Christians tell Hindus "not in my house"

[ploto]

He was also a Rabbi, meaning he had met the qualifications of the Jewish process for priesthood. Priests didn't own slaves.

It is not universal Christian belief that Jesus was actually a Rabbi in the sense of having been through the process and having that le officially conferred upon him.

[Phenomanul]

Let's see what we know about Hitler...

--- He ordered the murder of millions.
--- He used some mythological themes in some of his speeches.
--- He was an anti-semite
--- He did have some 'messianic' ambitions.

We can surmise that he was a bit insane, and have some evidence that he was quite possibly under the influence of several drugs towards the last few years of his life.

THAT is what we KNOW about Hitler.

Ok... so even if I agree with this condensed list... None of Hitler's actions sprouted from his 'professed' christian belief system. Not a single one. Which is what someone implied in their rebuttal after I suggested that heinous crimes had been committed for something other than 'religion'.

[RandomGuy]

That is such a copout analogy...

Comparing anything to the '9-11' conspiracy movement with the intent of debunking the argument is not an argument in and of itself.

Just see the DVD... it isn't even marketed by Christians... it's a do entary from the History channel.

You misunderstand me.

It would be illogical to assert the following:
The "9-11 truth" movement is false. The "Hitler was a satanist" movement sounds like the "9-11 truth" movement, therefore it is false.

That is not what I said.

The "Hitler was a satanist" movement as an idea is either true or false independent of the truth of the "9-11 Truth" movement.


I said:

One or two people wrote a couple of badly-researched books riddled with logical fallacies, and others picked up on it, re-wrote the stuff, added a few unsupported claims peppered with an occasional fact taken out of context to come up with this whole "Hitler was a satanist" movement.

This is a stand-alone critique of the idea.

I did compare this method of spreading a ty idea to that of the modern 9-11 "truth" method, and I stand by that observation.

They are both ty ideas, unsupported by credible evidence.

That you don't like that comparison, I can understand. But please do not think that I attempted to discredit the "satanist Hitler" idea by associating it with the "truth" movement. It is a ty idea all by itself.

[Phenomanul]

It is not universal Christian belief that Jesus was actually a Rabbi in the sense of having been through the process and having that le officially conferred upon him.

You are correct... it is generally agreed that those who were allowed to speak in synagogues needed to have substantial knowledge of the scriptures and of the law. By Jewish tradition, boys who excelled in this arena were 'pushed' into that role. They would later serve an apprenticeship role under an existing rabbi, and then after several years become rabbis themselves. Jesus met all of those requirements, but it wasn't a role he sought to fill.

[RandomGuy]

Ok... so even if I agree with this condensed list... None of Hitler's actions sprouted from his 'professed' christian belief system. Not a single one.

I would agree. Hilter's actions were pretty much wholly inconsistant with widely accepted Christian principles.

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by baseline bum

Not quite at the same level as the atrocities committed in the name of religion, is it? Nursing a few sick babies doesn't quite make up for the crusades, brainwashing black slaves, 9/11, and all the other great things religion has brought us. So get off your high horse.

"nursing a few sick babies..."

You say that as if there is something that would, in your mind, make up for all of that.

How about nursing tens of millions of sick babies? hundreds of millions?

Since we are playing the moral equivalancy game, we need to know the rules, of course.

The rules are, by your own implication:

1) We can assume religion is good if we can name the things it has done that are good, and they outweigh somehow the bad things.

2) We can assume religion is bad if we can name the things it has done that are evil, and they outweigh somehow the good things.

You cannot logically have #2 without logically having #1. If you want to admit that your position isn't logical, say so now before we begin, so I don't have to waste my time on someone who admits they are being irrational.

Do you accept that these are the rules, and say that your position is a logical one?

Just in case BL misses it.
I would hate to pass up a chance to play the Moral Equivalancy Game.

This oughta be fun.

[Phenomanul]

You misunderstand me.

It would be illogical to assert the following:
The "9-11 truth" movement is false. The "Hitler was a satanist" movement sounds like the "9-11 truth" movement, therefore it is false.

That is not what I said.

