I know I am new to the board but just reading around a little bit I've seen some people scratch the surface but no full blown discussions about it, so I felt the need to start a forum because rebounding has obviously a major sub-plot to their season through 12 games. Here are some stats/analysis so we can fully understand the problem:
defensive rebounding: Though it doesn't seem like it, they are 4th in the league in defensive rebounding at 75.2% (as in they grab the defensive board 75.2% of the time after the opponent misses a shot). Granted they have not been a great defensive team 2nd chance points have not been a contributor to their bad defense, the other team is simply getting easier shots and thus missing less shots.
offensive rebounding: Here is the real rebounding problem, they are currently 30th (dead last) in the league at 20.8%, which has caused problems for them. Obviously, not being able to get consistent 2nd chance points every game puts a burden on their offense, but being horrible on the offensive boards severely compromises what's always been the league's best half break defense. They have never been a spectacular offensive rebounding team, but they've been good enough to keep the other team's guards honest and unable to sprint back up court, and so far this year that isn't the case. Call it dumb, but from what I've seen a team lacking in offensive boards causes their defense to suffer just as much as their offense. This is why the Suns have always been easy to run on, they annually rank bottom 5 in offensive rebounding. Here is my opinion as to what has been causing their offensive rebounding problem.
Obviously, missing your starting SG and PG shouldn't seem to affect rebounding, but look at some of the minute distribution so far this year:
Oberto: 19.4 MPG
Kurt Thomas: 14.5 MPG
So that's a combined 33.9 minutes per. Since those 2 are rarely on the court together, both of which are limited offensive players, Popovich needs one of them on the floor when Duncan is out for rebounding/defense, and Duncan plays 36.5 minutes per, I am going to assume that during those 11.5 minutes a game Duncan is out either Bonner/Tolliver is in so the floor with one of them to help the offense.
Basically, 26 out of 48 minutes a game they have an undersized lineup on the floor, which is limiting their offensive boards severely. Bonner and Tolliver are versatile offensive big men but not great rebounders.
(when figuring the minutes out I didn't factor in missed games)
So what does this mean? It means take it easy on the rebounding woes, I could be dead wrong about my hypothesis that Pop is needing to go to smaller shooter friendly lineups to make up for the lack of offense by sacrificing interior defense and rebounding, but I think until they're fully healthy and still have a problem on the offensive boards there really isn't a cause for concern.
I think SPurs Defense scheme is designed not to allow fastbreak opportunities. The moment the shot is up, most of the Spurs are already going back. So, offensive rebounding will suffer, by design.
It is the defensive rebounding that needs fixing, IMO.
+1
offensive rebounding is not a problem. it's the consequence of the Spurs defensive scheme which Pop gladly sacrifices.
I shudder to consider ANY negative statistical analysis during this period (being injured). If they are totals, you have to factor in the horrible performances and blowouts that it would be difficult for any team to avoid while top players are out.
I realize somebody pretty quick is going to post something stupid about "Manu and Tony were'nt our rebounders". That's not how it works.
I think Oberto has one of the worst rebounding / 40 min rates of anyone on the Spurs, regardless of position.
Having him on the floor helps with picks and interior passing, but his rebounding has been shockingly bad this year.
Yeah, but he taps the ball out to other players the best.
A player that might be available in a trade and would give us the most bang for the buck towards rebounding is Jeff Foster. He plays as hard as Bowen and could guard the likes of a Stoudamire, Gasol or West. I think he would fit along Ducan well. He is in the last year of a 6 mil contract so a trade might be difficult.
That's why I posted all of this, because I think people are viewing it as something that simple when it isn't at all. And for whoever said the offensive rebounding hasn't been a problem the defensive rebounding has, the stats don't lie. The Spurs are statistically a top 5 defensive rebounding team this year but the worst offensive rebounding team this year. I think their defense in general has been bad, their opponents are shooting 45% from the field, down right terrible compared to the Spurs we know.I shudder to consider ANY negative statistical analysis during this period (being injured). If they are totals, you have to factor in the horrible performances and blowouts that it would be difficult for any team to avoid while top players are out.
I realize somebody pretty quick is going to post something stupid about "Manu and Tony were'nt our rebounders"
I also know their defensive scheme is to get back on defense quickly, but the fact is offensive rebounds keep the other team honest, most NBA coaches are gonna know the Spurs are statistically the worst offensive rebounding team and tell their guards it's ok to cheat back up court once the shot goes up because they rarely have more than 1 offensive rebounding threat on the floor. It's easier to get back in time if the other team has to keep all their players there to get the board. But my big picture point is, Popovich has been forced to use smaller lineups, so the rebounding problem is in my opinion only temporary, and I think that this team can't be judged for ANY WEAKNESSES until it is healthy.
