Military Veterans Push for Repeal of 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'

[Clandestino]

Let them serve and be open about their gayness. However, the military is held to a higher standard, so no pdas from them on base.

ALso, I had some friends who went on a vacation together... All dudes went to Rome for the weekend, like 6. 2 dudes went up the room together first, said they were tired... well, guess ing what??? when the other dudes went to go with them and wake them up for some more drinking... the 4 guys got the suprise of their life seeing their two buddies naked together!!!

[Drachen]

Bull . So women who don't like men/women staring at them in a sexual manner should just deal with it? Same with men.

The quickness to go to bat for one side while totally overlooking concerns for the other is short sighted and stupid. This isn't about intolerance or not accepting another's differences, this is about your rights as a person and what you should and shouldn't have to subject yourself to.

Showering with people who are not attracted to your sex is very different than showering with people who are attracted to your sex. I would like to hear a gay person’s view on the subject. I’m sure it wouldn’t be easy to shower with someone who you know and are attracted to but doesn’t share the feelings.

Ok, as I said before when the US society as a whole has integrated such facilities for men/women then we can discuss such integration in the military. I mean, this works in other societies (I am not just talking third world countries here, Iceland has unisex bathrooms for example), so there is no reason to think that eventually, if we saw a benefit we would work towards that end. Currently, though, that has not happened, but since the actual topic of this conversation is gays in the military and such intigration has already happened this is a non-issue. Yes I am going to bat for one side and dismissing the irrational views of the other. I personally would hate to have to shower in a room with a bunch of other men, this is irrational because a shower is an apparatus to clean myself. But, now according to you
the precedent should be that I get my own personal shower stall. While we are at it, I dont like sleeping on a single matress, could you stock the barracks with queen sized bunk beds?

Also, shouldn't we have seperate airforce bases for men and women? I mean what if some women got offended by the men checking them out, or god forbid a man get offended by a woman who likes a man in uniform. Maybe we should send them to different areas, we have two wars going on. One could be the Man's war and the other the Woman's war.

[Jelly]

We also don't force men and women to use the same shower facilities and bedroom accommodations.

If we are to allow gays to openly serve, we may as well have men and women using the same open shower facilities and barracks.

This is the root of the problem. Sexual harassment and violence can be dealt with the same way it already is.

Just like some women would be abhorred by sharing a shower facility with men, some men are abhorred for a man who may be turned on by him, to see him naked.

This is the clearest problem. Not the only one. I get tired of re-arguing these same arguments over and over. Why cannot the advocates understand this concern?

When public nudity becomes commonly accepted in the USA, then we can have soldiers sharing such facilities.

Anyone who uses the locker room facilities at their sports club or gym has been naked around someone of the same sex. It's no big deal.

[Drachen]

Ok, I gotta leave, I may be back later. See yall!

[romad_20]

Ok, as I said before when the US society as a whole has integrated such facilities for men/women then we can discuss such integration in the military. I mean, this works in other societies (I am not just talking third world countries here, Iceland has unisex bathrooms for example), so there is no reason to think that eventually, if we saw a benefit we would work towards that end. Currently, though, that has not happened, but since the actual topic of this conversation is gays in the military and such intigration has already happened this is a non-issue. Yes I am going to bat for one side and dismissing the irrational views of the other. I personally would hate to have to shower in a room with a bunch of other men, this is irrational because a shower is an apparatus to clean myself. But, now according to you
the precedent should be that I get my own personal shower stall. While we are at it, I dont like sleeping on a single matress, could you stock the barracks with queen sized bunk beds?

Also, shouldn't we have seperate airforce bases for men and women? I mean what if some women got offended by the men checking them out, or god forbid a man get offended by a woman who likes a man in uniform. Maybe we should send them to different areas, we have two wars going on. One could be the Man's war and the other the Woman's war.

Your arguments are not even close to what I'm talking about. We're talking about being nude with others that are attracted to you or that you are attracted to, not about comfort levels in the barracks. Have you even thought about it from the side of the gay person? Maybe they don't want to be put in that situation??????

[romad_20]

Anyone who uses the locker room facilities at their sports club or gym has been naked around someone of the same sex. It's no big deal.

You don't live with those people 24 hrs a day (we're talking about boot camp, exercises and war here. The military does not require everyone to shower with each other during normal work weeks ) Totally different situations.

[Wild Cobra]

Anyone who uses the locker room facilities at their sports club or gym has been naked around someone of the same sex. It's no big deal.

You have a choice to be in that environment. It's no big deal to me either. In fact, I'm a nudist and go to the nude beaches in the area. I see some rather irritating stuff going on at times. I just ignore it myself.

I think the military see it this way. Since soldiers do not have such a choice, they lose more potential enlistees who will not serve in such an environment vs. how many gays they would attract. Being a volunteer service, they don't want to lose recruitment numbers.

It doesn't matter what you or I believe. It matters how many people it affects. Until sentiments change, accept the facts.

Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.

