3-peats go,
its jordan= shaq
pippen = kobe,

with the overall ranking going

jordan > shaq > kobe > pippen. That barely gets kobe into the top 10 discussion, and nowhere near the number 1 spot. Could he be there in 10 years? Could Mccain win this election? Can the grizzlies win a ship in the next 5 years? all of this is possible, but improbable. People just dont like players that quit on their team and rat out their teammates, no matter how many points they scored in a regular season game against an expansion team no one cares about.

[Allanon]

Your response was proven false. Those 3 pt shooters shot and made most of their 3 pointers from 96 onwards, meaning that those were done at the end of Jordan’s era, and the beginning of Kobe’s.

Nope, there was less scoring back then. Not only were 3 point shots down, regular 2 point field goals were down too.

Kobe wasn’t more skilled than Jordan in 3pt shooting, they shot the same % during their primes.

At age 30, Kobe has a 34% 3pt shooting percent. Jordan at age 30 had a 30% field go shooting percentage. 34%>30%, and that is a vast margin when you compare what a difference in points it made.

Jordan didn't shoot 3's because he was shooting a bad percentage at Kobe's age. A 30% 3 point shooter is pretty bad. Kobe shoots 3's because he can, Jordan didn't because of his bad percentage.

Have a look at his 3 point shooting #'s in his first 4 years:
Jordan %'s: 17%, 17%, 18%, 13%

Stop coming up with fake “facts”. Jordan shot 35% from the 3 when he was 29 y.o. He shot a low percentage from 3 his 1st four seasons because the 3 was a specialty shot in those days. It has been proven time and time again.

Today, Kobe is 30. Jordan's 3pt% average at age 30 was 30%. Kobe's average at age 30 is 34%. 30% is quite poor compared to 3

And a 30% 3 pt shooter is not “pretty bad”, especially when you are actually a 32.7% 3 pt shooter.

Are there ANY good 3 point shooters at 30%? Stop making up excuses for Jordan's poor 3 point shooting.

Kobe shot 26.7% in his 3rd season, and 25% in his 6th, did he suddenly become “less skilled” in those years?

You take the good and the bad when it comes to averages. Look at Jordan's 17% in his early years. The fact of the matter is, even though Kobe took a TON more shots than Jordan, his shooting percentage on 3s is MUCH higher than Jordan's at the same age.


http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2007.html
The average player is shorter now than they were 20 years ago, and weigh about 6 lbs more.[/quote]

Nope, that is OVERALL average height, not just at the shooting guard position. Centers were bigger back then than they are now. Jordan played against much smaller shooting guards.

Are you nuts?

Are you?

The league has watered down the talent level through expansion, and brought in extra help from overseas, the effect pretty much cancelled each other out.

Cite specific examples. Cite the talent in All-Star teams.

You forget, 95 was an expansion year for the Grizzlies.
Extra top tier talented players from overseas: Manu, Dirk, Yao

Looking at the drafts in Jordan's years, who do we have going to the Top 50 list? By the mid 90's Jordan had no compe ion.

Shaq in 92 but he's also in Kobe's era. Off the top of my head, in Kobe's era we have AI, Duncan, LeBron, KG, and I'm sure there are plenty more I forgot.

Why just the draft 1988 to 1995? Why not include Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, Barkley, Magic, Bird, Thomas, Drexler, Stockton?

Those were the years when Jordan started to "get it and start winning".

Shaq was pathetic? Mourning? Webber? Grant Hill? Larry Johnson? Danny Manning?

Only Shaq on that list. Kobe has to deal with AI, Duncan, LeBron, KG

I am sure Kwame Brown and Michael Olowokandi, along with Kenyon Martin are shining examples of what #1 draft picks could be.

Yup, just like Pervis Ellison, Derrick Coleman, Glenn Robinson, Joe Smith.

Jordan had the Jordan rules, he had hand checks, flagrant fouls on him. Kobe didn’t have to contend with any of that.

And Jordan didn't have the zone to bust him up.

That happened ONE year of his career, and you make it sound like it happens all the time.

Wow! Huge difference!

Yes, thankyou it is. The West has been much more difficult than the east for almost a decade now.

Besides, what does the parity of the league have anything to do with how many points Jordan vs. Kobe scores?

It's easier to score against lesser compe ion.

81 points vs. Raptors is such an important accomplishment? Jordan scored 63 vs. the Celtics in the playoffs, he average 40 points in the finals vs. Barkley and Suns. These are notable accomplishments.

Yup, as good as Jordan was, he could never hit 81.

And you were talking about how insignificant the Finals MVP is because it only represent 4 games of the year, yet now you are talking about 1 pointless regular season game?

Everybody will always remember 100 and 81 until they get surpassed. I can't even remember the Finals MVP from 2006.

Jordan’s got 10 scoring les, Kobe got 2. Jordan won 5 MVPs, Kobe got 1. You see the difference?

Yes, I see the difference, past tense versus present tense (ie. pitting 1 players lifetime achievement vs another player who's not done with his career).

I am now lumped with other fans? Please distinguish between who you are arguing with. Just because me and my “fellow Spur fans” support the same team doesn’t mean that we think alike.

So you never said "Kobe hasn't done anything since Shaq"?

Double standard doesn’t mean two different people having two different arguments. That is actually normal. An example of double standard would be having a linear progression in importance for rings, while having a Boolean function for MVPs and scoring les.

