Your Vote, Your Reasons

[Kip Dynamite]

Your mom is the Anti-Christ!

[Findog]

I tried to read the entire thread but I am still confused about one thing.

Did Angel ever explain why it is that she holds Obama to such a high level of scrutiny and standard to which she does not hold McCain to. From what I could see, she kept moving the bar with regards to the "proof" she needed about Obama, but McCain saying he prayed while a POW was enough to satisfy her.

I'm guessing that most churches are politicized and the anti-Democrat message is there, sometimes subtle, sometimes overt.

Here's a great article from Matt Taibbi which lays out the case that McCain is not very religious at all, but is posing as such for the election:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/sto...thout_a_prayer

Sitting here in the North Phoenix Baptist pews, McCain has a look on his face like he'd just as well suck a as do an altar call. It's one of his most likable qualities.

[angel_luv]

Angel- do you even think that all people who claim to be Christian are saved- or only the ones who agree with you on everything. For example, are only fundamentalist Christians saved- because lots of Christians around the world are not Biblical literalists. The notion of fundamentalist Christianity is, if I remember correctly, very much an American movement of the past 100 to 150 or so years.

The underlined above is not my call to make.


I would have been wise to have remembered the following verses back at the beginning of this thread.

1 Samuel 16:7- But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

John 10:14- "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me.

[rascal]

The underlined above is not my call to make.


I would have been wise to have remembered the following verses back at the beginning of this thread.

1 Samuel 16:7- But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

John 10:14- "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me.

Then why believe that Jesus is the only right way? Isn't the message more important than the messenger? And all religions have much of the same core beliefs.

What is important is the heart as you listed above. But you believe all other religions Jews, Muslims, Hindus ect. all are doomed for ? There is contradiction there.

[angel_luv]

Then why believe that Jesus is the only right way? Isn't the message more important than the messenger? And all religions have much of the same core beliefs.

What is important is the heart as you listed above. But you believe all other religions Jews, Muslims, Hindus ect. all are doomed for ? There is contradiction there.

1 Samuel 16 is the story how David was chosen King even though in comparison to his stronger, older brothers he was the least likely candidate.
That Scripture shows us that God's logic does not always line up with our own.



The verse I quoted in John 10 , which clearly states that Jesus knows who belong to Him and those who belong to Jesus know that they do, was in answer to Ploto's direct question to me.




John 10 the chapter in its entire context deals much more specifically with the questions you posed.

I have copied the entire thing for your consideration.

"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.

The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep.

The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.


Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.

All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.

The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—

just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

At these words the Jews were again divided.

Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?"

But others said, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"

Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter,

and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade.

The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,[c] tell us plainly."
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,

but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?

If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.

But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. Here he stayed
and many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a miraculous sign, all that John said about this man was true."
And in that place many believed in Jesus.

[clambake]

holy

[angel_luv]

Some verses I would like you all to consider in regards to faith and logic.



Hebrews 11:1-3- Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
This is what the ancients were commended for.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

1 Corinthians 13: 12- 13-
Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


Matthew 18:1-4- At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
He called a little child and had him stand among them.
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 6:33- But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well

Proverbs 3:5-6- Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.

[clambake]

have you ever considered one of those nice white jackets.....that ties in the back?

[ElNono]

Some verses I would like you all to consider in regards to faith and logic.

Hebrews 11:1-3- Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
This is what the ancients were commended for.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

1 Corinthians 13: 12- 13-
Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Matthew 18:1-4- At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
He called a little child and had him stand among them.
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 6:33- But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well

Proverbs 3:5-6- Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.

You left out the logic part. Where is it?

[SnakeBoy]

Back to who we voted for.

I voted McCain/Palin because Obama wants to raise my taxes.

Voted for the Libertarian candidate the senate/rep races specifically because of the bailout package. A vote against the R in bents but not for the dems.