[LnGrrrR]

Very true, but its going to be hard to not live a double life if you choose to "stay silent" on the issue. There is no real separation between personal and professional life in the military (the main reason I left) Just more things to consider when thinking about the siuation.

True, but they can always get orders, or move to a new shop.

[LnGrrrR]

Call it what you want. You cannot simply ignore the fact that this would be required in the name of equality.

Are you in favor or removing the only privacy male and female military members have living in the barracks?

Privacy my ass! Have you ever had to shower in a dormitory barracks? It's uncomfortable, even if everyone in the shower is as straight as a ruler.

[LnGrrrR]

Given that gay men and women have been showering with their heterosexual kin since junior high school in America, I see this as a non-issue, really. That said, are there really one big room showers in widespread use anymore as opposed to those semi-stall ones?

When I went through basic in 99, it was a 'big stall' and probably still is. That's the only one I can think of. On-base and overseas locations I've been to it's the 'semi-stall'.

[LnGrrrR]

Showering with people who are not attracted to your sex is very different than showering with people who are attracted to your sex. I would like to hear a gay person’s view on the subject. I’m sure it wouldn’t be easy to shower with someone who you know and are attracted to but doesn’t share the feelings.

But they're ALREADY SHOWERING with these people. So it should make no difference.

Again, to reiterate, GAY PEOPLE ALREADY SHOWER WITH STRAIGHT PEOPLE IN THESE SITUATIONS.

[romad_20]

But they're ALREADY SHOWERING with these people. So it should make no difference.

Again, to reiterate, GAY PEOPLE ALREADY SHOWER WITH STRAIGHT PEOPLE IN THESE SITUATIONS.

I CAN READ YOUR CAPS. Gay people are currently under the don't ask don't tell policy. Can you not see how this would change if you were allowed to be openly gay and serve? Can we not see the difference?

[LnGrrrR]

I CAN READ YOUR CAPS. Gay people are currently under the don't ask don't tell policy. Can you not see how this would change if you were allowed to be openly gay and serve? Can we not see the difference?

Yes, it would change. How long do you think the military should wait to integrate?

Historically, the military has been ahead of the curve in many civil rights causes. Who were the first blacks to be freed? Those freed by the Emancipation Proclamation, which allowed them to join the service during the Civil War. When did blacks become integrated in the military? 1948, six years before Brown v Board of Education outlawed separate but equal.

As for some ideas of how many people now support allowing open gays in the military, here's some links for you.

From Pew, on increased acceptance of gays in military: http://people-press.org/report/273/l...litary-service

From militarytimes.com, on how there is no empirical evidence that allowing gays to serve has any noticeable detrimental effect: http://www.militarytimes.com/news/20...litary_070708/

From militarytimes.com, an article stating that over 500 troops are serving while openly gay without yet being discharged: http://www.militarytimes.com/news/20...troops_080108/

From ABCNews, a poll showing that nearly every major group is in the majority for supporting openly gay soldiers: http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/Po...5387980&page=1

Finally, from Zogby, a poll showing that the majority of troops are fine with openly gay soldiers: http://www.logoonline.com/news/story...entTypeID=1299

All the evidence shows that a majority of people are for allowing openly gay soldiers to serve.

[Wild Cobra]

Yes, it would change. How long do you think the military should wait to integrate?

Historically, the military has been ahead of the curve in many civil rights causes. Who were the first blacks to be freed? Those freed by the Emancipation Proclamation, which allowed them to join the service during the Civil War. When did blacks become integrated in the military? 1948, six years before Brown v Board of Education outlawed separate but equal.

As for some ideas of how many people now support allowing open gays in the military, here's some links for you.

From Pew, on increased acceptance of gays in military: http://people-press.org/report/273/l...litary-service

From militarytimes.com, on how there is no empirical evidence that allowing gays to serve has any noticeable detrimental effect: http://www.militarytimes.com/news/20...litary_070708/

From militarytimes.com, an article stating that over 500 troops are serving while openly gay without yet being discharged: http://www.militarytimes.com/news/20...troops_080108/

From ABCNews, a poll showing that nearly every major group is in the majority for supporting openly gay soldiers: http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/Po...5387980&page=1

Finally, from Zogby, a poll showing that the majority of troops are fine with openly gay soldiers: http://www.logoonline.com/news/story...entTypeID=1299

All the evidence shows that a majority of people are for allowing openly gay soldiers to serve.

If all this is true, then maybe it's time to dissolve the policy. As long as it solves more problems than it creates, I have no problem with it.

[sook]

, i can't imagine being in combat next to a .

He can take his filthy sinning ass somewhere else tbh.

[kwhitegocubs]

So, I just want to hear from someone - sook is a troll right?

[jochhejaam]

, i can't imagine being in combat next to a .

He can take his filthy sinning ass somewhere else tbh.

sook, are you a Christian?

[jochhejaam]

So, I just want to hear from someone - sook is a troll right?

Irrational for sure.

[romad_20]

Yes, it would change. How long do you think the military should wait to integrate?