Nope, "double standard" means holding Kobe to 1 standard and giving Jordan a free pass on the same standard.

You are putting in Steve Kerr? Are you serious? Steve Kerr?

Yup, Steve Kerr was a bad-ass 3 point shooter, even the Spurs thought so and brought him in.

Since you are so fond of 3pt shooting “skills” and having selective years of a player’s career (such as the 1st 4 years) instead of viewing it as a whole, Steve Kerr actually shot 23.1% during the 92-93 season. If 30% quantifies as terrible, I don’t know what that quantifies as. He shot a close to terrible 31.3% in 98-99 too. Oh my GOSH!

By age 30,
Kerr 46% 3 pointers
Kobe 34% 3 pointers
Jordan 30% 3 pointers

Oh my GOSH!

Besides, Jordan won 3 straight without Kerr.

Jordan won 3 straight with Kerr.

Rodman was an offensive liability. And Jordan won 3 straight with Horace Grant instead of Rodman.

Rodman was a rebounding beast and the most athletic player Phil ever coached. And Jordan won 3 straight with Rodman instead of Horace Grant.

While at the same time, Kobe needed a top 15 player of all-time Shaq, one of the best coaches of all-time in Phil Jackson. 3 pt shooting extraordinaire Derek Fisher, one of the clutchest player in the history of the league Robert Horry, and defensive swing man Ron Harper to win the ring.

I'll give you Shaq over Luc Longley.
Fisher < Kerr
Horry < Rodman
Harper < Pippen.

But why are we even talking about teammates? It doesn’t matter does it, a ring is a ring, winning is everything. Horry is better than Paul Pierce, he has 7x the rings, and neither won the MVP. Same could be said that Horry > Kevin McHale, Horry has 7, McHale only has 3, neither has an MVP.

We're not talking about the non-MVPs, we're talking about MVPs. What's wrong? Couldn't find another player <30 with 3 rings and at least 1 MVP to compare with Jordan?

Why? Why those cut offs? Oh, because it’s exactly what Kobe has, ic….

Sorry, last time I checked, Kobe's 30 years old, I can't change that and we are talking about Kobe vs Jordan.

I define the greatest player of all time to have at least 7 rings, and has the most 3 pters in the NBA finals. That would be Robert Horry! Find me another player who has the same accomplishments.

Hey, whatever rocks your boat, you have your opinion. I'm not gonna dispute it as right or wrong.

So? If they have the exact same team (including management) in Memphis, would it make the probability of them winning a ring less? What does playing on a franchise that has won more than 3 rings in its history have any relevance on their probability to win a ring in the near future?

Probability is the same but the odds are good that the Lakers are going to win in the future. Even Vegas agrees, have a look at their odds.

Explains why Shaq won the MVP and Finals MVPs while Kobe didn’t. It’s nice that Kobe can shoot FTs during the last 2 minutes of a tight game, cool, but Shaq helps make sure that most of those aren’t even tight games. Horry shot clutch shots, does that make him the man on his teams?

Shaq carries the team for 3 quarters, Kobe carries it for 1. That's always been the case. Shaq would not have won without Kobe's 4 quarter heroics. Kobe would not have won without Shaq's 3 quarter performances. Shaq was the more dominant player but his major kryptonite was 4th quarters.

Besides, I remember Shaq being on the floor during 0.4, during Horry’s dagger to the Kings, during the huge run against Portland.

Do you ever remember Shaq getting the ball in those instances? Nope. The rules say you can't foul Shaq in the last 2 minutes unless he has the ball. That's why the Lakers didn't give him the ball.

Find me the numbers to back up your claim instead of just throwing out random unconfirmed “facts”.

I'll do better than that, I'll SHOW you. Now you go find me some clutch Shaq Game winners

[youtube]J2yzNQWFYko[/quote]

The Lakers were in their 3-peat last year? Have you been in a coma for the last 6 years?

I distinctly remember Pop doing Hack-a-Shaq since Shaq's the same 4th quarter liability as he's always been. But, maybe I remember last year's Spurs vs Suns series wrong.

By your be-all-and-end-all scorecard, no doubt.

Or your end of career vs current career. Either one would be just as good.

Quote me. If you can’t, look it up first before you type this out. It’s in the same thread, it’s not that hard. You have a habit of spewing up incorrect “facts” with nothing to back up.

Oh no, you never said that. I was just having you confirm it in a round about way since you wouldn't admit it straight out. Jordan didn't win those les by himself, he needed Pippen. Thankyou.

Count the number of “I thinks”/”I thoughts” in your own post.

Yup, unlike you, I don't think I know it all. It's my opinion so I say I think as opposed to your absolutes.

You are comparing Kobe with Jordan as well. Doesn’t make them equal.

Kobe and Jordan are not equal, I've said that before.

Besides, these quotes really show that Garnett and Duncan are comparable:

I guess you CAN call that a comparison, using whatever wacky criteria you came up on the spot.

There's no cure for homerism. If you look through the same post, you see some more valid analysis from less biased Spur fans.

[The Franchise]

Why was this stupid ass thread even started. Their is no comparison other than for kids who were to young to see Jordan play or fools who are just to stubborn to except reality. Fact: Jordan was better. Any argument against this is just blind stupidity. There is no middle ground.

