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  1. #51
    PRICELESS SPURS FAN polandprzem's Avatar
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    private message

  2. #52
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    Bowen is sure getting a gold ticket pass.
    second straight game that Bruce Bowen had a bad performance
    I'm not sure what designation below "bad" you want for Bowen . . .

    Roy was blowing by him down the middle tearing the Spurs D apart like Bruce was a week old cadaver. He was doing a Finley impersonation trying to stay in front of Roy.
    The two times Roy got middle on Bowen, I think he traveled. But yeah, Bowen hasn't looked good at all to start the season. It's too early to blame it all on age, though. Bowen's problem so far is he's been out of position on defense. It's like his head isn't all the way in the game.

    I'd be more worried he had lost a step and is done if players were dancing on him or he wasn't able to get around picks anymore. But right now, he keeps on just getting confused and isn't in the right spot.

    If Bowen's struggles in the first two games are due to falling off the age cliff, the season is already over . . .

  3. #53
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    It's not just Bowen maybe showing his age, but Kurt Thomas too. He's wasn't the player he was three years ago even last year, and now he sure looks worse. Maybe it's still the lingering camp injury, but he's 36 and hasn't been an iron man the 3 seasons prior to this.
    Yeah, Thomas is the player to actively be worrying about. He's playing about as good of defense as Bonner is right now -- which tells you how far he's fallen. He's also slower and he's gotten outrebounded by guards and small forwards so far in the season.

    It's gotten to the point that it's going to be difficult to play Thomas together with Duncan. That combo just makes the team too slow. Thomas has a role as Duncan's backup but that's about it if he can't find some mobility and a couple inches of vertical jump.

    Right this second, $8M and a first round draft pick for Thomas doesn't look like the greatest of moves.

    The bad news is the Spurs have all these same guys who aren't helping Duncan and Parker too much all locked up through next season. KT. Bonner. Finley. Oberto. And if the wheels really ever do fall off, Bowen. And people who think Oberto is some missing link to success I believe are mistaken. He'll be 34 by the playoffs and he's not some great productive player when healthy anyway. Doesn't matter if he starts or KT starts you still will have one of the worst starting centers in the league.


  4. #54
    Veteran Manufan909's Avatar
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    Just curious, who's face was photoshopped into Jesus?

  5. #55
    I'm Mavs>Spurs bitch Allanon's Avatar
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    A point which makes Pop's negligence of this position even more inexcusable.
    Spurs passed over Darrell Arthur to get Hill.

    Arthur's the perfect size for a long 3.

    Arthur's got 25 rebounds, 11 points, 4 blocks 3 steals in his 2 games. Grizz just beat the Magic yesterday.

  6. #56
    ......................... mystargtr34's Avatar
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    Spurs passed over Darrell Arthur to get Hill.

    Arthur's the perfect size for a long 3.

    Arthur's got 25 rebounds, 11 points, 4 blocks 3 steals in his 2 games. Grizz just beat the Magic yesterday.
    He has not outside game, until he can put the ball on the floor AND develop a jumper, he wont have much success.

  7. #57
    ......................... mystargtr34's Avatar
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    At the three that is

  8. #58
    I'm Mavs>Spurs bitch Allanon's Avatar
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    Yah, Arthur's not much of an offensive player in the half court. But in transition, he'd look good running the wing with Tony instead of Bowen.

    But his main asset would be defense and rebounds. Spurs wouldn't get killed by athletic long 3's any more (Batum + Outlaw scored 23 points). Nor would they get outrebounded 37-31 like last night.

  9. #59
    Mahinmi in ? picnroll's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what designation below "bad" you want for Bowen . . .
    . . .


    ... His defense against Roy was decent but not to the level we expect from Bowen. ....
    There's the golden pass.

    What do you define as "decent"? Upper 10%? Upper 25%? Mid-range of an NBA player? Calling Bowen's defense pedestrian for an NBA player would be accurate. Is decent a guy who jumps three feet at every jab step to compensate? Who gets beat on curls even when he isn't getting picked?

  10. #60
    5. timvp's Avatar
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    He had some possessions against Roy where he denied him the ball. And he wasn't burned every single time, as you are making it out to be.

    His defense was bad based on Bowen level defense. For your average NBA player, it was still halfway decent. To compare Bowen's defense to Finley's defense is still laughable even if Bowen played 25% worse than he did.