[LnGrrrR]

I voted for Obama because I absolutely loathe the idea of the unitary executive, and hope he'll dismantle some of the Patriot Act bills. (Of course, his vote for FISA/telecom immunity doesn't give me lots of hope, but moreso than McCain.)

[angel_luv]

have you ever considered one of those nice white jackets.....that ties in the back?

I prefer to take Jesus up on His promise to:

" Provide for those who grieve in Zion— to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair.
They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the LORD for the display of his splendor."
- Isaiah 61:3

Thanks though.

[angel_luv]

You left out the logic part. Where is it?

Proverbs 3:5-6 summed it up best.

Trust God. Don't lean on your understanding. Acknowledge God and He will make your path straight.

[clambake]

holy

[Centaur of the Sun]

I'm going to go out on a not so long limb and say that people like Angel_Luv drive far more people from religion than they would actually draw to it.

If I was religious I would read what she's posted and say to myself "THIS is what I'm supposed to become? THIS?"

[Centaur of the Sun]

I'm not a big fan of zombies. Something about the undead that frightens me.

[ashbeeigh]

I voted for Barack Obama and Joe Biden today because I want my kids to have $4,000 for college for doing what I did every summer for free; community service.

[RandomGuy]

I voted for Obama because I absolutely loathe the idea of the unitary executive, and hope he'll dismantle some of the Patriot Act bills. (Of course, his vote for FISA/telecom immunity doesn't give me lots of hope, but moreso than McCain.)

That is one of the things I really really hope he reverses, and would be the one thing I would tell him if I had to chose one topic to talk to him about.

There are a lot of power that the Bush white house has attempted to claim for the executive that need to be stomped on and stomped on hard before they become lasting precedents.

Given that he was a cons utional law professor at one point, I do hold out hope for that. (HA!)

[ElNono]

Proverbs 3:5-6 summed it up best.

Trust God. Don't lean on your understanding. Acknowledge God and He will make your path straight.

That's completely illogical.

[I Love Me Some Me]

That's completely illogical.

Maybe...but just to rehash what I said in a different thread - people need to not only know what the Scriptures say, but they need to understand why they say it. I believe in God, and I believe that he is a rational and logical God. So when he gives instruction in the Bible, it is just as important to understand WHY He gives the instructions he gives, and not just what those instructions are.

That's where Christians fail in these conversations. They cannot support what they believe, with logistical, rational explanations to those who do not believe. Repeatedly quoting scripture to a non-believer is mostly ineffective. They are going to want to know why, and if you cannot tell them, then your argument will fail. Badly.

[ElNono]

Maybe...but just to rehash what I said in a different thread - people need to not only know what the Scriptures say, but they need to understand why they say it. I believe in God, and I believe that he is a rational and logical God. So when he gives instruction in the Bible, it is just as important to understand WHY He gives the instructions he gives, and not just what those instructions are.

That's where Christians fail in these conversations. They cannot support what they believe, with logistical, rational explanations to those who do not believe. Repeatedly quoting scripture to a non-believer is mostly ineffective. They are going to want to know why, and if you cannot tell them, then your argument will fail. Badly.

+1

[MannyIsGod]

I voted for Barack Obama and Joe Biden today because I want my kids to have $4,000 for college for doing what I did every summer for free; community service.

[Bender]

[Tully365]

Has the possibility been raised yet that the creator of this never-ending thread is the anti-christ? I mean, c'mon people! He's as clever as that little devil that sits on your shoulder and "innocently" encourages you to debate controversial topics, and his name is Dark Reign, for god's sake!! I can't believe I almost fell for it! From now on, I will wear a necklace of 20 garlic cloves and rinse my contact lenses will holy water every time I visit this thread.

[LnGrrrR]

Proverbs 3:5-6 summed it up best.

Trust God. Don't lean on your understanding. Acknowledge God and He will make your path straight.

Uhm... what about the arguments that Job and others had with God? God seems to APPRECIATE people who try to use understanding, instead of blind obedience.