[Allanon]

Just to set the record straight for late visitors to this thread:

I'm not arguing that Kobe is better than Jordan.

Jordan's the GOAT.

[Obstructed_View]

What are you talking about? it's right here, read it yourself. Even Obstructed View responded to it saying I should have my Laker fandom removed:
"Jordan just didn't have the skill."

Actually, I made a mistake. I thought Jordan broke the record for three pointers in a finals game against the Lakers. He did it against the Blazers. I retract my "laker fandom" statement with an apology, but my belief that you are a re for saying Jordan didn't have three point skill when he damn near set the record for threes in the NBA finals in a half is still intact.

[Reggie Miller]

Say what? When was this? Dawkins never came remotely close to making an All-Star or All-NBA team.

You caught me in hyperbole. The point was he'll be remembered for breaking backboards, which really doesn't have much to do with basketball skill one way or the other.

[ambchang]

Nope, there was less scoring back then. Not only were 3 point shots down, regular 2 point field goals were down too.

Year PPG/Team 3PA/Team
91 106.3 7.1
92 105.3 7.6
96 99.5 16.0
01 94.8 13.7
04 93.4 14.9
08 99.9 18.1

So not only did 3pters increased by 250%, scoring DECREASED from Jordan’s era, showing, irrefutably, that 3pters are a larger part of today’s offense. But of course, most people who actually watched the game back in the early 90s didn’t need numbers to back it up.

Any other bull you want to spew?

At age 30, Kobe has a 34% 3pt shooting percent. Jordan at age 30 had a 30% field go shooting percentage. 34%>30%, and that is a vast margin when you compare what a difference in points it made.

So you are OK with saying that Kobe is a terrible scorer compared to Jordan at age 30? Kobe averages 25.0 ppg at age 30, Jordan averaged 33.3 ppg. 33.3 > 25.0, and infact, 29% better, and that is a vast margin.

BTW, Kobe averages 3.7 3pt a game, if he shot 30% instead of 34% from 3, he will score a WHOPPING 0.44 points less a game.

Jordan averaged 1.7 3pter a game, and if he shot 34% instead of 30% from 3, he will score an amazing 0.20 points a game. That really is a “vast margin” when I compared the differences, huh?

Jordan didn't shoot 3's because he was shooting a bad percentage at Kobe's age. A 30% 3 point shooter is pretty bad. Kobe shoots 3's because he can, Jordan didn't because of his bad percentage.

Have a look at his 3 point shooting #'s in his first 4 years:
Jordan %'s: 17%, 17%, 18%, 13%



Today, Kobe is 30. Jordan's 3pt% average at age 30 was 30%. Kobe's average at age 30 is 34%. 30% is quite poor compared to 3



Are there ANY good 3 point shooters at 30%? Stop making up excuses for Jordan's poor 3 point shooting.

LOL, so you are expecting Kobe to improve his 3 pt shooting when his career goes on, despite:
- At age 29, he already has 12 years in the league, compared to 9 for Jordan
- 3 pters experienced a huge increase in importance to all the teams during Jordan’s career.

OK, fine, remember this when you compare scoring averages, rebounding, assists, steals, blks and FG% between the two.

You take the good and the bad when it comes to averages. Look at Jordan's 17% in his early years. The fact of the matter is, even though Kobe took a TON more shots than Jordan, his shooting percentage on 3s is MUCH higher than Jordan's at the same age.

He shot more, so? Shot selection. Jordan wasn’t a good 3pt shooter when he entered the league, and he took less shots, he became a proficient 3 pt shooter later on in his career. Is there a problem?

Nope, that is OVERALL average height, not just at the shooting guard position. Centers were bigger back then than they are now. Jordan played against much smaller shooting guards.

Find the stats to back up your claim, don’t throw out vague generalizations.

Are you?

You forget, 95 was an expansion year for the Grizzlies.
Extra top tier talented players from overseas: Manu, Dirk, Yao

Why do you care? Jordan was older than 30, the magical cut off line of comparison you used, by 95. What is the big deal about something that happened after Jordan hit 30?

A really, 3 extra top-tier player in a league that has 30 teams compared to 24/27 teams? Oh, that makes about 1 all-star per team, sounds like a slightly watered-down league to me.

Looking at the drafts in Jordan's years, who do we have going to the Top 50 list? By the mid 90's Jordan had no compe ion.

Shaq in 92 but he's also in Kobe's era. Off the top of my head, in Kobe's era we have AI, Duncan, LeBron, KG, and I'm sure there are plenty more I forgot.

Wait, so if Shaq was drafted during Jordan’s career where he “get it and start winning”, it matters that he was in Kobe’s era, he should be counted as part of Kobe’s compe ion, but we can ignore Barkley, Malone, Bird, Magic, McHale, Stockton, Drexler, Mullin, Ewing, Hakeem and Robinson, because they were drafted prior to Jordan “getting it”.

So we should only count the players that were drafted between 01 and 03, those were the only years Kobe got rings. Do we have a top-50 player there? No. Why would you count Garnett? He was drafted in 95, why AI and Duncan, they were drafted in 96 and 97, before Kobe “got it”.

Those were the years when Jordan started to "get it and start winning".


Only Shaq on that list. Kobe has to deal with AI, Duncan, LeBron, KG

Oops, none of the players were in the Kobe “got it” years outside of Lebron. And we know that since Lebron was drafted, Kobe didn’t win squat. We should just ignore them.

