Religion: Yes? No? Why?

[LnGrrrR]

I want to believe, but I cannot at this point.

You know, technically, if you don't believe you're already an atheist. Modern usage has tended to say that atheism = knows there's no god and agnostic = doesn't know, but doesn't believe, but that's not really accurate.

A is a prefix meaning 'without'. Theism = Belief, and Gnostic = Knowledge.

I am an agnostic atheist. I do not know if there is a god(s), but I do not believe in any. You can also be a gnostic theist (most religious people), agnostic theist (as bradlohaus seems to be) or gnostic atheist (think Richard Dawkins).

[Supergirl]

I am Jewish. I believe in G-d. I can't prove to you there is a G-d, and I don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible/Torah, but I believe there is a G-d. But I don't necessarily believe my G-d is different from the G-d lots of other people of different faiths believe in, we just come at it from different angles.

I am observantly Jewish, but not Orthodox. I belong to a Reform congregation, though Reform Judaism is not necessarily the branch that fits me best - maybe Reconstructionist is the answer to that.

I believe Israel should remain a Jewish state, but also a democracy, as it is currently. I also believe there should be a separate Palestinian state, but not until the leadership among the Palestinians separate themselves from the terrorist organizations in Gaza, Iran, Syria, Egypt, etc.

Philosophically, I find meaning and comfort in a wide variety of sources, inside Judaism and out to Eastern philosophers, Christian mystics, ancient Greeks, etc. But Judaism is where my home is, in part because that's where I was raised.

[fyatuk]

I always refuse to go into detail about my beliefs, but they key point is that there is a universal soul that all things contain a part of. Gods are manifestations of the will of that gods followers (facets of the universal soul).

I came to my set of beliefs after reading religious texts from several different religions (hindu, bhuddism, islam, christianity, several ancient religions) and discovering there are several consistent themes between them. My beliefs came from reconciling that with my christian upbringing.

[DarrinS]

Easy. The same way you don't believe in Santa.

Maybe if you get a large pile of steel, alloys, plastic, and rubber it will spontaneously form itself into an automobile.


This is what you'd have to believe if you think pools of carbon, water, etc. can spontaneously form a human being.

[DarrinS]

You'd also have to believe that you're quite lucky that you remember to breathe and keep your heart beating when you're asleep. It's also quite amazing luck that our cells know how to divide, pass on DNA, etc. What dumb luck, huh?

[JoeChalupa]

Yes, I believe in God and Jesus Christ.
Why? Because I choose to believe.

[I Love Me Some Me]

I am a Christian. I was born and raised in a pretty strict environment, and some pretty strict teachings. It was always "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" type of learning, with never any meat and potatoes behind it. Now, I certainly believe in the omnipotence of God, and if he says something, I should believe it. But, I also believe that a God who we believe to have intricately designed this world doesn't just say things because He's God, and He has the power to say and do whatever he wants. He says and does things because there are logistical, rational reasons behind them. As I've grown older, my hunger for knowledge has led me to search for those rational reasons. I've had luck finding some, and I am still struggling for others. I will never know all of His reasons, but I know that He has them, and I know they can be found (science has done as much).

People often reject Christianity, or religion in general, because of certain problems. But really, there is no neutral place to position yourself in philosophical space. There's nowhere you can turn in which you believe absolutely nothing and therefore don't take on some burden of proof about the position you hold. Everyone has to believe something. Even what appears to be a rejection of all beliefs is a belief. Everyone holds something to be true. Maybe your truth is that nothing else is true, but that is something you believe. Even agnostics and atheists have faith. Atheists believe there is no god (while not being able to prove as much) and agnostics believe that it is not possible to know things about God (while not being able to prove as much).

If you reject religion or Christianity, there is something else that you end up asserting by default. And if you're rejecting religion or Christianity because of it's problems (and it does have problems), then you are only embracing a different set of problems. Agnostics and atheists, especially, are never really forced to face the problems of what they believe, but those problems exist and if you want to challenge Christians (or other faiths) on their unknowns, then you should be willing to accept the challenge to answer your unknowns.

It's not a liability of a particular belief system to have unanswered questions. They all do. Christianity has unanswered questions (not as many as people think), and there are some that I struggle with. Not because of my lack of faith, but because of my aforementioned interest in knowledge and reason. Every world view has it's problems and unanswered questions.

