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Harris is better than Kidd at this stage, the trade was a massive mistake.
DD
Man he has been a beast so far this year. He gets to the line almost at will. I'm glad to see hes finally being used correctly. I loved him, but Kidd I think is a better fit for the Mavericks, as Harris is more of a scoring PG and with all the shots that Dirk and Howard get, he wasn't being used well. I liked the trade, and fact is that the team needed to make a move and im happy they did. But looking back, now I would much rather have kept Harris and traded Howard for some good role players instead. Then again, Howard was playing so well at that point, that Harris was much more touchable from our POV.
I have always thought Harris is one of the most talented scoring PGs in the league though, and he seems to be proving it so far this year. I've always felt that he is basically a more talented Tony Parker. He plays defense too.
Harris is better than Kidd at this stage, the trade was a massive mistake.
DD
But Harris didn't give the Mavericks the best chance to win the le right now, which is their goal before Dirk gets too old. If they traded Howard away instead, that would have been better, but no one was expecting Howard to end up turning out the way he has.
The problems with this team has not been Kidd at all. He has been our most consistent and arguably our best player so far. People who blame the Mavs problems on that trade are ing morons.
I'm just glad the one player in the league who can stay in front of Parker is in an NBA outpost somewhere on the East Coast.
If you're going to start sucking Devin's then you should at least admit the trade was a mistake. Kidd is a terrible fit in Dallas as he needs scorers to set up, since he's not much of a scorer himself. The only scorers in Dallas for him to set up in position to score are Dirk and Terry, but with Terry coming off the bench they are rarely on the floor at the same time so that is a moot point. Kidd needs athletic scorers to run with, which is why he started for team USA, he's still a good player and he can succeed in that role. Dallas is like the anti-Kidd, I think he would play better with any other team in the NBA than with the Mavs. Had the Mavs kept Harris and moved Howard instead (remember his trade value was much higher at the time) for someone like a Luol Deng, the Mavs would probably be fighting with the Lakers for the number one spot in the West as of right now. Harris wasn't the problem, it's more Howard and his not giving a , and the FO came up with a totally awful solution to the problem.
Great points ...I agree with the Mavs fan ...wow!
Harris in Dallas would make you guys contenders right now.
This is the argument I never will understand regarding the trade
Didn't the Mavs have a historic win total and were only one game away from a le with Harris?..... seems like he didn't "hurt their chances to win".
The Mavs have been nothing but average to below average since the trade with Kidd was made...he's not really helping their chances. I mean yes....Kidd can create shots, but he can't penetrate and break down defenses anymore (something Harris can do). So he's just setting up a crapload of jumpshots.......same thing he did in New Jersey (where he also put up great stats), which is why they were happy to move him.
Harris gave the Mavs something they don't have.....a guy who can actually do something called "beating people off the dribble and getting to the rack consistently"...which gets your team to the foul line, sets up easy buckets, and sets up easy buckets for the rest of the team. Dallas is nothing, but a bunch of jumpshooters now. Harris was also a MUCH better defensive player than Kidd....speedy PGs just run right around Kidd now.
It was nothing, but a dumb knee jerk desperate ass trade by Cuban.
Last edited by Tmac&Luther; 11-24-2008 at 05:34 PM.
I was never sucking his . Just saying I'm glad that he was able to go elsewhere and be used to his potential, because that was simply not going to happen in Dallas with guys like Dirk and Howard on the team.
He's not a scorer you ing idiot. He sets people up with easy opportunities for scores, which he has done a fine job at. Better than anyone in Dallas has done since Steve Nash left (and actually averages more assists than Nash did in Dallas).
Again, no one at the time wanted to get rid of Howard considering how he was actually playing like the best player on the team at the time (50% FG, 40% 3pt, 20+ PPG). And if you want Luol Deng in return, you really must be more re ed than I thought. Luol Deng has actually regressed the past couple years, and never really improved his game much since entering into the league. Not to mention he isn't as good as Howard in just about every aspect of basketball (scoring, shooting, defense, rebounding)
No one was saying Harris was the problem. And he wasn't. Just like Kidd isn't the problem right now either.