On the other hand, Shaq, a top 50 player was drafted in 92, Iverson in 96, Duncan in 97, all are years when Jordan won rings in. And Garnett was drafted in 95, between the two 3-peats

Yup, just like Pervis Ellison, Derrick Coleman, Glenn Robinson, Joe Smith.

You had no idea how good Derrick Coleman was, do you? He was a headcase, but an extremely talented headcase.

Ellison was a legit 18/9/2 man if his career wasn’t derailed by injuries, you just don’t know that because you never saw him play.

Glenn Robinson was a 20ppg scorer, and Joe Smith was an 18/8 guy, MUCH better than Olowakandi or Brown ever was. Besides, Joe Smith was drafted the same year as Garnett, why would Smith be grouped together in Jordan’s group, and Garnett in Kobe’s?

Inconsistent much?

And Jordan didn't have the zone to bust him up.

What did you say earlier?

You take the good and the bad when it comes to averages.

Stop making excuses for Kobe’s lesser scoring averages. He was simply less skilled in scoring up to the age of 30.

Yes, thankyou it is. The West has been much more difficult than the east for almost a decade now.

Jordan was playing in the east the last decade?

It's easier to score against lesser compe ion.

Jordan only played against the East back in the day, and Kobe only in the West?

Yup, as good as Jordan was, he could never hit 81.

That helps explain why Kobe scored 81! He was playing against a team in the East, the Raptors, and that was lesser compe ion, proven by their record going up against the West. I don’t know how the East teams of Jordan’s era would do up against the West teams in Kobe’s era, they never played each other.

Everybody will always remember 100 and 81 until they get surpassed. I can't even remember the Finals MVP from 2006.

I can. I can remember the top 2 performers in NBA finals, no problem. In fact, I can remember the last 30 Finals MVPs, I can’t remember the top 30 scoring performances.

Yes, I see the difference, past tense versus present tense (ie. pitting 1 players lifetime achievement vs another player who's not done with his career).

And we have also shown that Jordan’s accomplishments were better than Kobe’s at age 30.

So you never said "Kobe hasn't done anything since Shaq"?

Did I?

Nope, "double standard" means holding Kobe to 1 standard and giving Jordan a free pass on the same standard.

Such as having one standard for 3p%, while another for scoring? Gotcha.

Yup, Steve Kerr was a bad-ass 3 point shooter, even the Spurs thought so and brought him in.

And played him a whopping 10 mpg! Oh my goodness, Steve Kerr is more accomplished than Lebron James, he won 4 rings AND shot better from the field, and neither won the MVP.

By age 30,
Kerr 46% 3 pointers
Kobe 34% 3 pointers
Jordan 30% 3 pointers

Oh my GOSH!

Kobe wasn’t even as good as Kerr? Oh my GOSH!

Jordan won 3 straight with Kerr.

Kobe won 3 straight with Fisher. Fisher is just as good as Kerr.

Rodman was a rebounding beast and the most athletic player Phil ever coached. And Jordan won 3 straight with Rodman instead of Horace Grant.

So you mean Grant and Rodman are supplementary players who Jordan doesn’t need to win rings? Thanks.

I'll give you Shaq over Luc Longley.
Fisher < Kerr
Horry < Rodman
Harper < Pippen.

Of course Pippen>Harper, but Kobe > Pippen.

And what does this prove anyways?

Kerr > Fisher? How so? Fisher was a better defender, better ball handler, scored more, drives better.

Horry shred Rodman to pieces in the 95 playoffs as a rookie.

We're not talking about the non-MVPs, we're talking about MVPs. What's wrong? Couldn't find another player <30 with 3 rings and at least 1 MVP to compare with Jordan?

What’s wrong? Couldn’t find another player with 7 rings and at least 40 3 pters to compare to Horry?

Sorry, last time I checked, Kobe's 30 years old, I can't change that and we are talking about Kobe vs Jordan.

And Jordan was better than Kobe in every single category, other than 3pta.

Hey, whatever rocks your boat, you have your opinion. I'm not gonna dispute it as right or wrong.

You have your opinion, and I am going to say that it is wrong.

Probability is the same but the odds are good that the Lakers are going to win in the future. Even Vegas agrees, have a look at their odds.

Vegas have odds for the next 6 to 8 years? Please send me the link.

Shaq carries the team for 3 quarters, Kobe carries it for 1. That's always been the case. Shaq would not have won without Kobe's 4 quarter heroics. Kobe would not have won without Shaq's 3 quarter performances. Shaq was the more dominant player but his major kryptonite was 4th quarters.

Really? Show me Shaq’s 4th quarter stats, prove it.

Do you ever remember Shaq getting the ball in those instances? Nope. The rules say you can't foul Shaq in the last 2 minutes unless he has the ball. That's why the Lakers didn't give him the ball.

I do remember him flushing an alley-oop dunk to put out the Blazers. Seemed like your man Kobe gave him the ball.

I'll do better than that, I'll SHOW you. Now you go find me some clutch Shaq Game winners

Oops.

I distinctly remember Pop doing Hack-a-Shaq since Shaq's the same 4th quarter liability as he's always been. But, maybe I remember last year's Spurs vs Suns series wrong.

You remembered a lot of stuff wrong, so this is no surprise.