  11. #61
    Ghost of Mr. K SenorSpur's Avatar
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    Pop needs to love Ian, Hill, and Mason, and hate Finley, Bruce and KT. How bad will the old timers have to play for Pop to realize they shouldn't be playing?
    Agree. The only sacred cows on this team are the Big Three. Everybody else should have to earn their time based on their performance. Despite the minor injection of some youth, this is still a very old team. Finley, KT and Bowen are really giving diminished returns to start the season. And to think, they comprise 2 starters and 1 major rotation player. Unbelievable the Pop would continuously gamble on players with declining skills.

    Message to Pop: There are some young players that can play too. You saw that last night versus Portland.

  12. #62
    Remember Cherokee Parks The Truth #6's Avatar
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    Again, I would say Bowen and KT ARE getting PT based on their performance because Pop has hardly played them, especially considering how much we need defense from Bowen and rebounding from KT. Pop has gone with Ime and Mason to close out the games.

    I agree that the infatuation with Finley is probably still there but he's made a majority of his shots so far so to be fair we can't really demand to bench him until he goes into a shooting slump, which, I admit can always happen at any moment with him, and when it does then will be the time to give more minutes to Farmer.

  13. #63
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    Good and Bad, I guess.

    I saw the game the same way TimVP saw it.

    I was surprised at how many points we were able to score. Tony and Tim played great, at least on offense and were productive.

    Until late in the game, it seemed like Tim and Tony were the only ones who were able to score or doing anything on the offensive end.

    But what killed us is our lack of defensive rebounding. Kurt Thomas seemed useless out there. Bonner wasn't much better.

    Defense isn't complete until you secure the defensive rebound. Due to limited bigs and the slowness of KT, we couldn't play two bigs together very often and we got killed on the boards partly as a result. Tim and 4 smalls.

    In the first half, the fears about who else would score for us besides Tim and Tony were as daunting as originally thought to be, but they were joined by poor defensive rebounding.

    As the game wore on, however, Mason, Finley and Udoka hit some big shots and we were able to get back into the game.

    We can be encouraged by Mason's performance. He looks like he could be a real contributor to the team. Also, Finley's offense was adequate. So, with Hill back and Oberto back, our offense might be adequate. not very good. but mediocre at least.

    However, going forward, we have some major issues with Tim's minutes. It is just like the bad old days when Tim sitting down meant we were going to lose 10 points in our margin. Tim can't play 40 minutes a game. If he does, he will be worn out by March or April. Plus, he will become less effective during the minutes that he does play. We probably won't make the playoffs, but if we did, he would not be effective at that time either.

    We are in desperate need of a better rebounding big. If we allow that many second shot attempts, we will lose most of our games. Maybe Oberto will help some in that regard, but how much?

    Third, lack of contribution from various players:

    Bowen isn't a great offensive contributor. So, if he isn't a lock-down defender, then he isn't helping our team. Plus, we need points now. So, if he has lost a step or his defense has diminished, his minutes will need to be reduced too. It is too early to say, but given that points are at a premium, I would begin with the presumption that Bruce needs to play less than 20 minutes a game unless new evidence demonstrates that he is playing such good defense that it helps our team for him to play more minutes presents itself.

    Bonner is not going to be very productive offensively or defensively, nor is he is a great rebounder. He can hit a wide open set 3. That is the only thing he can do. And very few points per game. When points are at a premium, his value is limited.

    Finley: Michael did an adequate job scoring and shot an adequate percentage last game. We need double-digit scoring from him since Manu is gone. 11 points barely qualifies and he did shoot below 50%; however, he also shot 60% from the 3 point line which is outstanding. It would help a lot if he could give us 14 points a game until Manu is back. We desperately need his offense. Finley has had up and downs with the Spurs. We need an up year from him this year with Manu out.

    Thomas: Thomas was at one time a double double guy and a solid defender. Until Oberto returns or Mahimni recovers, Thomas will be Tim's back-up. He has to defensive rebound and help protect the paint during that time. So far, he hasn't done it. He hasn't given us anything.

    Farmer: Didn't do much last game. His role is to score in order to make up for Manu's absence. So, he needs to put the ball in the basket for us because we will need the points.

    Vaughan: can't expect him to put a lot of points on the board, but still we will need points from everybody.

    When Hill, Mahinmi, Oberto, and Tolliver return to the line-up, they will also need to be productive.

    I just think that there might be too many unproductive offensive players on our team when we need to replace the scoring of one of our top 3 players.
    I don't know if we will be able to keep up this kind of scoring through out the regular season until Manu gets back.

