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In a lab, many many times. Google Abiogenesis.
You're proposing that we'll never be able to determine what causes those things, and stating that as a fact. I'll say it's an opinion, just as good as anyones'. Actually, I think we came a long way on one of those (life), and I think what precludes us to know more about disasters is the sheer amount of data we would need to have at hand to study them.
In a lab, many many times. Google Abiogenesis.
Why does a god or a "higher power" or whatever and evolution have to be mutually exclusive?
To me, the power or force or whatever that causes a chromosome to replicate is what I call "god".
For the record, I don't believe there's a man with a white beard sitting on a throne in the clouds.
Your opinion is certainly welcome, and I'm not going to argue with you about it, but I think it's interesting what you posted above, because Earth didn't look anything like it looks like today many million years ago, before there was life in it.
That's when Earth was in its IDEAL state. Humans suck.
Sincerely,
The Environmentalist Movement
I was going to point out that at the very least we've managed simple proteins (IIRC) from inorganic material, which shows it's at least possible. That was back when I was in high school and I've made no effort to keep up to date.
Organic material does not life make.
The instant I die, EVERY SINGLE thing necessary for life will be present and accounted for - but I won't be.
I'm familiar, as I am with the Miller–Urey experiments, which have proven to be less and less significant as time and further research goes on.
If this is all you need as evidence, you are pretty easy to please.
No I am proposing that as long as those things occur that there will always be people that believe in some type of celestial being. I am not saying that science won't come up with ideas as to why these things happen I am just saying that people are always going to be in awe of certain events and attribute them to a higher power.
As long as we have those people, religion will not go away and that is a fact.
Oh.
You mean the one that says this:
From organic molecules to protocells
The question "How do simple organic molecules form a protocell?" is largely unanswered but there are many hypotheses.
That you don't give it the importance it deserves it's a different story altogether. It's a verifiable experiment that shows you can create organic elements from non-organic parts. This factually refutes one of the claims that life could not have come from non-life. If the basic ingredients of life can be created by non-life components, then we have the first stone of our building. Right now this experiment have triggered further theories on how those components have merged together into RNA/DNA. That combination has only been done in a lab these days, as we discussed with another forum member here, but I think as more research is done, we'll figure out exactly which one of the theories is correct.
Not entirely true...
Man's explicit micro-management of such experiments invalidates the notion that the processes in question can occur naturally without his interference.
But given our previous discussion on that very element.... you and I will never see eye to eye on that one... In fact you skirted this particular point three times... choosing instead to suggest that it was possible that somewhere in our universe we would find planets with "man-made" chemicals/plastics. While 'possible', that notion is rather inplausible... I mean, it would be wishful thinking to suggest that chemicals created by man's own creative intellect - ones with no natural equivalent... can be duplicated by random acts of nature.
We don't know how it happened without human intervention. Doesn't mean we don't know or have not built protocells from organic molecules.
You can ask Phenomanul right here in this very forum. Even if we don't agree on wether this could have been a natural occurrence or not, we certainly agree that we know how to do it.
I know we don't agree. You probably could not naturally reproduce the Miller-Urey experiment in today's Earth. The reality is that the Earth didn't look like today million years ago. And that the importance of the Miller-Urey experiment is so great is because it fits with the description of what the Earth looked like way back when.
This statement is a gross oversimplification. My disillusionment with religious ins utes comes from spite at organized power grabs by people looking to push their dogma on everyone. If you consider it small-minded and hateful to have extreme quarrels with the religious right pushing their religion in kids' science classes, a place where people are supposed to learn skepticism and formation of theories based on hard evidence and not faith or feelings, then there's really nothing I can say to you. If you think I'm arrogant because I say the church is full of it when they profess to know the answers to all of the big questions, so be it. But religion has an incredibly checkered history, and it's not doing too well in the present when you have people like Bush saying he invaded Iraq because god told him to do it and you have muslim extremists killing so they can be sent to a martyr's paradise not unlike the one promised to every faithful Christian by the bible. Religion is big business, and preys on people's greatest hopes and fears to make money. There's Oral Roberts threatening to kill himself if his flock didn't donate $8 million. There's L Ron Hubbard writing a book to get tax-exempt status for his blackmail of Hollywood actors who reveal their biggest skeletons to his church at their weakest moments. There's that s bag Hagee here who lives like a Persian king on the money he raises from the suckers who phone him in. Jim Bakker. Ted Haggard. The Taliban. George Bush. Osama Bin Laden. This is the face of religion. Religion is the abstraction of the idea of "believe me because I say so".
My atheism comes from the lack of evidence to support the existence of a god. Logic dictates that a valid argument can still be correctly used to reach any conclusion if it is based on a false premise. Technically, a valid argument can establish an arbitrary conclusion if an assumption going in is unsound. Hence, muslim extremists can easily argue that their suicide bombings are the most honorable actions they could ever do. Christians can convince themselves it is honorable to deny civil rights to gays because the book says they're sinners. Back on point, I cannot accept the idea of a supernatural god on the idea that physical evidence isn't needed for something entirely supernatural. It makes no sense to believe something that cannot be reasonably shown to be true, as this throws knowledge into chaos.
Anyways, it's a matter of perspective....
Most will see in such experiments only what their world view allows them to see.
As interesting as this subject has always been for me, I don't have the time to discuss it on end (it makes me rather unproductive at work and at home)....
I know. We just have different views on this. Nothing wrong with that, and this thread is certainly not for that.
it sounds like youre more of a nihilist. not all believers use religion as a weapon and to make money. the assholes do, and i think all people should speak out against them. thats where the word antichrist is born from - people who claim to be prophets and try to use religion in a profitable way. i cringe when i see infomercials trying to sell crosses. it really pisses me off. ive also had people tell me before that i was going to if i didnt convert to their beliefs. i just ignore them and move on. im not going to change my own opinion about a higher power if everyone else is pissing on the concept.
Well said...I'm pretty much the same way. But on the other hand...I fully understand why some people are religious. There are passages in every scripture that do speak to some innermost feelings of people. But I put them on the same level as hearing a really good song with really strong lyrics. To me the same feelings I would feel reading a passage in Psalms is the same feeling I get hearing Don't Let Me Down by The Beatles.
P.S. You forgot to include Meir Kahane in your list of religious nuts.
Well, I do agree that certain people are way too attached to their religious beliefs. I also think it helps some of that people in a good way. Psychology has taken a portion of that clientèle away. And I'm sure as generations go by, and we become more knowledgeable in social behavior, we'll see the power of religion as a social tool dwindle. Obviously, this is just my opinion.
God, somewhat, Religion, no.
I don't like being told how to believe or who to believe in.
Yet God can spontaneously create himself? A being with the power to know all, do all, and yet he cares about us intricately?
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