LeBron's FT shooting to me is just an indicator that LeBron doesn't take improving his game as seriously as he makes it sound. I'm sure he's a hard worker, but is he working on his game as hard as Kobe is working on his? Or Jordan worked on his? The FT shooting alone makes the answer to those questions obvious. If LeBron really wanted to be the GOAT and win a le, he might have mixed in a free throw shooting session or two amidst all his sexing up of Chinese hookers.
Actually no, Lebron is not more talented than Kobe. Kobe has refined his game to a point where he literally has no weaknesses. He can do it all and then some.
Lebron still has glaring holes in his game that are overcompensated by the fact that he can drive to the hole like a freight train, get hacked, and still make the layup.
Lebron is not the *best* player in the game. He's the most impactful.
Yep. A lot of great players can look bad off of one game. If he bricks late game free throws a few more times, maybe we can say something about it, but it's stupid to judge off of one game.
Just watch this video to see some of Lebron's shooting :
You sure about that? I mean we are talking about the guy who didn't do in the finals this past year, allowing his team to blow a 24 point lead (something Jordan or even Lebron would have NEVER let his team do), not to mention that massive 3-1 series lead he blew against the Suns, including GIVING UP on his team in the series.
No way does Lebron allow his teams to screw those kinds of situations up. You know why? Two reasons. Because hes a better leader, and he doesnt get comfortable settling for jumpshots. He is always playing aggresively, whereas Kobe these days sits back to shoot low percentage fade-aways FAR too often.
It really doesn't matter. These same posters will at least 18 times through the season switch their pick as to who the better player is based off of single game performances.
LeBron led his team all the way to the NBA Finals and failed to lead that same team to one Finals win, not one, while shooting 36% from the field and 20% from the three point range (4-for-20). That Finals series included game 4 where the Cavaliers lost to the Spurs by 1 point and LeBron missed 4 free throws. LeBron averaged 5.8 turnovers in those 2007 NBA Finals.
In LeBron's first two games against the highly touted Boston Celtics in the Eastern Conference semifinal playoff series last season, LeBron shot a whopping 19% (only up from 11% from game 1 because he shot lights out for 25% from the field in game 2) from the field and committed 17 turnovers.
In the pivotal game 5 at Boston, the Cavs had a 14 point lead late in the second quarter against the Celtics. In that game 5, from the time the Cavaliers were up 14 points, 43-29, with 3:49 left in the second quarter until the end of the third quarter, where the Celtics led 72-63, LeBron played all 15:49 minutes and went 1-for-6 from the field, including 1 shot blocked, had 2 points and 1 assist, committed 1 turnover and 1 foul, shot no free throws, and pulled down no rebounds. So, on that 43-20 run by the Celtics, LeBron's leadership was on full display. This was just last season by the way, a few months ago.
I've already said in this very thread that LeBron is now the better player. He has more talent and more natural ability. But, if someone is arguing that Kobe is the better player--and it's still very much a debatable topic--it's not only free throw shooting that gives Kobe the edge. LeBron is better, but you cannot argue that he has more mental toughness or more of a killer instinct than Kobe. That's a failing argument.
Last edited by JamStone; 10-29-2008 at 04:07 PM.
I think Lebron is good, but I mean Cleveland runs the same damn play every time and when they try running something else, the defense snuffs it and they get the ball back to Lebron. The question is... Does he make the players around him better?
Cavs almost eliminated Celtics
Lakers got destroyed by Celtics.
Enough said
While matchups make a huge difference, that cavs team had no business taking Boston to 7. And there can only be one reason that happened: LeBron James.
Ok. Let's play that game.
Lakers beat the Spurs.
Spurs swept the Cavaliers.
Stop with that bull . You want to argue that Joe Johnson is just as good as LeBron and better than Kobe as well? You know damn well that the NBA Finals is not the same as the Eastern Conference semifinals. And, Boston was playing some of its best basketball in the NBA Finals, while Ray Allen didn't even bother showing up against Cavaliers. But, I guess you can argue that Wally Szczerbiak is a defensive stopper now too.
edit: And, the Celtics destroyed the Lakers in one game, game 7. All the other games were close enough that the Lakers had chances to take the other three Boston wins.
You can say all that, but fact is... Kobe gave up on his team, and multiple times. You can't say the same about Lebron.
Also... Kobe's cast >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lebron's cast.
Kobes supporting cast > Lebron's supporting cast
Lebron has swept Kobe the past two years in their head to head matchups. In fact, the last time Kobe beat Lebron was January of 2006, and by 1 measly point. Lebron has owned Kobe for a long time now, despite having a far tier squad.
Why change the subject?
You argued my point that Kobe has more mental toughness and more of a killer instinct.
That post does not refute that.
Kobe gave up on his team that time against Phoenix. Ok. That doesn't suddenly mean he doesn't have more mental toughness or more of a killer instinct than LeBron overall. That is an example of Kobe quitting.
I can go back and cite Tayshaun Prince dunking on LeBron and blocking his shot in the same playoff series. That doesn't mean Tayshaun is the better athlete than LeBron because I have two examples of Tayshaun doing athletic things against LeBron.