The "Hitler was a satanist" movement as an idea is either true or false independent of the truth of the "9-11 Truth" movement.


I said:


This is a stand-alone critique of the idea.

I did compare this method of spreading a ty idea to that of the modern 9-11 "truth" method, and I stand by that observation.

They are both ty ideas, unsupported by credible evidence.

That you don't like that comparison, I can understand. But please do not think that I attempted to discredit the "satanist Hitler" idea by associating it with the "truth" movement. It is a ty idea all by itself.

Look... just rent the DVD... and draw your own conclusions... You've always struck me as a person with an insatiable thirst for knowledge. It wouldn't hurt... and I don't want to misquote the do entary with sketchy memory...

http://www.amazon.com/Occult-History...7212362&sr=1-2

[RandomGuy]

Once again, my time is done here.

Later gators.

[clambake]

You are correct... it is generally agreed that those who were allowed to speak in synagogues needed to have substantial knowledge of the scriptures and of the law. By Jewish tradition, boys who excelled in this arena were 'pushed' into that role. They would later serve an apprenticeship role under an existing rabbi, and then after several years become rabbis themselves. Jesus met all of those requirements, but it wasn't a role he sought to fill.

see, we're not that far apart.

the entire manifestation was the creation of what men with power agreed to believe, and continue to convince others to believe.

[baseline bum]

Religion makes for a lovely pretext for people who want to steal and to kill. They can convince themselves that rather than indulging their own selfish, evil desires, they're doing something for God.

Take away God, and they just find some other "higher cause" to rationalize their actions. See Century, 20th.

Hitler was not a Christian. He did the politician thing and used Christian rhetoric in his rise to power. His religion once in power was a strange blend of Nordic paganism and a revision of Christianity where Jesus was an Aryan anti-Semite white supremacist.

Religion is a particularly effective way to rationalize evil deeds because religious texts tell people to not think rationally, but to only believe. Their unshaking belief in the bible, qu'ran, or whatever other text as truth without question is then very easily projected onto their leader, who is right and unquestioned because he is doing the work of god. If a religious text should be unquestioned and it tells to kill the infidel or the abortion doctor, then the person doing it is convinced he is doing the most noble act a man can do because it's justified by the infinite wisdom in his holy book. When the holy book is filled with so many contradictions such as "Thou shalt not kill" and (roughly) "kill anyone who preaches about a different god", then an unshaking and unquestioned belief in this book as the word of god is insane.

I cannot think of any other tool as effective as religion for capturing minds and manipulating people willingly. The people's truth is nothing compared to the infinite truth of the gospel the minister preaches.

[RandomGuy]

Look... just rent the DVD... and draw your own conclusions... You've always struck me as a person with an insatiable thirst for knowledge. It wouldn't hurt... and I don't want to misquote the do entary with sketchy memory...

http://www.amazon.com/Occult-History...7212362&sr=1-2

S'okay, I saw parts of the do entary already when it aired.

Do a bit of digging into how the idea came about and what that do entary is based on.

Start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_mysticism

Then actually go out and read the book:
The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret Aryan Cults and Their Influence on Nazi Ideology : The Ariosophists of Austria and Germany, 1890-1935 By Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's

This is the guy who actually studied it and did some fair work on it.

The wiki bit gets is right on:

On nine pages, the Oxford historian Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke here surveys the most influential books that have attempted to explain the rise of Nazism as the work of a "hidden power". That Goodrick-Clarke's book includes such an appendix is not without reason. One of the difficulties of the book's subject (the racist-occult movement of Ariosophy, a major strand of Esotericism in Germany and Austria, and its potential influences on Nazism) lies in that it can be regarded "as a topic for sensational authors in pursuit of strong sales."[3] While Goodricke-Clarke doesn't see anything more behind this than a "post-war fascination with Nazism", [4] to him it is clear that the claims made by this literature are "wholly spurious."[5]

Certainly there were some non-Christian ideas (volkisch, Germanenorderung) that fed into the Nazi mystique and the modern mythology that they attempted to create as a means of controlling the population, but it just wasn't a satanic cult.

[RandomGuy]

Ok, NOW I am done. Honest.

