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Not really, their best rebounder other than Timmy (Kurt Thomas) isn't playing as much because Pop is forced to spread the floor more w/ Bonner and Tolliver since Mason, Hill, and Finley need more spacing than Parker or Manu to make plays.
Not only that but their big men outside of Duncan are not mobile or quick to get rebounds.
Not really, their best rebounder other than Timmy (Kurt Thomas) isn't playing as much because Pop is forced to spread the floor more w/ Bonner and Tolliver since Mason, Hill, and Finley need more spacing than Parker or Manu to make plays.
It's not about getting more offensive rebounds, it's about giving up fewer offensive rebounds.
Rodman didn't care about much else other then getting rebounds so all his focus was getting rebounds.
He would position himself when the shot went off with the highest probability to get a rebound.
He perfected the tap to himself which makes you play bigger because a one handed tap is easier to get higher on than a two handed rebound so he was able to out rebound taller players with the one handed tap to himself.
He would even fight his own teammates for a rebound to pad his rebound stats.
Spurs usually did have a small advantage in the rebounding rate.
usually something like +1-2 rebounds for more than a decade.
now they are down -3.5 rebounds. that's a scary number.
of course this causes a big part of our problems. and neither Tony nor Manu will cure this. KT and Fab are meanwhile to weak on the boards and even Tim doesn't rebound as dominant as he used to. even a pure rebounder like Reggie Evans would help us right now. (yes, I do know about all of what he can't do.)
Spurs bigs just cant jump high enough. They can establish decent position, but are always out jumped. I think Ian can stop at least that much.
the rebound weakness will kill the Spurs against the better teams in the league.
They are giving up way too many possessions and the better teams will take advantage of that.
The spurs better address this by trading for a good rebounder or this will kill the spurs in the playoffs.
Statistically they're a top 5 defensive rebounding team. When they are giving up 45% shooting their D is going to look bad regardless, Bowen is getting 22 minutes per compared to Finley getting 29 minutes per. Last year Bowen got 30 and Finley got 26 minutes per. We know why Finley has had to play more than Bowen, so we should understand why their defense is very un-Spurlike so far.
C'mon dude, you seem like someone who's watched the Spurs enough to know it's not that simple. Manu and Parker might not directly make them a better rebounding team, but Popovich being able to use the offensively limited centers who focus all their energy on defense and rebounds because Parker and Manu don't need as much spacing to create sure does impact rebounding.
Even if you think that paragraph makes no sense, just wait it out, you know Pop is never gonna make a big change based off of how they look when 2 outa the big 3 are injured, might as well see what they look like once Parker and Manu come back.
Other teams have figured out they can make the Spurs pay for their emphasis on transition D by crashing hard on the boards.
The injuries to Manu and Tony have grabbed the headlines, but the fact that Thomas and Oberto seem less than 100% healthy is just another reason why I feel pretty optimistic about this team's chances. With the two all stars returning to help raise the FG% of the offense (thus limiting the opponent's defensive rebounding opportunities), Mahinmi finally suiting up, and Thomas & Oberto getting healthy, I think the Spurs will greatly improve their rebounding situation. That said, I still wouldn't mind a mid-season trade or pick up-- preferably for someone over 6'9" with a little bit of muscle. But I do think that Pop is waiting to see what Mahinmi can do-- this will be key. If he can be a steady, reliable rotation big, capable of solid defense and 6 rebounds per 25 minutes or so, the Spurs will be in pretty good shape.
If the Spurs are to improve upon their paltry reboudning efficiency, Duncan MUST get a double-digits every night and Ian must fill in the void left by the under-achieving effort from KT and Oberto.
Me too.
Explain please I'm not following what you're saying.
You have hit on a point that I've harped on for weeks regarding this rebounding situation. It definitely IS about positioning, effort and desire - morseo than fabulous athleticism.
NBA history is filled with the names of many current and former players who, despite size and frame, worked to become fabulous rebounders because of those intangibles mentioned earlier. Among them:
Jason Kidd - 6'4"
Fat Lever - 6' 3"
Truck Robinson - 6'6"
Buck Williams - 6'7"
Charles Barkley - 6'4"
Michael Cage - 6'7"
Wes Unseld - 6'7"
Alvin Robertson - 6'4"
Oscar Robertson - 6'5"
Charles Oakley - 6"7"
That said, KT nd Oberto have no excuse for their poor rebounding efforts, other than perhaps, they're skills and reactions are in decline. If that's the case, I can accept that and Pop needs to look for other options If not, they must step and help Duncan negate the many 2nd chance opportunities that the Spurs are giving up to the opposition.
As a team, the Spurs have poor lateral speed and they take a lot of long shots. Bowen is still not at full speed, Thomas really looks slow, Mason, Ime, Finely and even Hill are not very fast side to side. Our guards do not have quick feet. Rebounds that do not go to the calculated areas are often missed by backcourt of the Spurs.
If anything is near Duncan, he gets it. I find this to be his must understated talent. But, if he's not there then we have trouble.
Overall, I think it's a combination of Pop wanting them to get back to prevent the fast break, the high percentage of 3-pointers, and slow feet.
Other teams know the Spurs will only make half-assed attempts at rebounds because Pop will chew them out if they don't get back on transition D. So they instead concentrate on rebounds (which the Spurs are not working hard at) instead of fast-breaks (which the Spurs are working very hard at stopping).