Or your end of career vs current career. Either one would be just as good.


Oh no, you never said that. I was just having you confirm it in a round about way since you wouldn't admit it straight out. Jordan didn't win those les by himself, he needed Pippen. Thankyou.

Sure, what’s wrong? He needed Pippen’s help, just like Shaq needed Kobe’s help.

Yup, unlike you, I don't think I know it all. It's my opinion so I say I think as opposed to your absolutes.

What did I say wrong?

Kobe and Jordan are not equal, I've said that before.

He was just as skilled / more skilled. Gotcha.

There's no cure for homerism. If you look through the same post, you see some more valid analysis from less biased Spur fans.

Those that agree with you are “valid analysis”, those that don’t are being homers.

I am sure you are not a Kobe homer, your analysis was “valid”.

[diego]

allanon, can you even make a good argument for kobe being the best LAKER of all time?

and if you are going to answer that it's unfair because kobe hasnt finished his career, just say it outright that he hasnt accomplished enough to say if he's the best laker ever instead of going on and on about all the ifs and buts that would have to occur for someone to consider him the best laker ever.

[Allanon]

allanon, can you even make a good argument for kobe being the best LAKER of all time?

and if you are going to answer that it's unfair because kobe hasnt finished his career, just say it outright that he hasnt accomplished enough to say if he's the best laker ever instead of going on and on about all the ifs and buts that would have to occur for someone to consider him the best laker ever.

Oh no, I have no problem with it, I said it before.

Right now, Kobe is not the greatest Laker ever. I'd put Magic and Shaq ahead of him right now.

[Allanon]

Year PPG/Team 3PA/Team
91 106.3 7.1
92 105.3 7.6
96 99.5 16.0
01 94.8 13.7
04 93.4 14.9
08 99.9 18.1

So not only did 3pters increased by 250%, scoring DECREASED from Jordan’s era, showing, irrefutably, that 3pters are a larger part of today’s offense. But of course, most people who actually watched the game back in the early 90s didn’t need numbers to back it up.

Any other bull you want to spew?[/quote]

Where did you get these #'s or did you make them up? Why are you missing years 93-95? 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007? Hiding some of your bull behind your made up "facts"?

So you are OK with saying that Kobe is a terrible scorer compared to Jordan at age 30? Kobe averages 25.0 ppg at age 30, Jordan averaged 33.3 ppg. 33.3 > 25.0, and infact, 29% better, and that is a vast margin.

Ah but you fail to mention, also at age 30, Kobe has 21,619 points...Jordan had 16,596. Nice try.

BTW, Kobe averages 3.7 3pt a game, if he shot 30% instead of 34% from 3, he will score a WHOPPING 0.44 points less a game.

Jordan averaged 1.7 3pter a game, and if he shot 34% instead of 30% from 3, he will score an amazing 0.20 points a game. That really is a “vast margin” when I compared the differences, huh? [/quote]

Yup, it is a VAST margin in games especially with games on the line. 30% is a poor 3 point shooter no matter how you try to bend the numbers your way. o Kobe's better shooting percentage game him like an extra 400 points (without calculator)

LOL, so you are expecting Kobe to improve his 3 pt shooting when his career goes on, despite:
- At age 29, he already has 12 years in the league, compared to 9 for Jordan
- 3 pters experienced a huge increase in importance to all the teams during Jordan’s career.

OK, fine, remember this when you compare scoring averages, rebounding, assists, steals, blks and FG% between the two.

Kobe doesn't need to improve his 3 point shooting, he's already ahead of Jordan in 3pt %.

He shot more, so? Shot selection. Jordan wasn’t a good 3pt shooter when he entered the league, and he took less shots, he became a proficient 3 pt shooter later on in his career. Is there a problem?

No problem, thanks for agreeing that Jordan wasn't as good a 3 point shooter as Kobe at age 30.

Find the stats to back up your claim, don’t throw out vague generalizations.

Your stat was a vague generalization.

Why do you care? Jordan was older than 30, the magical cut off line of comparison you used, by 95. What is the big deal about something that happened after Jordan hit 30?

Because this is a question about Jordan's overall career, read the question yourself.

A really, 3 extra top-tier player in a league that has 30 teams compared to 24/27 teams? Oh, that makes about 1 all-star per team, sounds like a slightly watered-down league to me.

Hahah, nice try at diminishing their achievements. "Top Tier", hahah, you're talking about 3 All Time Greats at the same time Kobe wanted to be an All Time Great.

Wait, so if Shaq was drafted during Jordan’s career where he “get it and start winning”, it matters that he was in Kobe’s era, he should be counted as part of Kobe’s compe ion, but we can ignore Barkley, Malone, Bird, Magic, McHale, Stockton, Drexler, Mullin, Ewing, Hakeem and Robinson, because they were drafted prior to Jordan “getting it”.

Sure you can include those guys outside of Bird and Magic. Sorry but I take LeBron, Duncan, Shaq over any of those guys.

So we should only count the players that were drafted between 01 and 03, those were the only years Kobe got rings. Do we have a top-50 player there? No. Why would you count Garnett? He was drafted in 95, why AI and Duncan, they were drafted in 96 and 97, before Kobe “got it”.

For the simple fact that Kobe is still in his career and has "got it" right now and has those guys to deal with this year.