But as I've searched for knowledge, the evidence has led me to believe even more in a single God, who created us and our universe with intricate design and care. It seems to me to be the more reasonable and rational explanation. If you take God out of the equation, then you are saying that everything comes from nothing, life comes from non-life, order comes from chaos, and natural law comes from randomness. And I'm not offering this as an argument for God's existence. I'm trying to put things in perspective when it comes to our belief systems. Some of the things you believe as an atheist or agnostic are just as extreme (if not more extreme) than the problems you think you're avoiding by rejecting the existence of God.

Now, it may be that everything came from nothing. It may be that life came from non-life. It may be that order came from chaos, and natural law came from randomness. But man...you sure do have to have a of a lot of faith to believe that kind of thing. It seems to be much more reasonable, given the evidence, that there is a God who is responsible for these things.

[101A]

I was born and raised as a devout Catholic; went to College, fell in love with and Married a Southern Baptist. At that point, I actually started reading and studying the Bible - something my Catholic upbringing DID NOT encourage.

Anyway we attend a Methodist church - a "contemporary" service.

I, of course, went through a period in College, like just about everybody, when I was convinced I was smarter than everybody else, and, that, obviously, religion is simply the opiate of the masses. There is NO proof of a God, and his existence is just so very convenient for the powers that be!!!! My "scientific, analytical" mind couldn't accept such ridiculousness. Well, that Baptist I married was also a DOUBLE MAJOR is Chemistry and Biology - and carried a 3.8. She later got a PhD. in Biochemistry and is one of the authors of this.

Anyway, if SHE could be believe in God and HER science certainly trumps mine, well, we had to talk about it. Basically, it's like Lohaus explained it; it takes more faith, frankly, to believe that ALL of this is a big, happy accident, than to believe there is a hand and intelligence guiding it. As my wife explains it is SO COOL how this stuff works - and she does research at the level that she is the FIRST PERSON to know things when she discovers them (kind of cool in itself if you think about it).

Why Christianity? Well, obviously where I was raised, and who I hang with, and who raised me are the primary driving factors for that. But beyond that, I experience affirmations of my choice in subtle ways all the time. Most of you Atheists and Agnostics won't believe them, or will laugh at what I consider them but that's fine - they are for me. Also, for those who claim "All Religions are the Same" - you obviously have not actually studied the various religions and read their books. The message of Jesus Christ in the New Testament is far different from any of the other codes of behavior prescribed by the various religious books.

[spurster]

I am a confused Christian. I'm quite impressed by the witness and the history of the NT. The vengeful God of the OT turns me off though. I am mystified by theology. Why would God need our belief? Why would God give us free will and then punish us for using it?

[JoeChalupa]

I was raised and still am Catholic and I attended BIBLE STUDY on a regular basis.

[101A]

I was raised and still am Catholic and I attended BIBLE STUDY on a regular basis.

That's why I said "My Catholic" upbringing - should have made it more clear; I have met plenty of Catholics since who are well versed in the bible.

[JoeChalupa]

That's why I said "My Catholic" upbringing - should have made it more clear; I have met plenty of Catholics since who are well versed in the bible.

I concur.

[angel_luv]

I live according to faith, not religion. In my experience, there is a huge difference.

Jesus Christ is the one and only Savior of the world.

God's Word- the Bible- is infallible. It is completely pure, holy, and eternally true.

My faith is constantly confirmed through the realities, consequences, and promises of the Bible proving in every cir stance to be absolutely true , not only in my life but also in the lives of people surrounding me and in the world.

[implacable44]

[QUOTE=MaryAnnKilledGinger;2894813]1. What do you believe?
2. Why do you believe it?

Let me say up front that I'm not looking to get into a debate on the existence or lack thereof of God/Jeusu/Allah/Whatever. I don't care about dueling Bible verses. I'm not seeking to question anyone's faith, debate their personal experiences, etc. I can't speak for others that might post in this thread, but I sincerely have no intent to challenge anyone's faith or lack of faith.