    When everybody but Manu is back, I hope that we get production out of:

    1. Tim Duncan 24 ppg, 10 reb
    2. Tony Parker 24 ppg, 8 assists, 4 reb
    3. Roger Mason 14 ppg, 4 reb
    4. Michael Finley 14 ppg, 3 reb
    5. Ime Udoka 7 ppg 3 reb
    6. Oberto 7 ppg 4 reb
    7. Ian Mahinmi 7 ppg 7 reb
    8. Hill 7 ppg 3 assists
    9. Farmer 4 ppg
    10. Bonner 4 ppg 2 reb
    11. Thomas 2 ppg 1 reb
    12. Bowen 1 ppg 1 reb
    13. Tolliver 1 ppg 1 reb
    14. Vaughan 1 ppg 1 assist

    Roger replaces Manu (in the line-up), Ime replaces Bruce (in the line-up), we go small so Michael is in and we get scoring, and Tim is the lone big [this is option 1 and we are small- similar to against the Trailblazers].

    Or Tim and Oberto are in together (instead of Tim and Micheal - so we are not going small, we are normal) [option 2 - when everyone is healthy except Manu]. Then, Kurt and Mahinimi sub in for Tim or Oberto (respectively, Kurt subs in for either Tim or Oberto, when Tim or Oberto returns, then Mahinmi subs in for the other). Hill subs in for Tony Parker. Either Tony or Tim is in at all times. Roger is is the starting line up still. Michael starts. Udoka subs in for Michael Finley off the bench.

  14. #64
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    What burns me up is we blew a first round draft pick on Kurt Thomas. It burned me up at the time, burns me up now. I know we've been absolute e at picking in the draft, but there's practically no other way to get talent on this team next summer.

  15. #65
    Believe. Fingaroll44's Avatar
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    Message to Pop: There are some young players that can play too. You saw that last night versus Portland.
    Manu is hurt, Hill is hurt, Ian is hurt, Tolliver had a death in the family and Farmer played. I dont understand the complaints when all our young guys are hurt or having misfortune right now. Patience is a truly a virtue. And by the way Farmer got trapped on the baseline and had a costly turnover that could've been the difference in the game.

  16. #66
    Ghost of Mr. K SenorSpur's Avatar
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    What burns me up is we blew a first round draft pick on Kurt Thomas. It burned me up at the time, burns me up now. I know we've been absolute e at picking in the draft, but there's practically no other way to get talent on this team next summer.
    Bingo!

  17. #67
    Veteran Manufan909's Avatar
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    Good and Bad, I guess.

    I saw the game the same way TimVP saw it.

    I was surprised at how many points we were able to score. Tony and Tim played great, at least on offense and were productive.

    Until late in the game, it seemed like Tim and Tony were the only ones who were able to score or doing anything on the offensive end.

    But what killed us is our lack of defensive rebounding. Kurt Thomas seemed useless out there. Bonner wasn't much better.

    Defense isn't complete until you secure the defensive rebound. Due to limited bigs and the slowness of KT, we couldn't play two bigs together very often and we got killed on the boards partly as a result. Tim and 4 smalls.

    In the first half, the fears about who else would score for us besides Tim and Tony were as daunting as originally thought to be, but they were joined by poor defensive rebounding.

    As the game wore on, however, Mason, Finley and Udoka hit some big shots and we were able to get back into the game.

    We can be encouraged by Mason's performance. He looks like he could be a real contributor to the team. Also, Finley's offense was adequate. So, with Hill back and Oberto back, our offense might be adequate. not very good. but mediocre at least.

    However, going forward, we have some major issues with Tim's minutes. It is just like the bad old days when Tim sitting down meant we were going to lose 10 points in our margin. Tim can't play 40 minutes a game. If he does, he will be worn out by March or April. Plus, he will become less effective during the minutes that he does play. We probably won't make the playoffs, but if we did, he would not be effective at that time either.

    We are in desperate need of a better rebounding big. If we allow that many second shot attempts, we will lose most of our games. Maybe Oberto will help some in that regard, but how much?

    Third, lack of contribution from various players:

    Bowen isn't a great offensive contributor. So, if he isn't a lock-down defender, then he isn't helping our team. Plus, we need points now. So, if he has lost a step or his defense has diminished, his minutes will need to be reduced too. It is too early to say, but given that points are at a premium, I would begin with the presumption that Bruce needs to play less than 20 minutes a game unless new evidence demonstrates that he is playing such good defense that it helps our team for him to play more minutes presents itself.

    Bonner is not going to be very productive offensively or defensively, nor is he is a great rebounder. He can hit a wide open set 3. That is the only thing he can do. And very few points per game. When points are at a premium, his value is limited.

    Finley: Michael did an adequate job scoring and shot an adequate percentage last game. We need double-digit scoring from him since Manu is gone. 11 points barely qualifies and he did shoot below 50%; however, he also shot 60% from the 3 point line which is outstanding. It would help a lot if he could give us 14 points a game until Manu is back. We desperately need his offense. Finley has had up and downs with the Spurs. We need an up year from him this year with Manu out.