[Creepn]

The Crusades did not save Western civilization from Islam. The Fourth Crusade made it really easy for the Ottomans eventually to conquer the Balkans because the Crusader sack of Constantinople irrevocably crippled the Byzantine Empire.

I said the crusades saved western civilzation because at that time, Christians were burning books, knowledge, and cast out philosophers and scientists. The west back then were like the equivalent of the Middle East right now.

During the crusades, Muslims re-introduced scientists and philosophers to the west. Thats how the crusades saved western civilization.

[ChumpDumper]

Look... just rent the DVD... and draw your own conclusions... You've always struck me as a person with an insatiable thirst for knowledge. It wouldn't hurt... and I don't want to misquote the do entary with sketchy memory...

http://www.amazon.com/Occult-History...7212362&sr=1-2

OK, I watched two parts of it online and there is zero mention of Satan, just some some mishmash of crackpot eugenics and neopaganism.

[Phenomanul]

OK, I watched two parts of it online and there is zero mention of Satan, just some some mishmash of crackpot eugenics and neopaganism.

Witchcraft, neopaganism, occultism, etc... all point to satan.

The point stands however... that no matter how much, how frequent or how staunchly Hitler professed to be a christian... his actions made him anything but.

[ChumpDumper]

Witchcraft, neopaganism, occultism, etc... all point to satan.

Satan points to Satan.

Had they worshipped Satan, the do entary would have said so.

It didn't.

The point stands however... that no matter how much, how frequent or how staunchly Hitler professed to be a christian... his actions made him anything but.

Sure, but the point stands that he wasn't a Satan worshipper.

[Phenomanul]

Satan points to Satan.

Had they worshipped Satan, the do entary would have said so.

It didn't.

Sure, but the point stands that he wasn't a Satan worshipper.

I just gave you the biblical perspective on such actions...

People who worshipped Baal in the Old Testament, or the many Egyptian gods were condemned by GOD because they were in fact 'worshipping the prince of darkness'... aka. Satan.

Participation or affiliation with witchcraft is ultimately the same thing.

[ChumpDumper]

I just gave you the biblical perspective on such actions...

I just gave you the fact that Satan worship isn't mentioned anywhere in the do entary.

People who worshipped Baal in the Old Testament, or the many Egyptian gods were condemned by GOD because they were in fact 'worshipping the prince of darkness'... aka. Satan.

Great. If you believe that kind of thing, then that's what you believe.

[clambake]

your dad's act really ed you up.

[Phenomanul]

your dad's act really ed you up.

Just because I don't agree with your worldview???... please...

"The greatest act the devil pulled off was convincing the world he didn't exist"

At least I acknowledge the fact that people are en led to their beliefs; your narrowminded approach, however, scorns those that disagree with your worldview. How are you acting any differently from those you are criticizing?

[Phenomanul]

I just gave you the fact that Satan worship isn't mentioned anywhere in the do entary.

Great. If you believe that kind of thing, then that's what you believe.

Participation or affiliation with witchcraft is ultimately the same thing.

[Extra Stout]

I said the crusades saved western civilzation because at that time, Christians were burning books, knowledge, and cast out philosophers and scientists. The west back then were like the equivalent of the Middle East right now.

During the crusades, Muslims re-introduced scientists and philosophers to the west. Thats how the crusades saved western civilization.

Muslim infusion of knowledge into the West came through Spain and Sicily, not the Crusades.

[ChumpDumper]

Participation or affiliation with witchcraft is ultimately the same thing.

If you believe it is. If you don't, it isn't.

[kwhitegocubs]

Yes, but you are expecting people to take your point of view as objective fact when it is, in fact, heavily influenced by your very strong and very conservative evangelical Christianity. Thus subjective.

Most of the people disputing your "proof of Satanic cult" claim are more empiricists or, at the very least, outside of your specific denomination/view of religion. Therefore, you can't expect them to believe the connections you make based on the Bible, much less your particular take on things that can be taken from the Bible.

I don't agree either, and think that you also take the OT way too seriously. I mean, how can you ignore the bat craziness of the laws in the Torah!?

[Phenomanul]

If you believe it is. If you don't, it isn't.

Fair enough...