This right here is an absolutely ignorant ing statement. Yes, Harris is a good defensive PG, but Kidd has been playing nothing but fantastic defense. The only times fast PGs gave him problems was when they didn't have Dampier in the game last year. Notice the Mavs would always either start out toe-to-toe with the Hornets, or get off to an early lead, but as soon as Damp came out of the game, their defense changed completely.
Fact is, giving Kidd for not being able to guard CP3 is ing re ed. CP3 is a top 5 player in the league, and there is not a single player that can consistently guard him. It's a team effort to guard guys like him, Lebron, or Kobe. But when you don't have an interior defensive presence, its impossible to guard just about any player that likes to penetrate.
That may be true, who knows?
Fact is, at the time of the trade, no one really realized how bad Avery's system was. And the way he had constantly talked about how getting someone that knows how to run an offense like Jason Kidd would make a big difference for this team. And when he finally got him, he didn't use his abilities at all. Then he started BSing saying he never wanted Kidd here when in the past he had requested getting a guy like him.
I can't blame Cuban one bit for getting Kidd considering how things were going at the time. Looking back, yeah they probably would have been better off just getting rid of Avery in the offseason and keeping Harris. But that doesn't mean that Jason Kidd is the problem with this team like many idiots say, because he isn't the problem at all and has been one of the 3 brightest spots on the team.
Wow, if your not even going to admit Kidd's defense has really faded there's no sense in even talking to you.(I mean yeah, 10 games into the season he might be defending well, but what the do you think is going to happen when he's logged 50+ games on those 35yo legs
)
I hate to break this to you guy, but it's not just CP3......have you taken a look around at some of the PGs playing out West, the PGs Kidd is going to have to defend? Kidd did not and does not give Dallas the best chance to win.
I also love how you deleted every other point I made and just threw that one out there.Because that was my least important point.
Last edited by Tmac&Luther; 11-24-2008 at 06:12 PM.
To touch upon another post-- the Mavs were basically the champions in 2006 (if league didn't send WADE to ft line 30 times a game) and won a ton of games. So why break up such a good team? And if the Kidd trade didn't make them worse, why have they been worse ever since?
If the 2006 Mavs were so "flawed" by Avery's system, how did they come SO close to winning a championship? It isn't easy to get that far, just ask the Suns, and I still don't understand why they didn't keep that team together, or make more minor adjustments. They were a young team that was going to get better. Cuban got restless and made a big mistake. Also, I think Kidd's defense sucks especially against good PG's. But I've always thought he was overrated.
He's getting better and better by every year...
Agreed
Did you even read my post? I already stated that Kidd isn't a scorer, I specifically stated that he's the type of player who needs to be surrounded with scorers so that he can put them in good position to score and make them better. Dallas has one scorer outside of Dirk and he is rarely on the floor at the same time as Kidd, and he's streaky at that. Dallas doesn't really play into Kidd's strengths, and now we have no one to break down the defense and get into the paint.
Maybe I'm undervaluing Howard, we probably could get more for him than Deng, but it's hard to see that when you're so fed up with the guy disappearing every 2nd half. And Deng hasn't regressed, his numbers in 06-07 and 07-08 were career bests. He's gotten off to a slow start this season, but this season just started. I'd rather have a guy who attempted to play defense and actually gave a .
Of course Harris wasn't the problem, and I'm not blaming Kidd either. Kidd is actually playing to the best of his abilities. He's playing in a system where he really doesn't fit but he's still played surprisingly well. If actually read my post you would see that I blame the Mavs FO for taking the wrong course of action. Instead of moving Harris they should have moved Howard. Harris is a beast.
Last edited by mavs>spurs2; 11-24-2008 at 05:58 PM.
That's just stretch's style of debating, he picks out irrelevant points and dances around the main one. Well, that and saying the word a thousand times. If you notice he did the same thing to me. That's why he gets one response and I'm out, he's too hardheaded to have a normal debate with.I also love how you deleted every other point I made and just threw that one aout there.
The solution for the Mavs is to trade J. Howard for Z. Randolph. They both need a change in scenery.
Amen.
Parker even admitted as much, too.
I can't think of anyone else who was able to draw a charge from Parker twice ever, let alone at least once per game every time they faced off.Amen.
Parker even admitted as much, too.
CP3?
Deron Williams?
Tony Parker?
All of those guys are pretty much unguardable by one player. Like I said in another post... its a TEAM effort to try to contain guys like that.