QUOTE]

1. I am Mormon - temple endowed and devout.
2. I grew up Mormon and that was my experience from birth. We had Family Home Evening - Church every Sunday and Mutual on Wednesday nights when I got older. When I was at Judson - everyone knew I was Mormon - I never have had a drop of alcohol in my life - no drugs, - no cigarettes - not even coffee or tea -- not a drop or a whiff. I didn't hook up with girls -- no sex. I did make-out - which translates to kissing and an occasional breast. But no genital contact. And for that I had to go see the Bishop. When I was 17, I remember a friend of mine gave me some anti-Mormon literature and I sat down with Howard Nicholas and asked him several questions. In all my 17 years I had never read the Book of Mormon -- I just went through the motions. I graduated Judson and instead of going to Texas Lutheran or Oklahoma State to play -- I chose to go to a small JC up in Rexburg because it was church sponsored and my sister's boyfriend was going. I went up to Rick and was on my own. I think I went to church 4 times while I was in Rexburg. Now - most mormons automatically go on missions for 2 years ( boys go at age 19 and girls at age 21)... I had no desire to go -I wanted to hoop. We were ranked #5 in the country and the football team was #3. Our locker rooms were adjacent and those dudes were always calling us girls etc... so we challenged them to a game of hoops / flag football / bowling contest.. First up was hoops - 2nd play of the game and I punched it on the LB Kevin Kempf and told him about it -- about 5 minutes later I got out on the break and went in for a leaning dunk over him again and he took my legs out and flipped me - broke my wrist. My girlfriend at the time was way into church so I spent time with her and went to church. I went home and decided I would go on a mission too. I had to read the Bible and The Book of Mormon before I would be allowed to go. I did. cover to cover. Wonderful books. I submitted my papers and 3 weeks later - I got the call to Vina del Mar Chile. I don't think I was fully converted when I left for my mission -- but during my mission I was converted through several different experiences and personal revelations. I went to every church I could while in CHile. Catholic, Jehovahs Witness, Methodist, Evangelical, Baptist, 7th Day adventist, Buddhist, etc.. I had talks with Atheists - church leaders from every religious organization - I read books. I prayed. I came home and transferred to the U to play ball there and the first class I enrolled in was World Religions. I took philosophy. At the end of the day for me -- I know what I feel. I know what I believe. Faith is funny because you can't prove it -- you can't prove it with science or the history of the church. You can't prove or disprove the existence of Diety with science - facts.. It is something you feel. And at the end of the day - when I die .. I am comfortable knowing that even if I was wrong in this life and Mormonism was not the way -- -that I lived according to what I believed and I was happy.

[baseline bum]

Maybe if you get a large pile of steel, alloys, plastic, and rubber it will spontaneously form itself into an automobile.


This is what you'd have to believe if you think pools of carbon, water, etc. can spontaneously form a human being.

I guess you were sleeping or jerking off in the bathroom when natural selection was taught in your biology class.

[101A]

I guess you were sleeping or jerking off in the bathroom when natural selection was taught in your biology class.

That's right.

Just wait a few billion years, and the large pile of steel, alloys, plastic, and rubber will select itself into an automobile, after it was first a submarine, then a boat, then a horse cart, etc....

[baseline bum]

That's right.

Just wait a few billion years, and the large pile of steel, alloys, plastic, and rubber will select itself into an automobile, after it was first a submarine, then a boat, then a horse cart, etc....

So does your wife also consider natural selection some extremely improbable process?

[baseline bum]

People often reject Christianity, or religion in general, because of certain problems. But really, there is no neutral place to position yourself in philosophical space. There's nowhere you can turn in which you believe absolutely nothing and therefore don't take on some burden of proof about the position you hold. Everyone has to believe something. Even what appears to be a rejection of all beliefs is a belief. Everyone holds something to be true. Maybe your truth is that nothing else is true, but that is something you believe. Even agnostics and atheists have faith. Atheists believe there is no god (while not being able to prove as much) and agnostics believe that it is not possible to know things about God (while not being able to prove as much).

This is ridiculous when believers try to bring atheists down to their level. Atheism isn't faith at all; it's rationalism. I hate when believers go to this kind of massively flawed logic that it's on the atheist to prove god's non-existence. You don't prove something is true by lack of counter-example, but theists are perfectly happy justifying their god by it. Most atheists do not have faith. Most atheists think god is unlikely as a rationalist will say about any other hypothesis supported by no evidence. The idea that my theory is correct because your contradictory theory is incomplete is nonsense.

