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http://www.cnsnews.com/public/conten...x?RsrcID=39499Is it right to tax the average worker making $28.50 to bailout workers whose labor cost is over $73 an hour?”
If you ship this country's jobs to Mexico, you lose the right to come put your hand out and beg for help from the same taxpayers you screwed over.
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/conten...x?RsrcID=39499Is it right to tax the average worker making $28.50 to bailout workers whose labor cost is over $73 an hour?”
you want them to change your diapers to?
If anyone should be bailing out the auto industry it should be the Oil companies. They have laid in bed with them for many years turning a blind eye to fuel economy and pumped out all of those 9mpg suv's.
If they collapse so be it, let someone else scoop them up and restrucutre them, even if its Toyota. Businesses fail all the time, why should they get a get out of jail free car? Just because they have been around for a long time?
"They have been steadily losing money for a generation. Their predicament has nothing to do with today's credit crunch or the stock market crash. It has to do with their being incorrigible foul-ups. Their record for money-losing is beyond comprehension. David Yermack, professor of finance at New York University's Stern School of Business, has calculated how much capital the car companies have destroyed over the last few decades.
He writes, "General Motors and Ford...between them...destroyed $110 billion in capital between 1980 and 1990.... GM has invested $310 billion in its business between 1998 and 2007. The total depreciation of GM's physical plant during this period was $128 billion, meaning that a net $182 billion of society's capital has been pumped into GM over the past decade -- a waste of about $1.5 billion per month of national savings. The story at Ford has not been as adverse but is still disheartening, as Ford has invested $155 billion and consumed $8 billion net of depreciation since 1998. As a society, we have very little to show for this $465 billion."
http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/107789
we will pay regardless, either it's bailing them out, or it's paying through higher taxes to help out the people left unemployed and uninsured. It's silly that some of you think that the collapse of these 3 will not affect you at all
I guess nobody understands that the estimated 3,000,000 people that will lose their jobs will now be collecting unemployment, and the million or so other folks that were receiving pensions and benefits now will apply for other government services funded by YOU.
And the banks that were just bailed out..where do you think a large portion of their profit comes from? Car loans
and you think Toyota and Honda are good and cheap now? wait until they have no compe ion and their prices tags skyrocket, and quality goes down once their workers start demanding higher wages.
The point I made in another thread is that its going to be more expensive to let them fail and people don't realize that. Its a rock and a hard place situation and someone needs to make some correct judgement as to which way is the best to take.
I'm going to admit the the audacity of these ers to show up in private jets really pissed me off yesterday.
it's also funny to see government officials scold business men about not running a business properly- if this country were a business it would have failed about 50 times by now
Say what you will, but I think right now an 8 year old with a lemonade stand has a right to scold these ers.
It's their lifestyle and that is part of the problem- it's not just their CEO's, it's every CEO. They don't know struggle. They have lived the life way too long to see the other side.
That said, I'm for dismissing the CEO's but what does that solve? GM has very favorable deals with the Unions that will start in a year and a half, that is a big step, but they can't get to that point the way things are right now.
I honestly don't know what to do, it's not my job, I'm just not one of those people that sees "bailout" and "$25 billion" and instantly revolt against it. If 3,000,000 more jobs are lost, it will just spiral down into EVERY single sector in this country. People I guess can't understand that. These people are just like you and I. They eat out, they buy Christmas gifts- everything. You think times are tough now... if these companies fail you will see giant companies go under that you never saw coming.
"It's silly that some of you think that the collapse of these 3 will not affect you at all"
The Treasury would be creating money, at it is for the financial sector robbery, selling debt to foreigners (if it can). The interest, in real money, must be paid(exported) on time, no defaulting, or the foreigners would not buy the debt in the first place.
Same story with the bogus GWOT, which is totally financed by debt, not by raising taxes.
The Repug/conservative ideology is to bankrupt the federal govt (exorbitant bull spending + tax cuts) so the govt will forced to cut spending later. Moving spending from taking care of citizens, infrastructure, research, etc. to spending on bull wars and subsidizing the MIC.
I think large numbers have been tossed around so much that people just don't get the ramification of 3 million people losing their job for any period of time over the next year. Its huge, and no matter what we won't recover it fully and it will take a while for the economy to absorb that; especially when you consider the state things are currently in.