Last edited by zepn; 11-24-2008 at 01:33 PM.
last year, per 36 minutes Oberto averaged 9.4 boards, Thomas averaged 9.5 boards, and Timmy averaged 12 boards.
This year, per 36 minutes, Oberto is averaging 6.1 boards, Thomas is averaging 8.8 boards, and Timmy is averaging 9.9 boards.
So I guess I could be wrong about Oberto, Duncan is averaging 2 less boards a game because of the added burden on him in other areas if the game, once the other stars come back he can focus on getting boards like he normally does. Thomas is averaging 0.7 boards a game less, but I've followed him since he was traded to the Suns, and he always starts the season slow, it takes 20 or so games before he gets in basketball shape and gets his legs back.
So maybe Oberto has lost something with age or maybe he's still injured, but Horry was an underrated loss as far as rebounding goes, and his body falling apart last season was a contributor to why they fell short. A guy who could get on the offensive glass like him while being able to space the floor on offense is hard for any team to replace. Those 2-3 put back dunks a game he was known for got the other teams attention.
PS- Manu is a great rebounder as far as guards go, so don't ignore him.
You have hit on a point that I've harped on for weeks regarding this rebounding situation. It definitely IS about positioning, effort and desire - morseo than fabulous athleticism.
This is why I am afraid Ian will not be the answer.
He can probably help us catching an offensive rebound here an there thanks to his athleticism. But I don't think his positioning will be good enough to help us securing our defensive rebounds.
Which is the objective, isn't it? Isn't getting teams to throw away the easy fast break points and focus on defensive rebounding the whole point of Pop's defensive system?
What I'm saying is the lack of offensive rebounding from the Spurs other than Duncan means the other team's guards can worry less about defensive rebounding and can cheat back up court and get more easy points.
They've never been a team known for offensive boards, but they've been good enough at offensive rebounding to punish teams like the Suns and now the Knicks who were told by D'antoni to sprint back up court and leave rebounding responsibility to guys like Marion who weren't as efficient in the playoffs.
It's a trade-off. What you gain on one you lose on the other. The worst thing opposing teams could do is give up easy rebounds in an attempt to go against one of the Spurs strengths.
By contrast the Spurs should (and do, to an extent) concentrate more on rebounds against teams with weak fast-break capabilities.
It's very possible that Hill will also be a very good rebounder, especially when paired with Parker-- this will allow him to him to crash the boards much more, not being the point guard responsible for staying back & preventing fast break opportunities. As a 2 guard in college, Hill averaged 6.8 rpg in his final season.
There's hope for the young guys, as in we don't know if they're good rebounders or not. After several years in the league I don't recall many players all of a sudden becoming much better rebounders.
So, who I think needs to step it up is Kurt Thomas. Oberto or Bonner have never been great rebounders, and Bonner is actually doing at least average, which is probably one of the big reasons he's been getting more playing time. Kurt has always been a good rebounder so for him to fall off like this is disappointing. He might already be in early retirement mode with that new contract. It's hard to say.
the Spurs in recent years has been able to negate that through effective offensive execution leading to less rebounds to contest on the offensive end. it is when they don't execute and just start jacking up shots or when the shots don't fall when this glaring weakness on the offensive glass rears its ugly head.
defense and offensive execution... these has been the staple of the Spurs' championships.
Athleticism has some say in this as well. Physical dexterity is an issue on the frontline, that has to change a bit.
Quality thread. Nice work, DUNCANownsKOBE.
First of all, I never spend a second caring about the offensive rebounding numbers for the Spurs. Part of Pop's defensive philosophy is to be the best transition defensive team in basketball. That means sacrificing offensive rebounds. I've actually seen Pop get mad at players for grabbing an offensive rebound and scoring. If you aren't in the immediate basket area when a shot goes up, you're supposed to get back on defense. That's just part of Spurs Basketball.
Plus, once Ginobili and Parker get back, the offensive rebounds will come. Right now, Duncan is playing further away from the basket than usual because he has to be an offensive threat at all times. Once Ginobili and Parker return, Duncan can go back to keeping one eye on the offensive rebound. And once he's in there scrapping, it'll be easier for the other bigs to fight with him down low.
The defensive rebounding numbers on a whole don't look too bad, especially if you look at the defensive rebounding percentage. But it's been a noticeable drop off from last season since the Spurs last year were far and away the best defensive rebounding team in the league. And it wasn't even close. An average NBA team would have extremely happy to be rebounding like the Spurs are right now but I don't blame Spurs fans for worrying about the defensive boards after last season when the Spurs almost never lost a game due to rebounding.
And I have to disagree with the notion that having Bonner on the court hurts rebounding. Bonner is actually a pretty good rebounder, especially when it comes to offensive rebounding. IIRC, he led the Spurs in offensive rebounds per minute in his first year with the Spurs and is posting good numbers in that category this year as well. He's not a great defensive rebounder historically but he's done a good job as of late. This season, the Spurs are better rebounding wise when Bonner is on the court compared to when he's off the court.
Overall, yes rebounding is a bit of a concern but I expect it to get better. Duncan will rebound better once he doesn't have as much of a scoring burden and Oberto can't help but to rebound better. Thomas will likely also get better rebounding wise as the season goes along and hopefully Bonner can continue rebounding like he has over the last five games. And while Manu isn't a great rebounder, he's very good at pulling down contested defensive rebounds.
In another month or two, we should have a good idea if rebounding is a problem. I don't expect it to be but if it is, trading for a rebounder or replacing Ahearn with a rebounder could become a necessity.
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