How about naming me some ELITE defensive PGs in the league today? Billups is probably the closest, but he's definitely not what he used to be. Fact is, there really aren't any. If you even start to say Harris, just do yourself a favor, go watch how he got faceraped by Dwayne Wade and Baron Davis, then blow your ing nuts off.
Okay, then here we go...I also love how you deleted every other point I made and just threw that one out there.
Getting gangbanged by Wade and Davis obviously did. Since apparently according to your logic, defending elite players like them are not team efforts, then simply look at the one-on-one effort of Harris... he allowed Wade to have the greatest NBA Finals series that any player ever had (even greater than any series Jordan ever had), while allowing Davis to completely break down a "historic 67 win total" team in the playoffs.
The Mavs were nothing but average even before the Kidd trade was made. Whether he is actually helping their chances remains to be seen. But he definitely has not been hurting them as again, he's been one of brightest spots on the team so far this year. And one of the problems with the Mavericks was that Dirk and Howard were having to work incredibly hard to create their own shots, often leading to fatigue down the stretch. Kidd was brought in to make their jobs easier. He has definitely done that for Dirk. Keep in mind, to make such a judgement on a trade that hasnt even had an entire year to examine is also very ignorant. If they up again in the playoffs, and Kidd doesn't do crap for the team, then I will admit that the trade was bad. But until then, I won't make a judgement. All I can do is examine what Harris gave us, as opposed to what Kidd gives us, and right now, Kidd has the potential to give us a better chance to win than Harris would right now. Whether the Mavs made the trade or not, I probably wouldn't have had much of an issue either way. All I'm saying is that I can see how Kidd can help us in ways that Harris couldn't.
Again, no one was expecting Josh Howard to completely transform after that trade into a lazy jumpshooter. Before the trade, he was playing at the highest level of anyone on the team, attacking the basket very well, getting lots of easy scores, and using his slashing and driving to open up his three point shot. If they had known that would happen, I'm sure they wouldn't have made the trade.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Give it at least a year or two to see how it works out. Not everything works out like the Rasheed trade did for the Pistons. Perhaps it will be more like the Franchise/Mobley for T-Mac trade... a trade that did nothing but earn your team a continuing load of first round exits.
So basically you are blaming Kidd for Josh Howard changing so suddenly from an athletic slasher to a re ed soft jumpshooter?
Deng hasn't improved his game much at all since coming into the league. The same kind of player still, only less talented than Howard in pretty much every way. And again, Howard wasn't sucking at the time of the trade. He was pretty much untradable at the time in the eyes of the Mavs and their fans, unless it was just a no-brainer type deal.
I think he fits pretty well into this system, definitely better than you and others give him credit for. Keep in mind we have had Howard injured for quite a while, and both Terry and Dirk have not been playing well at all. When the whole team gets back on track and in sync, I guarantee things will change. The way Kidd sets them up with so many open shots (I've never seen the team as a whole get open shots the way they do since Nash's days) he should be getting well over 10-12 assists a game. Fact is, Dirk seems like hes doing what he did last year (playing half-assed for the first half of the season), and Terry appears to be going through that shooting slump he goes through every season (thank goodness its happening early as opposed to late like it did against Golden State).
Yeah, its easy to say that now, but as ive said about 10 ing times now... no one expected Josh Howard to suddenly start sucking so bad the way he did, considering how awesome he was playing at the time. NO ONE wanted to trade Howard until AFTER he started sucking, which was after the all-star break. And Harris wasn't playing like a beast at all either, and was constantly injured which really hurt the Mavericks because we needed him to be a bigger role, but he never could do that because he was hurt every other game, and that constantly led to him needed a few games to "get his legs back". It was absolutely obnoxious. I guarantee his injury-prone nature had A LOT to do with the reasoning behind the trade as well.
say what you will about harris' skills compared to Kidd's....but would you rather have 82 games of Kidd or 55 games of Harris? The guy is fragile and unreliable, and he still gets curbstomped by larger guards.
All the Harris groupies need to become Nets fans
How much better does saying that actually make you feel?
say what you will about harris' skills compared to Kidd's....but would you rather have 82 games of Kidd or 55 games of Harris? The guy is fragile and unreliable, and he still gets curbstomped by larger guards.
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