[I Love Me Some Me]

This is ridiculous when believers try to bring atheists down to their level. Atheism isn't faith at all; it's rationalism. I hate when believers go to this kind of massively flawed logic that it's on the atheist to prove god's non-existence. You don't prove something is true by lack of counter-example, but theists are perfectly happy justifying their god by it. Most atheists do not have faith. Most atheists think god is unlikely as a rationalist will say about any other hypothesis supported by no evidence. The idea that my theory is correct because your contradictory theory is incomplete is nonsense.

Read. Comprehend. Then post.

I specifically stated that I wasn't making an argument for the existence of God. I was simply pointing out that there are problems and unknowns in every belief system. Are there not unknowns to the atheist? Why is there no burden of proof on their belief system, when they clearly believe in things that are not supported by any evidence of any kind? When you tell me it's not God, then you have a burden of proof to explain how something comes from nothing, how life comes from non-life, how order comes from chaos, and how natural law comes from randomness. Proof...not theory...proof. You don't have it, but you choose to believe anyway.

It's impossible to not believe in anything. Impossible.

[baseline bum]

Read. Comprehend. Then post.

I specifically stated that I wasn't making an argument for the existence of God. I was simply pointing out that there are problems and unknowns in every belief system. Are there not unknowns to the atheist? Why is there no burden of proof on their belief system, when they clearly believe in things that are not supported by any evidence of any kind? When you tell me it's not God, then you have a burden of proof to explain how something comes from nothing, how life comes from non-life, how order comes from chaos, and how natural law comes from randomness. Proof...not theory...proof. You don't have it, but you choose to believe anyway.

It's impossible to not believe in anything. Impossible.

Everything you asked is addressed in my post above.

[101A]

So does your wife also consider natural selection some extremely improbable process?

No. Natural Selection; espoused by Darwin as a way for animals to evolve most certainly occurs.

However, what put the process in motion is where we probably disagree.

Taking the ac ulation of raw parts as an example.

I can grant that they could evolve from a Submarine, to a Boat, to a Horse Cart, until they were eventually an automobile.

The problem I have, and you you cannot answer, is HOW they became a Submarine in the first place.

[baseline bum]

No. Natural Selection; espoused by Darwin as a way for animals to evolve most certainly occurs.

However, what put the process in motion is where we probably disagree.

Taking the ac ulation of raw parts as an example.

I can grant that they could evolve from a Submarine, to a Boat, to a Horse Cart, until they were eventually an automobile.

The problem I have, and you you cannot answer, is HOW they became a Submarine in the first place.

You can't answer it either. Painting god in such broad strokes so that it is by definition the answer isn't very convincing.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Everything you asked is addressed in my post above.

No it is not.

How did something come from nothing?

How did life come from non-life?

You may not know the answer, but you believe that science will ultimately tell us that it was natural cause.

[ploto]

I have never had a problem with having vantage points of both of a spiritual and a rational nature. It has never been a conflict to me. I approach religion and faith in one context with an entirely different view through which I view mathematics, for example. I have never asked religion to be science, and I have never asked science to be religion. They are two entirely different things. I do not read a work of literature within the guidelines of the rules of geometry; moreover, I do not view the meaning of life within the confines of rigid scientific thought.

It just has never seemed like a conflict to me because I do not try to make one into another. It is why I have no problem with saying that things in the Bible are not scientifically accurate and that in no way shatters my faith because the Bible is not a science book. It is a spiritual book and I believe the spiritual truths within it. In the same way, I do not expect my Calculus book to teach me about a meaning in life above and beyond myself.

I also do not believe that religious people have a monopoly on the truth; that they alone have moral standing; or that anyone has the right answers. I am most su ious of anyone who claims to have it all figured it out.

I also have faith in Christ, sometimes because of but quite often despite the behavior and words of those who act and speak in His name.

[101A]

This is ridiculous when believers try to bring atheists down to their level. Atheism isn't faith at all; it's rationalism. I hate when believers go to this kind of massively flawed logic that it's on the atheist to prove god's non-existence. You don't prove something is true by lack of counter-example, but theists are perfectly happy justifying their god by it. Most atheists do not have faith. Most atheists think god is unlikely as a rationalist will say about any other hypothesis supported by no evidence. The idea that my theory is correct because your contradictory theory is incomplete is nonsense.

That's not what he said.

He said your theory is JUST as incomplete as his.