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All I know is that both Thomas and Fab need to step up their rebounding and quit relying on Tim to do all the rebounding.
I'm just curious how you average nearly 9 boards a game period in the NBA, especially in 25mins, and not be considered an above average rebounder. And that was only last season.
He needs to step up his game is all.
All I know is that both Thomas and Fab need to step up their rebounding and quit relying on Tim to do all the rebounding.
and long arms too
...which is why HE has no excuse for his poor rebounding effort. None of the bigs do.
Earlier I gave an obvious example of Rodman, as a player that utilized his smarts, technique and positioning, moreso than athleticism. I'll give you a less obvious example - former Washington Bullets center, Wes Unseld. Unseld was hardly athletic. In fact, he was about as gravity-challenged as any center in NBA history - not to mention being short, at 6'7". Yet the guy averaged 14 rebs per game over 13 years! Charles Barkley averaged 11.5 over his 16-yr career - and he was no more than 6'4".
Again, I say that rebounding is about positioning, heart, effort and desire, moreso than fabulous athleticism. It sure helps, but smart players can get by without it.
On another note, ever since D-Rob retired, I've always wanted Duncan to have another player on the backline to help him patrol the paint. That ideal player for me is Marcus Camby, who still rebounds and blocks shots, at an alarming rate for a player in his early 30's.
Last edited by SenorSpur; 11-19-2008 at 02:42 PM.
Basically Kurt Thomas is going to have to step it up and hopefully Ian will be able to contribute, especially on the offensive glass.
Good post Senor
You are wise, Senor...
Guards does not fight for the same rebounds.
nice english
Here's a look at each of the bigs rebounding number with this year compared to last year and the percentage drop in production:
Fabricio Oberto 6.6 10.4 -36.5%
Kurt Thomas 9.0 12.8 -29.7%
Tim Duncan 10.7 13.3 -19.9%
Matt Bonner 8.7 9.0 -3.3%
Rebounding is down across the board. Oberto is the biggest culprit. 6.6 rebounds per 40 minutes will simply not get it done as a big in the NBA. Thomas and Duncan are both down pretty significantly.
Bonner isn't down as much but 8.7 is low for an NBA big. His percent drop is helped because he didn't rebound well last year either. He needs to get that up to around 10 or at least where it was his first year with the Spurs.
Shaq only had one rebound in Phoenix vs Utah game last night.It happens.
What are your thoughts for Duncan's decline? (Sorry if you've answered this somewhere that I missed).
Well Mo I think its pretty easy to say. On most nights our bigs are gonna get out rebounded by the other point guards as well. Ill never be happy until both Fab and Kurt are off the team. And it would be even nicer if they got kicked or traded while Timmy is still here. It would be nice to see another Real big play next to Tim this season.
I bet Tim also would like a real Big to play next to. Its sad to say, but Rasho was the last real center Tim played next to.
I'm as critical as they come, but they've just won 3 in a row with these scrubs getting a bunch of playing time. Cut them some slack, eh? And for what it's worth, the player I've seen get boarded on the most this year has been Duncan. Hurts me to say it. But , he's still playing really well, and they're winning... who cares. A W is a W. Once they start losing games, then I'll be right there talking on them with you.
No one is disparging the accomplishment of winning 3 games in a row. Just because the team is on a winning streak, doesn't mean everything is perfect either. There's no question that rebounding is down. That is a fact and has nothing to do with Manu or TPs injuries. Any average Spurs fan, who is watching the game, can see that. The supporting cast of bigmen MUST pickup their effort if the Spurs are to their track of success.
Another thing, last time I checked, it's the same bigs that were playing last season (sans Horry). Again, which makes the dropoff inexcusable. We're all hopeful that Ian will provide much-needed relief. Until then, all the bigs need to collectively "step up" their effort and help Duncan.
Last edited by SenorSpur; 11-19-2008 at 03:43 PM.
Spoken like a true fan.
I am just pointing out the Spurs rebounding issues. I find it hard to believe that Fab grabs zero rebounds in about 15 minutes and Thomas only two.
The decline is reflected more in the offensive rebounding for the Spurs and their opponents. The Spurs are averaging close to the same numbers in defensive rebounds, but they are almost 2 offensive rebounds/game fewer than last season. Their opponents are 1 offensive reb./game higher than last season but I think Andrew Bogut is responsible for some of that skew with 7 ORBs in that loss. He almost single-handedly beat the Spurs with 2nd chances. Przybilla and Fernandez had 4 apiece in the Blazers' squeeker and Kaman and Camby almost did the same last night. Those 2nd chance points from ORBs have made the difference in a 5-5 record and a 7-3 record. At least the Spurs have cut down on the opponents' transition scoring the past 5 games. Defensively, much better allowing 105 ppg in the first 5 games and 81 ppg in the last 5 games.