    Thomas: Thomas was at one time a double double guy and a solid defender. Until Oberto returns or Mahimni recovers, Thomas will be Tim's back-up. He has to defensive rebound and help protect the paint during that time. So far, he hasn't done it. He hasn't given us anything.

    Farmer: Didn't do much last game. His role is to score in order to make up for Manu's absence. So, he needs to put the ball in the basket for us because we will need the points.

    Vaughan: can't expect him to put a lot of points on the board, but still we will need points from everybody.

    When Hill, Mahinmi, Oberto, and Tolliver return to the line-up, they will also need to be productive.

    I just think that there might be too many unproductive offensive players on our team when we need to replace the scoring of one of our top 3 players.
    I don't know if we will be able to keep up this kind of scoring through out the regular season until Manu gets back.

    When everybody but Manu is back, I hope that we get production out of:

    1. Tim Duncan 24 ppg, 10 reb
    2. Tony Parker 24 ppg, 8 assists, 4 reb
    3. Roger Mason 14 ppg, 4 reb
    4. Michael Finley 14 ppg, 3 reb
    5. Ime Udoka 7 ppg 3 reb
    6. Oberto 7 ppg 4 reb
    7. Ian Mahinmi 7 ppg 7 reb
    8. Hill 7 ppg 3 assists
    9. Farmer 4 ppg
    10. Bonner 4 ppg 2 reb
    11. Thomas 2 ppg 1 reb
    12. Bowen 1 ppg 1 reb
    13. Tolliver 1 ppg 1 reb
    14. Vaughan 1 ppg 1 assist

    Roger replaces Manu (in the line-up), Ime replaces Bruce (in the line-up), we go small so Michael is in and we get scoring, and Tim is the lone big [this is option 1 and we are small- similar to against the Trailblazers].

    Or Tim and Oberto are in together (instead of Tim and Micheal - so we are not going small, we are normal) [option 2 - when everyone is healthy except Manu]. Then, Kurt and Mahinimi sub in for Tim or Oberto (respectively, Kurt subs in for either Tim or Oberto, when Tim or Oberto returns, then Mahinmi subs in for the other). Hill subs in for Tony Parker. Either Tony or Tim is in at all times. Roger is is the starting line up still. Michael starts. Udoka subs in for Michael Finley off the bench.
    You know the Spurs would be averaging 110 if that happened, right? I'm hoping for

    1. Tim Duncan 24 ppg, 10 reb
    2. Tony Parker 24 ppg, 8 assists, 4 reb
    3. Roger Mason 14 ppg, 4 reb
    4. Michael Finley 14 ppg, 3 reb
    5. Ime Udoka 7 ppg 3 reb
    6. Oberto 7 ppg 4 reb
    9. Farmer 4 ppg
    10. Bonner 4 ppg 2 reb
    11. Thomas 2 ppg 1 reb


    too, but everyone else, who know?

    ... . Even what I cut and pasted gets 100 ppg, which I believe is possible, if they had more possesions. Fab should help in the rebound department. Then again, they couldn't do that with Manu, so I don't see it happening this year unless something just clicks.

  18. #68
    PRICELESS SPURS FAN polandprzem's Avatar
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    Is that possible LJ to read my PM to you?

    Or am I blocked somehow?

  19. #69
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    Here's my game review:

    The Spurs had the game won but missed a shot at the end. The Blazers celebrated like they just won the championship, only to lose to Phoenix the next night.

  20. #70
    Veteran Manufan909's Avatar
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    I think we'll stick to timvp's takes.

  21. #71
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    Unbelievable the Pop would continuously gamble on players with declining skills.
    Hasn't Pop usually gone the route of gambling on players with declining if not rapidly declining skills?

    Damon Stoudamire, Nick Van Exel, Terry Porter, Steve Smith, Michael Finley, soon to be Kurt Thomas, etc, and that's just off the top of my head.

    That's what Pop does. Steve Smith and Terry Porter fell all over themselves with bricks while Stephen Jackson was de-activated for the playoffs. Van Exel continuously getting minutes against Dallas when he was a disaster on both ends of the court. And so on and so on.

    That's just the Spurs way, isn't it?

  22. #72
    Remember Cherokee Parks The Truth #6's Avatar
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    Hasn't Pop usually gone the route of gambling on players with declining if not rapidly declining skills?

    Damon Stoudamire, Nick Van Exel, Terry Porter, Steve Smith, Michael Finley, soon to be Kurt Thomas, etc, and that's just off the top of my head.