Oops, none of the players were in the Kobe “got it” years outside of Lebron. And we know that since Lebron was drafted, Kobe didn’t win squat. We should just ignore them.

You're talking about Kobe's "got it" years in the past. Kobe's career is not over.... Oopsie.

On the other hand, Shaq, a top 50 player was drafted in 92, Iverson in 96, Duncan in 97, all are years when Jordan won rings in. And Garnett was drafted in 95, between the two 3-peats

Yup, all drafted at the tail end of Jordans' career so he never had to compete against them except for Shaq. Jordan was lucky to come in the watered down early 90's.

You had no idea how good Derrick Coleman was, do you? He was a headcase, but an extremely talented headcase.

You have no idea how talented Ron Artest is do you? He's a headcase but an extremely talented headcase. :yawn.

Ellison was a legit 18/9/2 man if his career wasn’t derailed by injuries, you just don’t know that because you never saw him play.

if his career didn't get derailed. But it DID get derailed and he's a footnote and a bust.

Glenn Robinson was a 20ppg scorer, and Joe Smith was an 18/8 guy, MUCH better than Olowakandi or Brown ever was. Besides, Joe Smith was drafted the same year as Garnett, why would Smith be grouped together in Jordan’s group, and Garnett in Kobe’s?

Hmm, Glenn Robinson vs LeBron. I take LeBron. Hmm, Joe Smith vs Tim Duncan, I take Tim Duncan.

Inconsistent much?

Not as much as your double-standards. heheh.

What did you say earlier?

I dunno, why don't you go read it?

Stop making excuses for Kobe’s lesser scoring averages. He was simply less skilled in scoring up to the age of 30.

Stop giving His Airness a free pass.

Jordan was playing in the east the last decade?

Nope, Kobe's been playing in the best conference for a decade now.

Jordan only played against the East back in the day, and Kobe only in the West?

Seeding is within the conference. More games are played within the conference. Playoffs are within the conference until the Finals. You don't think playing in a harder conference makes much of a difference?

That helps explain why Kobe scored 81! He was playing against a team in the East, the Raptors, and that was lesser compe ion, proven by their record going up against the West. I don’t know how the East teams of Jordan’s era would do up against the West teams in Kobe’s era, they never played each other.

Sure, and Jordan played in the East and still couldn't get 81 against those East teams.

I can. I can remember the top 2 performers in NBA finals, no problem. In fact, I can remember the last 30 Finals MVPs, I can’t remember the top 30 scoring performances.

Yup, and you will remember 81 and 100 until/if they get surpassed.

And we have also shown that Jordan’s accomplishments were better than Kobe’s at age 30.

Kobe 3 rings, Jordan 2 rings.

Did I?

I don't know, did you?

Such as having one standard for 3p%, while another for scoring? Gotcha.

Yes, you outta stop doing that, it hurts your case.

And played him a whopping 10 mpg! Oh my goodness, Steve Kerr is more accomplished than Lebron James, he won 4 rings AND shot better from the field, and neither won the MVP.

yeah, Steve Kerr's a ton more accomplished than LeBron.

Kobe wasn’t even as good as Kerr? Oh my GOSH!

Unfortunately no, Kerr was a much better 3 point shooter.

Kobe won 3 straight with Fisher. Fisher is just as good as Kerr.

Unfortunately, Fisher was never the best at anything, unlike Kerr who holds the all time 3 pt % record.

So you mean Grant and Rodman are supplementary players who Jordan doesn’t need to win rings? Thanks.

Yes, Jordan needed Pippen.

Of course Pippen>Harper, but Kobe > Pippen.

Of course.

And what does this prove anyways?

That Jordan's team was better than Kobe's team up until last year.

What’s wrong? Couldn’t find another player with 7 rings and at least 40 3 pters to compare to Horry?

No MVPs.

And Jordan was better than Kobe in every single category, other than 3pta.

Oh and that little thing called a Ring too

You have your opinion, and I am going to say that it is wrong.

Vegas have odds for the next 6 to 8 years? Please send me the link.

Nope, they have odds for this year and the Lakers are by far the favorites. I can get that link for you if you like.

Really? Show me Shaq’s 4th quarter stats, prove it.

Hahah, in denial of Hack-a-Shaq? Hint, it's named after Shaq.

I do remember him flushing an alley-oop dunk to put out the Blazers. Seemed like your man Kobe gave him the ball.

1 memory? Great, I gave you a video with tons and you have 1 memory of Shaq? Hahah.



Oops.[/quote]

Wow, that blank screen is really exciting.

You remembered a lot of stuff wrong, so this is no surprise.

Hahah, really where? Links, quotes, proof?

Sure, what’s wrong? He needed Pippen’s help, just like Shaq needed Kobe’s help.

Yup.

What did I say wrong?

You just said my opinion was wrong. That in itself is wrong.

He was just as skilled / more skilled. Gotcha.

Again, weak attempts at trying to put words in my mouth.

Those that agree with you are “valid analysis”, those that don’t are being homers.

I am sure you are not a Kobe homer, your analysis was “valid”.

Nope, those with opinions only are homers. Those who actually put up a valid argument or stats, in either direction, are valid.

I'm sure you're not a Kobe hater, your Analysis was "valid".

[Obstructed_View]

Oh no, I have no problem with it, I said it before.

Right now, Kobe is not the greatest Laker ever. I'd put Magic and Shaq ahead of him right now.