Or, I can show some examples of LeBron missing dunks. Would those few examples support the notion that LeBron isn't one of the best dunkers in the league?
Do you know how to follow an argument?
I said Kobe was mentally tougher and had more of a killer instinct than LeBron. You ask if I was sure by saying LeBron is more of a leader. Not only does that not directly refute my point, but now you mention how Kobe quit on his team once in the playoffs as if that refutes my point as well. It doesn't. Heck, it isn't even in the same vein as the discussion. And, it's an example of Kobe being an ass.
Stay with the discussion. Stay with the argument.
You don't read well.
I already ing said LeBron is the better player, you imbecile.
I was arguing someone's reasoning for their conclusion, not their conclusion.
LeBron > Kobe
I've said it several times in this thread.
R-E-A-D, P-L-E-A-S-E.
My arguments have been about specific traits of each player, the issue of mental toughness and killer instinct. While LeBron is the better player, Kobe has more mental toughness and more of a killer instinct. That's what I've been saying.
And, would you like to now argue how Paul Pierce is better than both LeBron and Kobe since he outplayed both of them in last season's playoffs and last night.
JamStone there is no point arguing with the stretch's and zosa's of this forum. They hate Kobe, I mean literally they hate the man for what he has done to their teams. It clouds their judgment and is clearly visible in biased postings.
The bottom line is this. Lebron still cannot shoot free throws or jumpshots at an acceptable rate for a superstar perimeter player. Until he does he will never reach MJ or Kobe's level. When the game is on the line, the last person you want to send to the line is Kobe. You KNOW Kobe is making those free throws just like you KNOW Kobe is hitting that last shot if you leave him open. What more proof of this can we look at other than the Olympics where Kobe and Lebron played together. The team unanimously gave Kobe the ball to close the game out while Lebron was camping out in the corner. And guess what, Kobe delivered.
It's fine. I even gave it up for LeBron. He's the better athlete. He's the bigger, stronger, faster player. He has more natural talent than Kobe. LeBron is now a better player than Kobe. But, if we are going to dissect each player, each still has failings and flaws. And, each has different strengths over the other. Kobe is still the more clutch player, the mentally tougher player, the player with more of a killer instinct. Those are things LeBron still doesn't touch Kobe at. And, still I say LeBron is the better player.
Just learn how to read and follow the discussion before arguing with irrelevant and nonsensical points.
What do you mean by better player?
Lebron is certainly not more talented than Kobe. He has glaring weaknesses in his game that is overcompensated by his freakish athleticism. He does not share Kobe's work ethic or dedication to the game either. He's been in the league how many years and he's yet to significantly improve his F/T shooting.
More impactful player, yes. But *better* is debatable.
You're getting into a semantical argument if you start arguing about definitions of the word "better."
Each of us, even ones that agree, don't have the same exact definition of what makes any player "better" than any other player. Kobe has more polished skill than LeBron. LeBron is bigger, stronger, faster. And, while LeBron's skill isn't at Kobe's level, that freakish combination of size, strength, and athleticism allows him to (as you say) over compensate for any of those failings so that he can outplay a guy like Kobe who has better polished skill. As stretch mentioned, LeBron has outplayed Kobe in the last few match-ups against each other. Not only has LeBron's team beaten Kobe's teams, LeBron has individually played better than Kobe, has been able to score on him, and even shut him down defensively the last couple times they met.
I say Kobe has more skill. But, I do sincerely believe LeBron is now the better player.
Lucky he plays to his strengths and is the games best finisher inside.
Are you this ing dense?
Being a superstar player means your team counts on you to close games out. When you're a perimeter player who can't shoot free throws or jumpshots you simply aren't on the level of MJ or Kobe when the game is on the line.
I think the Cavs had the most come from behind wins in the 4th Q last year. LeBron led the league in 4th Q scoring.
Please look at this.
http://82games.com/CSORT11.HTM
Its not just scoring he leads Kobe in, in the 'clutch' ratings. Leads Kobe in blocks, steals, rebounds, assists, less turnovers, field goal %.
Kobe is 84% FT
LeBron is 79% FT
Kobe is much better in 3pt% but doesn't nearly attempt as many.
Kobe also shoots .430% EFG on jumpshots in the clutch, whilst James shoots .452%.
http://www.82games.com/0708/07CLE13E.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/07LAL7E.HTM
I liked the House Party dance.
Kobe's more like a Duncan and Lebron is more like a Shaq (fewer skills, all physical). At time's, Shaq dominated Duncan, but when it's all said and done,
Duncan > Shaq.
Someone earlier mentioned:
Lebron 1a, Kobe 1b. I think that's about right "at this point in time."
But at the end of both their careers, I'd still place my bet on Kobe being
considered a greater basketball player. Kobe's all around game and skill sets will allow him to be a threat even when he gets up there in age when athleticism plays less of a factor.
Last edited by LA24; 10-30-2008 at 04:22 AM.
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