    That's what Pop does. Steve Smith and Terry Porter fell all over themselves with bricks while Stephen Jackson was de-activated for the playoffs. Van Exel continuously getting minutes against Dallas when he was a disaster on both ends of the court. And so on and so on.

    That's just the Spurs way, isn't it?
    I think Pop sometimes doesn't realize that the human body, unlike a bottle of wine, doesn't always improve with age.

    Having SJax on the team at all is such an aberration given the context of what type of players we usually seek out.

  23. #73
    I'm poplovin' it! TJastal's Avatar
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    I think Pop sometimes doesn't realize that the human body, unlike a bottle of wine, doesn't always improve with age.

    Having SJax on the team at all is such an aberration given the context of what type of players we usually seek out.
    Nice analogy. =)

    I'm usually negative about Popovich too, but I've decided to go on hold right now to wait and see how the new players gel and contribute, I'm hoping Hill and Mahinmi can provide some youthful spark off the bench.

    Picking up Mason (whom I thought would be 1 dimensional, ie another Finley), was a very shrewd pickup, as he has proven to be a great all around player, and clutch too. Udoka was also a good pickup and is becoming an important cog in the spurs rotation.

    A successful team will have a good blend of youth and experienced veterans. Right now to start the season, the youthful elements are getting all the attention and making the most noise with fresh legs and monster jams. Later on however, the veterans and their experience will slowly assert themselves. Which I'm hoping that the spurs will have that right balance, and the odds fall to their favor the longer the season wears on barring injuries.

    So Pop has earned a reprieve from me for now for the development of Udoka, the pickup of Mason, and hopefully 1 or more of Hill / Mahinmi / Tolliver can show us something special.

  24. #74
    Mr. Dignity Solid D's Avatar
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    I'm a little late to come in this time, but nice game thoughts, timvp. Nice fresh look for 2008-09.

    I will just add a few observations about the Portland game. The first half had Duncan, Parker and Finley in double figures and the only other scorer was bench scorer Desmon Farmer. The 2nd quarter got away from the Spurs with the bench really not doing much of anything at either end of the floor. The Spurs were never able to close the separation the Blazers gained in the 2nd until the 4th quarter, where at just under the 10-minute mark of the 4th, the Spurs went small and stayed small with the exception of 1 trip at the end with KT coming for defense. Finley and Udoka played the 4 and by spreading the floor, TP, Vaughn and Mason were able to draw and kick to the open shooters.

    The shooting was phenomenal for both teams. The Spurs played soft on the pick and pops, in an attempt to cover the interior a bit more, and the Blazers made them pay. Roy and Aldridge were knocking down shots like there was nobody else on the floor. Even when the Spurs trapped Roy off the screen, Aldridge did the deed from long range on at least two trips. This was as good an all-around game as I've seen from LaMarcus Aldridge. His post footwork, lower body leverage, and turn to the baseline jumper were impressive. He looks stronger and his defense and physicality are much improved. His helpside shot-altering and rebounding seemed to feed the transition game. If I'm gushing a bit on him, it's not without merit.

    One other thing I'll mention about Mason and his offensive contributions to this team, thusfar. Roger showed some nice awareness and aggressiveness with dribble-drives and dribbling to open space for jumpshots. By awareness, I mean, he waited for the player at the top to rotate around and draw his man away from the middle, using a nice cross-over, between the legs move before starting his dribble drive. Mace has primarily been a catch and shoot player, much like Mike Finley....until this year. It seems Roger has stepped up and added that element to his game to provide what Manu always brings to the team.

    It will be good to get a look at this year's Spurs with Fab, Tolliver and Hill in the mix.

  25. #75
    Chopper Ed Helicopter Jones's Avatar
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    I, too, am late chiming in, but kudos to Timvp for another nice recap.

    I just have a couple of thoughts to add. For the second game in a row I noticed that Kurt Thomas just didn't add anything of value out there. As a big KT fan I was pretty disappointed. I'm wondering if he's still slowed by his injury out there. Even as a team, we just seemed to stagnate with KT on the floor.

    Bonner played a lot better than his game 1 I thought. When we have our full frontcourt I'm not going to feel as bad about those fouls of his. If he can play spot minutes and be really aggressive on defense and hit an open three, that's about all I think we can expect, or hope from him.

    Udoka impressed. I think we shouldn't be afraid of playing small ball with Udoka depending on the matchup. Our defense looked the best it looked all night when he was in the paint with Tim. He's not the fastest guy, but he's so strong that having him defend the post, especially in lieu of Bonner/Thomas is probably a good move.

    I, like Solid, am looking forward to see how Fabricio, Hill and Tolliver fit in.

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