So Kareem, Zeke, and Baylor go without saying then, right? They're all above Shaq as Lakers.

[Allanon]

So Kareem, Zeke, and Baylor go without saying then, right? They're all above Shaq as Lakers.

Ah, yes, I forgot those guys as well although I didn't get to watch their games (some Kareem but missed most of his career) so can't say first hand.

[ambchang]

Where did you get these #'s or did you make them up? Why are you missing years 93-95? 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007? Hiding some of your bull behind your made up "facts"?

What? You don’t know where you got simple numbers like team ppt and 3PA? You don’t know of the concept of random sampling? I am not going to list out all 20 years for comparisons, if you want to, go ahead.

Look it up yourself on the web, it’s not really that hard to find.

Ah but you fail to mention, also at age 30, Kobe has 21,619 points...Jordan had 16,596. Nice try.

Oh yes, we ignore the fact that Kobe Bryant played way more games because he started at 18 instead of 23 like Jordan. Let us reward Kobe for living in an era where drafting high school players are common, instead of actual skills and ability.

At the age of 20, Andrew Bynum has more points than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell and Hakeem Olajuwon put together when they were 20. According to you, Bynum should be compared to those greats.

Besides, you yourself said:

You take the good and the bad when it comes to averages.

Jordan averaged 1.7 3pter a game, and if he shot 34% instead of 30% from 3, he will score an amazing 0.20 points a game. That really is a “vast margin” when I compared the differences, huh?

Yup, it is a VAST margin in games especially with games on the line. 30% is a poor 3 point shooter no matter how you try to bend the numbers your way. o Kobe's better shooting percentage game him like an extra 400 points (without calculator)[/quote]

Do you know the margin difference of those teams are? 0.2 points and 0.4 points is miniscule no matter how you cut it.

And yes, 400 points over a 12 year career is extremely small.

Kobe doesn't need to improve his 3 point shooting, he's already ahead of Jordan in 3pt %.

So how does Kobe Bryant’s game work, they can improve if they are not to Jordan’s level, but they can’t get worse when they are ahead of Jordan? Kobe could become a terrible 3pt shooter in the last few years of his career, dragging his average to an awful 30% using your logic. It cuts both ways.

No problem, thanks for agreeing that Jordan wasn't as good a 3 point shooter as Kobe at age 30.

And thanks for showing that Kobe wasn’t as good a 3 point shooter as Kerr was at age 30. Really means something.

Your stat was a vague generalization.

Then show your stats. Where are they?

Because this is a question about Jordan's overall career, read the question yourself.

But you only compare Jordan’s achievement up to age 30, why would you take other considerations now?

Hahah, nice try at diminishing their achievements. "Top Tier", hahah, you're talking about 3 All Time Greats at the same time Kobe wanted to be an All Time Great.

Manu is an all-time great? Yao is an all-time great? Maybe you should back it up with their accomplishments up to 30 years old. I fail to see how they are all-time greats.

And Jordan didn’t have any all-time greats in his era?

Sure you can include those guys outside of Bird and Magic. Sorry but I take LeBron, Duncan, Shaq over any of those guys.

Why outside of Bird an Magic? Jordan competed against them directly in the playoffs.

And Shaq was drafted in 92, right in the smack of Jordan’s dominance? Why is he all of a sudden a Kobe-era guy now? Duncan was drafted before Kobe got it and while Jordan was still winning rings. You came up with the standard of draft dates.

And you would take LeBron over Hakeem? Great!

For the simple fact that Kobe is still in his career and has "got it" right now and has those guys to deal with this year.

What has Kobe “gotten”? Refusing to shoot in a playoff game, folding faster than superman on laundry day in the finals. Oh yeah, he really “got it”.

You're talking about Kobe's "got it" years in the past. Kobe's career is not over.... Oopsie.

Kobe’s got it years has yet to come. He went into a nasty feud with Shaq (both responsible) and broke up a team in the middle of their dominance, he was recorded bad-mouthing Andrew Bynum in a video, he refused to shoot to show his coach who’s the boss, he led a team to a 40-point loss in an elimination game in the finals. The only thing he ever “got” was Shaq as his teammate.

Yup, all drafted at the tail end of Jordans' career so he never had to compete against them except for Shaq. Jordan was lucky to come in the watered down early 90's.

You mentioned something about the Grizzlies expanding in 95, wasn’t that the “tail-end” of Jordan’s career? And guess what? The league was even MORE watered-down, the Bobcats joined the Grizz and the Raptors in the league!

You have no idea how talented Ron Artest is do you? He's a headcase but an extremely talented headcase. :yawn.

Yes he was, and the Pacers were one a contender. What’s the problem?

if his career didn't get derailed. But it DID get derailed and he's a footnote and a bust.

Players get injured every year, Yao?

Hmm, Glenn Robinson vs LeBron. I take LeBron. Hmm, Joe Smith vs Tim Duncan, I take Tim Duncan.

Not as much as your double-standards. heheh.

Such as taking the worse and compare them to the best, right? How about LeBron vs. Shaq, much more even now is it? And Duncan was drafted BEFORE Kobe got it (both drafted around the same time), so a better comparison would be Duncan vs. Hakeem (with Hakeem being drafted the same year as Jordan). The comparisons are closer now, huh?

I dunno, why don't you go read it?