I think CEO compensation right now is simply out of control. CEOs are simply not that valuable to the company. Its gotten out of control and one of the biggest problems we face today is short term stock price manipulation for the gain of these individuals at the cost of long term viability for the companies in question.
I don't know how to solve the problem because its main root is the apathy of shareholders - many of whom don't care more than watching that stock price go up. I'm just so disillusioned with free market economics right now that I'm not sure how to think of all these situations.
All I'm saying is that GM CAN make money- I don't know about the others, but GM makes profits in other countries. The problem they have here is the union's legacies are sucking them dry. They are a business that can make money if they can get that mess sorted out. I have no idea how do do it, and I'm not for just telling 100,000 65 year old men they no longer has medical insurance.
I also know that I live 3 hours from Michigan, and that is way to close if these companies fail. I can't imagine what will happen, but I read an article that says that state will turn into a 3rd world country. Southern Michigan has (I'm guessing) about 80% of their population that depends on the auto industry in one way or another. That includes stores where people that work for these companies shop.
I really think this is the problem with America right now. Nobody gives a about others. It's easy to sit in Texas and say "well I'll still have a job, so I don't care" but these are people like you and me- it could be us on the other end.
It's easy for you to tell someone in Texas, well, you should pay for my area's ups. Sucks that it's going to pull the plug on a dying state, but there's no way a free market can work when badly run companies can get free money to allow them to continue their backwards ways. Aside from that, GM; they couldn't give a about this country seeing the way they have gone running to Mexico at the expense of the American worker for the past 20 years. We don't owe to GM.
I think the point is that in the long run it would be cheaper to absorb the cost of the unemployment for these 1.5M-3M workers so that we can allow GM to go bankrupt, reorganize, get a completely new business model, and continue operating as a profitable company. The reason for this is that of these 1.5M-3M people many (but not all of them) will be able to come back when GM gets out of bankrupcy. Not only that, but the 1.5M-3M people arent even necessarily going to lose their job since GM will continue operating. This is the number of people who will be AFFECTED by ALL of the Big 3 filing. The reason why some people prefer this route is because they feel that it is a lot cheaper to absorb the cost of supporting these people temporarily to produce a leaner, more profitable company ( o, we are probably getting nothing in taxes from GM, et al), than it would be to have to throw 25B every few years (not to mention the plethora of other industries that will come asking for cash) at these companies because thier business model is in little shards.
Lastly I do want to say that while your point about Hondas, Toyotas, et al may hold some water (less comp, higher prices), but A. I think this will correct itself relatively quickly as there are companies that are healthy that don't even sell cars in the US, and of the one's that do they will see an opportunity, and ramp up production to fill the void and take market share (VW for example). Also, if as you say 3M people are losing their jobs in the auto industry, there is no way that the workers at the Honda and Toyota plants make peep about higher wages knowing that there is a glut of experienced workers on the market. That is just economics 101 supply and demand.
The big problem with bankruptcy is where is GM going to get the loans/cash to operate?
The govt would still have to loan, or guarantee, the cash to GM.
I think that would be fine, I wouldn't mind loaning money to a leaner company that is better prepared to compete and has a chance to turn a profit. I would much rather do that then to GIVE money to a company for no other reason than to temporarily glue together a shattered company that is obviously a day late and a dollar short.
Start liquidating assets. Bankruptcy will force the hand of the UAW or watch the company disappear. With interest expense savings and cost reductions, Gm should come close to closing the $3billion per month hole.
1. Allow bankruptcy so that any change is on the table.
2. Government bailout through buying shares.
3. After you get government control, hire Mitt Romney to fix it. Well, hire somebody who will remake these companies in the style of successful auto companies like Toyota, Honda, etc., and the CEOs and the union be damned.
i say move em to a "at-will" state....um...like TEXAS...to save the cost of the unions....make them completely redesign the products that they have to compete better w/japanese automakers so americans will actually buy them...
Uggh, I don't like the UAW, but at-will is bull .
yea...i mean is it really such a bad thing to think that your boss will fire you if you don't do your job...and you can't get overpaid without having any real skill...
no one likes to be held responsible for their own actions...
Waxman Topples Dingell For Energy And Commerce Chair
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/21/us...21dingell.html=
A huge victory for environmental progress.
A huge defeat for Big3 automakers.
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