2007-08.....OR...DR...Total
Spurs........9.4 31.9 41.3
Opponents 9.5 30.8 40.3
2008-09.....OR...DR...Total
Spurs........ 7.7 31.2 38.9
Opponents 10.6 32.1 42.7
Last edited by Solid D; 11-19-2008 at 04:16 PM.
So far Pop hasnt really given Fab or Kurt the amount of minutes a starter would get. They seem to be splitting up the game inbetween them. Pop throws in AT and Bonner from time to time and depends on 3 point shooting. It all has todo with Manu and now TP. Thou, sometimes I dont like some of the moves Pop makes. He is trying to win with what he has. And right now Fab and Kurt dont seem to be part of that mixture of winning games. Yes they are on the court. But neither one is playing like last season. They just dont seem to have a role for a Center with this current roster. Kinda looks like they play about 15-20 mins per game. But they're only there to make sure we have 5 guys on the court. It will be nice if and when Ian comes back so that the FO can start working on that area. They seem to have Manu and TPs area running on the right track. All thats left imo is putting the bigs into their places and blending in their minutes.
MrSpurs, you've said something publically that will admit to thinking about privately. The diminished production we're getting out of the tandem of KT and Fab is putting an extreme burden on Tim. This comes at a time where he's already playing a lot of minutes and virtually carrying the offense, backline defense and rebounding. This shouldn't be the case.
I've often watched and wondered how great it would be if there was another above-average, veteran, big to play alongside Tim, like a Marcus Camby. I know, keep dreamin', right. Diminished production from key rotation players is a burden to the superstar players on this team. KT and Fab, at this point in their careers, can't contribute enough in a way to offset Duncan. If this is as good as it gets from KT and Fab and they're production does not improve, then they really shouldn't have a place on the team. Of course, we know the reality is that contractual situations dictate otherwise. Unfortunately, they're gonna be here.
It may not seem like Fab and Kurt have a role if you look at their numbers.... but they do have a role:
Play team defense, rebound, and set lots of screens...ball screens, back screens, down screens, cross screens, you get the idea. That's how the shooters get space. The only part of their role they are not fulfilling well is rebounding. However, the Spurs DO have a role for a Center besides Tim.
Those intangibles are very important - even though they don't show up in the box score. That said, I would still argue that rebounding (especially on the defensive end) is just as important. The Spurs are giving the opposition way to many 2nd chance points and extra possessions.
Very good thoughts
Looking individually, it appears as if any shortcomings on the defensive glass are due largely to the drop in production from Oberto and Duncan.
Defensive rebounds per 40 minutes this season v last season and percentage difference
Oberto - 4.3 v 6.8 -36.8%
Duncan - 7.7 v 9.8 -21.4%
Thomas - 7.1 v 7.7 -7.8%
Bonner - 7 v 6.4 +9.4
The good news, as you pointed out, is that the overall rebounding problem isn't as dire as it appears at first glance. Offensive rebounding has never been an important aspect of the Spurs' attack and should rise as the season progresses due to variance alone.
To answer duncan228's question, I think a lot of Duncan's rebounding "problems" can be attributed to the fact that he's garnering a lot more attention right now. When he's continually posting up offensively, it's more difficult to grab offensive rebounds. Usually when TP or Manu is creating off the dribble, Duncan can get into position to fight for offensive rebounds.
Even on the defensive end, teams know where Duncan is at all times and they are putting a body on him to keep him off the boards. Once the other bigs pick up the slack rebounding wise and TP and Manu return to quicken the overall pace of games, more defensive rebounding opportunities will arise for Duncan.
Plus, the slippage from Duncan can also be explained somewhat by considering that he has to put in extra effort into so many other areas of the game so he can't pay as much attention to grabbing rebounds as normal. The good news is I don't see any physical reason causing the dip in rebounding.
If Pop gets a wild hair and decides to implement the new-rage Dribble Drive motion offense for the majority of his sets, then Fab and KT would have minimal roles. Otherwise, there is still a need for screen-setter types.
timvp, I think that Timmy is doing what he can to defend the paint and maybe forsaking rebounding position, in doing so. Also, the Spurs seem to be more concerned about not giving up points in transition, so they are getting back - perhaps even a bit prematurely right now. Just a thought.
Thanks for the perspective timvp. Your logic always helps things look clearer.
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