You don’t know what you said yourself? Even though it was quoted right underneath? You are dumber than I thought!

I will quote it for you again.

You take the good and the bad when it comes to averages.

Stop giving His Airness a free pass.

Such as how? Could you explain why Kobe scored less than Jordan? Or are you going into your excuses?

Nope, Kobe's been playing in the best conference for a decade now.

Wow, really, he played in the best conference for a decade now? That sounds really impressive, especially when there is a grand total of TWO conferences in the NBA.

Oh wait, so what? How does that factor into Jordan vs. Kobe comparisons?

Seeding is within the conference. More games are played within the conference. Playoffs are within the conference until the Finals. You don't think playing in a harder conference makes much of a difference?

But you were using regular season stats.

And MORE games doesn’t mean exclusive, does it?

Sure, and Jordan played in the East and still couldn't get 81 against those East teams.

Jordan played against that Raptors team? What year was it that Kobe scored 81 again? I don’t remember.

Yup, and you will remember 81 and 100 until/if they get surpassed.

I would remember them even after they were surpassed, just like I remember the final MVPs.

Kobe 3 rings, Jordan 2 rings.

So, Pippen got more rings than Jordan at the same age. So Kobe is comparable to Jordan, but not to Pippen?

Besides, Jordan won his 3rd ring at age 30 and 4 months and, Kobe will be 30 and 4 months by December. Given the fact that rings are not won until June, Kobe will have the same number of rings as Jordan at the same age of 30 years and 4 months.

I don't know, did you?

You don’t know about something you are trying to make a point on? You don’t even know whether I made a point or not, and you are saying I did and tried to argue with me? Do your own work, dig up your own arguments, and stop wasting my time.

[QUOTE=Allanon;2853887Yes, you outta stop doing that, it hurts your case.[/quote]

How so? Please explain. You DID use one standard for 3p%, and another for scoring when comparing the two players.

[QUOTE=Allanon;2853887 yeah, Steve Kerr's a ton more accomplished than LeBron.[/quote]

I rest my case.

[QUOTE=Allanon;2853887Unfortunately no, Kerr was a much better 3 point shooter.[/quote]

Kobe can compare to Jordan, but he doesn’t hold a candle to Kerr, gotcha.


[QUOTE=Allanon;2853887Unfortunately, Fisher was never the best at anything, unlike Kerr who holds the all time 3 pt % record.[/quote]

So? Artis Gilmore is the all-time leader in FG%, Karl Malone never was the best at anything in the league, does that mean Gilmore is better than Malone?

Calvin Murphy hold the best ft% record, Dwayne Wade never led the league in anything, is Murphy better than Wade?

[QUOTE=Allanon;2853887Yes, Jordan needed Pippen.

Of course.

That Jordan's team was better than Kobe's team up until last year.[/quote]

Yeah, because Jordan was better than Kobe. And what was so great about Kobe’s team last year? How they got totally embarrassed in the finals? Fortunately, this is one game like the 81 point game, every one will remember it until there was an even more embarrassing loss in the finals.

[QUOTE=Allanon;2853887No MVPs.[/quote]

Why are MVPs boolean functions? And why should you set the rules in accomplishments. I prefer my way, Horry is the greatest player of all-time.

[QUOTE=Allanon;2853887Oh and that little thing called a Ring too [/quote]
You mean how both of them will have 3 rings when they are 30 years old and 4 months, but one of them didn’t have one of the greatest players to lean on?

But you were making the case that Kobe’s Lakers can be contenders for the next 6 to 8 years.

Because it rhymes, it was developed for Wilt Chamberlain, look it up.

memory? Great, I gave you a video with tons and you have 1 memory of Shaq? Hahah.




Oops.

Wow, that blank screen is really exciting.

Wow, you have a video! This is really amazing! It proves for a fact that things that never happened on a video never existed.

I will try the youtube again.

[youtube]phM-QS6o8qc

And while you are preaching, pull us some stats, rather than saying random things like Jordan played against smaller SGs than Kobe did, or how the 00’s are so much more scoring heavy than the late 80’s, early 90’s.

Hahah, really where? Links, quotes, proof?

Such as how the early 90’s were low scoring, while the 00’s were so much more high scoring.

Yup.

You just said my opinion was wrong. That in itself is wrong.

Opinions COULD be wrong, especially when there are facts to refute them. Such as the scoring differential stated earlier.

Again, weak attempts at trying to put words in my mouth.

Then what were you trying to say?

Nope, those with opinions only are homers. Those who actually put up a valid argument or stats, in either direction, are valid.

I'm sure you're not a Kobe hater, your Analysis was "valid".

Hey, I put up the stats in this thread, you didn’t. I guess that makes my arguments valid, and you are just a homer.

And FYI, I like Kobe more than Jordan. I hated Jordan as a player, but I am not blind enough to say that Kobe is comparable to Jordan.

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Ah, yes, I forgot those guys as well although I didn't get to watch their games (some Kareem but missed most of his career) so can't say first hand.

I'm surprised that you saw any of Kareem's career, since you obviously missed all of Jordan's.

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why compare kobe to mj when lebron is all set to supplant duncan(eat that, mutha ers!) as the best?

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why compare kobe to mj when lebron is all set to supplant duncan(eat that, mutha ers!) as the best?

That's a similar argument to Kobe vs. Jordan, actually. Well done.