I am not saying it's a perfect team when healthy, I'm saying it's impossible to tell what weaknesses they'll have post all star break (when it really matters) based off of what weaknesses they have now. I can't believe I'm saying this to a bunch of Spurs fans but I figured you guys didn't panic so quickly but......HAVE FAITH!!!!
I always actually thought the hard working trashcan type of underrated players would fit along well with Duncan. Mihm, Pryzbilla, Foster, David Lee, even the old "today's version" of Ben Wallace.
...wait, all except for Wallace they're white! WTF??
(countdown till Killbillpanocha calls me a racist)
Anderson Varejao is actually in the last year of his contract and didn't want to stay in Cleveland in the first place, once the "offer matched" trade restriction is off his contract the Spurs could go after him. Cleveland could be interested in Bonner/Tolliver since none of their bigs can shoot very well (except for big Z but he's a scrub), I have a strange hunch Pop is playing Bonner so much early on with the hopes of getting his trade value up.
I'm not sure when Pop became so enamored with the 'tap-out' concept, but I've noticed a tendency of all our bigmen, even those coming in, developing this habit. Tim and Thomas are about the only two who seem to go up for a rebound with two hands (Bonner when he's having a good night). I guess it does, in a sense, contribute to our smaller players being able to help rebound, but it seems like it's getting tipped out to opposing players just as often as our own, and has to be contributing to our offensive rebounding woes.
Get position. Box out. Grab the ball.
There is no tappy tap involved in those instructions.
he'll be asking for way more than his worth.
+2.
The Spurs have always been more concerned with transitional defense and limiting fastbareak opportunities than offensive rebounding. Which is partly how they've beaten the heck out of these gimmicky, break-neck offensive juggernaut teams like PHX, GS, over the years.
+1 That's been the case for over a decade. It's part of their scheme. They work the offense to get the best shot possible (which they often do) but their first priority is to get back on D and stop easy buckets...make them face our half court D.
Pop likes players that tap out but can't fundamentally rebound? He should trade for Amare, all Amare ever does is tap out to the opposing player when there is nothing stopping him from just grabbing it with two hands. Gotta love the basketball IQ Amare has....
I know they have, but Duncan and Oberto/Muhammed being able to get offensive rebounds keeps the opposition honest if you get what I'm saying. Ginobili is a also a very underrated defender and is one of the best at getting in the passing lane when the other team is on a fast break. Oberto is a mediocre defensive rebounder but a great offensive rebounder. The last two championship seasons the Spurs were middle of the pack in offensive rebounding but were able to step it up against teams like Phoenix that could lose games because of the other team's 2nd chance points, this year they are dead last in that department, the team dead last in offensive rebounds is never going to win a championship.
Duncan's defensive rebounding has slipped this year but that's due to the fact he's had such a burden offensively and on the interior defense that he hasn't had the ability or energy to be able to focus on positioning for the rebound, another thing that I think will get better once Manu and Tony come back. As good as Duncan is he can only do so many things at once, when he's guarding the other team's best low post offensive player his rebounds are going to slip a little. With that said he's still been a GREAT defensive rebounder so I really don't see a problem with him.
still, it would be nice to have a bigman ball hound like Foster or Andy.
The Spurs struggle to rebound because they lack size. It's pretty simple really.
i present to you Thomas, Bonner, Tolliver, Oberto. all 6'10" and above. it's about desire not size.
If it is a controlled tap, score keepers count that as an offensive rebound for Oberto.
Jason Kidd is only 6'3" and is superb rebounder for a PG.
As far as Pop's tactics allow, the entire team needs to help out with RB.
In baseball, it's "hit 'em where they ain't".
In basketball RB, it's "go get 'em where they are". Go to the RB, don't wait for it to fall in your hands.
To further your point I present Barkley, Boozer, Brand, Chuck Hayes (if he can stay out of foul trouble), Wes Unseld, Dennis Rodman, even Jason Kidd.
tlong, here's what Shaq said to Oden after Saturday's game:
Hey Greg, TELL ME HOW MY ASS TASTES!!!!
It has never been this bad--
they are currently 30th (dead last) in the league at 20.8%, which has caused problems for them.
It's about boxing out fundamentals, natural rebounding instincts and focus. Rodman was only 6'7" and had a relatively thin frame, but his BBall IQ was off the charts (regular IQ not so much) and he could see a shot go off and know where he needed to be for the rebound.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