Have you even read what I've posted? I think they should intergrate as soon as possible. I stated several times in this thread that I do think they should take the time to have education on tolerance in place in basic training and they should have set rules on punishment. So however long that takes. Doing something right the first time is so much easier than quickly making a decision and cleaning up the mess from it after.

What i've been taking about for the last page was a single issue, showering with people who are attracted to your sex (in basic training, exercises and in the field) That would be a by-product of allowing gays to openly serve. Is it not an issue that should be addressed?

What if the showering thing was the only reason they haven't done it already??

[romad_20]

So, I just want to hear from someone - sook is a troll right?

God, I hope so I think he's just another gay-bashing troll.

[Drachen]

Your arguments are not even close to what I'm talking about. We're talking about being nude with others that are attracted to you or that you are attracted to, not about comfort levels in the barracks. Have you even thought about it from the side of the gay person? Maybe they don't want to be put in that situation??????

You are talking about comfort levels, you said that someone may be uncomfortable showering with a sexual of the same sex. What is the difference in someone gawking at you in an inappropriate manner whether you are nude or not, the military already has sexual harassment policies to address exactly what you are describing. As far as "maybe the gay people don't want to be put in that situation," I have indisputable proof that they do. Gay people are getting kicked out of the military all the time, meaning that there are gay people in the military, and seeing as we haven't ins uted a draft in a few decades, those gay people chose to put themselves there.

[Drachen]

Have you even read what I've posted? I think they should intergrate as soon as possible. I stated several times in this thread that I do think they should take the time to have education on tolerance in place in basic training and they should have set rules on punishment. So however long that takes. Doing something right the first time is so much easier than quickly making a decision and cleaning up the mess from it after.

What i've been taking about for the last page was a single issue, showering with people who are attracted to your sex (in basic training, exercises and in the field) That would be a by-product of allowing gays to openly serve. Is it not an issue that should be addressed?

What if the showering thing was the only reason they haven't done it already??

lol
Well then what the are we arguing about, I have already stated that I agreed with you about the mandatory education in boot camp and for those already in the service and it should take place as soon as possible. DOH!

[romad_20]

lol
Well then what the are we arguing about, I have already stated that I agreed with you about the mandatory education in boot camp and for those already in the service and it should take place as soon as possible. DOH!

Looks like what Obama is thinking, as well

A transition office spokesman refused to comment for this story but two months ago, Obama signaled he would move cautiously, telling the Philadelphia Gay News newspaper he would first get the military on board:

"Although I have consistently said I would repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell, I believe that the way to do it is to make sure that we are working through processes, getting the Joint Chiefs of Staff clear in terms of what our priorities are going to be," he said.

[DarkReign]

Killing without consent is awful, and when you kill anyone anywhere without their consent you take their liberty. So whether it's on a battle field, or outside of a bar where a gay kid gets tortured and beaten to death, it's still a negative.

Gays are persecuted everywhere, and to think that gays aren't persecuted in the military as it stands now is to lie to oneself. The amount of persecution may rise in the beginning, but it most likely would calm. Just because being open about being gay isn't advocated, doesn't mean knowing someone is gay and persecuting them isn't possible. (Friendly fire on those perceived as gay may already exist. Violence against those thought to be gay may already exist.)

But to say you shouldn't have a say in it because you're not apart of the military is not something I agree with. To have a hands off approach to this matter is something that will only perpetuate the current status quo. To say someone can't be proud of who they are because of fear of violence is absurd. It's everywhere. It's at school, the office, the bar, on the sports teams etc. In all these places, like the military, the threat of death and violence is present, and possible.

I can definitely see what youre saying, but persecution at school/work/the bar is far different from persecution on a battlefield.

People at work arent required to carry M16 rifles and know how to use them.

So if youre OK with the infrequent killing of sexuals by phobic re s in the military in the name of personal liberty and freedom, thats fine.

Again, I have no vested interest in this matter. There is a reason there are two lives to live in this country. Civilian or Military.

Military Life does not guarantee you Civilian rights (freedom of speech, press, etc). So by no means am I saying our gay servicemen and women dont have the right to be open and candid, my only point is they may or may not be endangering their well-being far beyond the danger they may experience in a civilian setting.

But again, I have no facts and no real desire to seek out the answers to this quandry. Its just my opinion, an opinion of "be careful what you wish for", an opinion that may very well be wrong on every account. Honestly, I hope to that I am wrong in every aspect, seriously.

[LnGrrrR]

Romad, I favor a all-at-once policy. Sure, include training during basic. But I would just drop the DADT policy all over the service, at once.

I think the excuse about showering is as weak as the excuse about people once being uncomfortable around mixed races too. As stated, there are policies to deal with sexual harassment, so I don't see any reason that wouldn't apply.

Honestly, the pros far outweight the cons. If showering is the only reason, it's a poor one.

Also, I spoke wrong in my last post. According to the poll, http://www.zogby.com/CSSMM_Report-Final.pdf a majority do not favor putting gays in the military. However, nearly half believe a gay person is already in their unit, and about 3/4 are comfortable with gays/lesbians serving openly in the military. Also, a large majority said it wouldn't have changed their entrance into the military.