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  1. #51
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    The only reason they're so hard on the auto industry is because they got rolled by the last bailout. A bailout that not only accomplished nothing but it continued to line the pockets of the very ones who were guilty of the mess to begin with. They couldn't very well go out and repeat the first mess.

    Actually they probably could have but surely they didn't want to re-bloody their hands.

    So what I'm saying is why get so upset because they weren't willing to revisit the same process of failure again?

    Furthermore I agree that at least two of the three need major restructuring but lets not lose site of the fact that if the banking world wasn't falling apart right now the auto industry would be putting along. Basically they're going to have to bailout the auto world because the last bailout of the banking industry failed to loosen up the lending. Attempting to fix the auto world before fixing their primary source of money (the banks not the people) is an exercise in futility at least for the time being. I'm not saying restructure isn't good though.

  2. #52
    Spurs, Colts, Cowboys, and Irish SpursFanFirst's Avatar
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    No, I'm not. Just because I'm not a blue collar worker doesn't mean I think unions are evil, or hardworking people should be exploited by this country's elite class in their quest to role back all of the hard fought victories organized labor has achieved this past century.

    I think the problem is that everyone buys into the rhetoric that unions are just evil ins utions that lazy people join so they don't have to work, but that's bull and anyone that has seen how much autoworkers in Detroit bust their asses to make a living knows it.
    I'm sure the union people in Detroit are very hard workers, but I don't see a good example of unions at my shop.

    In my department, half the people are in the union, and the other half are not. The half that isn't in the union gets paid salaries rather than hourly, we don't get overtime or holiday pay, we have to do yearly reviews which are a large pain in the ass, and we have to set and follow through on goals each year - the union does not.

    Now...I have no problems doing reviews and setting goals and whatnot....it's part of having a job, for which I am thankful.
    I DO have a problem, though, with the 2 different sets of rules in my department alone.
    The people who ARE in the union, with the exception of a couple, are extremely lazy. They come and go as they please...sometimes knocking off a couple of work hours each day and then take long dinner breaks? You add that to the fact that they don't have to set goals and have yearly reviews, but are given raises anyway, and how can I have a favorable opinion of unions?

  3. #53
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    The president-elect and the congressional Democrats all have signaled a willingness to pass labor's top legislative priority -- the so-called "card check" legislation, which would essentially abolish secret ballots and make organizing easier. Everywhere.

    If it passes, I'm betting the first stops on the UAW's southern swing will be auto plants in Shelby's Alabama and Corker's Tennessee, soon to be home to Volkswagen AG's first U.S. plant in a generation.

    Let the paybacks begin.
    Good idea, you southern-fried idiot politcians. You win now only to really lose later. Congratulations, you short-sighted morons.

    To be clear, I am against non-secret ballots. But if this is -for-tat, we all lose in the end. ing dumb, I tell you.

    Where do Japanese companies get their parts? Oh, from Japanese companies like NHK, who just-so-happens to own multiple suppliers in the rustbelt (they bought New Mather a long time ago). How are they doing?

    2 inches away from bankruptcy. Then they can close the plants and make all of their parts somewhere else besides here, where the populace is dumb enough to buy their products at the expense of their country.

    You want to talk about patriotism, lets never discuss Southern politics again.

  4. #54
    Spurs love forever RobinsontoDuncan's Avatar
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    I'm sure the union people in Detroit are very hard workers, but I don't see a good example of unions at my shop.

    In my department, half the people are in the union, and the other half are not. The half that isn't in the union gets paid salaries rather than hourly, we don't get overtime or holiday pay, we have to do yearly reviews which are a large pain in the ass, and we have to set and follow through on goals each year - the union does not.

    Now...I have no problems doing reviews and setting goals and whatnot....it's part of having a job, for which I am thankful.
    I DO have a problem, though, with the 2 different sets of rules in my department alone.
    The people who ARE in the union, with the exception of a couple, are extremely lazy. They come and go as they please...sometimes knocking off a couple of work hours each day and then take long dinner breaks? You add that to the fact that they don't have to set goals and have yearly reviews, but are given raises anyway, and how can I have a favorable opinion of unions?
    and where do you work exactly? I love how conservatives are quick with the anecdotes and short on the details.

    I have a feeling that this scenario is either made up, embellished, or both, and i relish the chance to prove it.

  5. #55
    Believe. KenMcCoy's Avatar
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    No cutting of base salary or benefits?

    Why would anyone in management merit a bonus?

    That's just a CYA measure written in because AIG execs gave themselves bonuses after their bailout.
    Looking but haven't found anything on the internets...but from my experience it is usually upper management that are the first ones to take pay cuts/reduced benefits. Could be that they already took voluntary pay cuts and it's just not a sticking point like the UAW cuts so no one is reporting on it.

  6. #56
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Looking but haven't found anything on the internets...but from my experience it is usually upper management that are the first ones to take pay cuts/reduced benefits. Could be that they already took voluntary pay cuts and it's just not a sticking point like the UAW cuts so no one is reporting on it.
    No.

    http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/sec...ategory=AUTO01

  7. #57
    Spurs love forever RobinsontoDuncan's Avatar
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    Looking but haven't found anything on the internets...but from my experience it is usually upper management that are the first ones to take pay cuts/reduced benefits. Could be that they already took voluntary pay cuts and it's just not a sticking point like the UAW cuts so no one is reporting on it.
    blatantly false. upper management tends to walk out with a golden parachute and designer spa sessions in nice hotels. See bailout, AIG.

  8. #58
    Dancing Machine Gino's Avatar
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    Do auto workers really make more than $70 per hour?
    How much does a UAW member make at a domestic auto plant? Various sites have cited the figure at an average of seventy-three dollars an hour (The Heritage Foundation). Keith Olbermann says that the figure is actually at twenty-eight before benefits, which only add ten dollars to the amount. Other sources indicate that Toyota workers (who are not unionized) made more last year after profit sharing was calculated. So clear it up for us. What's the real bottom line?

    A: No. That figure is derived from what the auto companies pay in wages, health, retirement and other benefits, and includes the cost of providing benefits to retirees.
    A report from the conservative Heritage Foundation, opposing the auto industry bailout, said that members of the United Auto Workers union "earn $75 an hour in wages and benefits – almost triple the earnings of the average private sector worker." Later in the report, it's phrased this way: "The vast majority of UAW workers in Detroit today still earn $75 an hour."

    That figure has caught hold with some conservatives, and it seeps into media coverage from time to time as well. A few examples: At a Nov. 19 House Financial Services Committee hearing on a possible bailout for the auto industry, Alabama Republican Rep. Spencer Bachus said, "Even with recent changes, the average hourly wage at General Motors is still $75 an hour. ..." Two of his GOP colleagues on the panel made similar statements. And in a Nov. 18 column in the New York Times, business reporter Andrew Ross Sorkin wrote, "At GM, as of 2007, the average worker was paid about $70 an hour, including health care and pension costs."

    The problem is, that's just not true. The automakers say that the average wage earned by its unionized workers is about $29 per hour. So how does that climb to more than $70? Add in benefits: life insurance, health care, pension and so on. But not just the benefits that the current workers actually receive – after all, it's pretty rare for the value of a benefits package to add up to more than wages paid, even with a really, really good health plan in place. What's causing the number to balloon is the cost of providing benefits to tens of thousands of retired auto workers and their surviving spouses.

    The automakers arrived at the $70+ figure by adding up all the costs associated with providing wages and benefits to current and retired workers and dividing the total by the number of hours worked by current employees.


    Labor Costs Aren't the Same as Wages Earned


    The result is the per-hour labor cost to the automakers, which is very different from "pay" or "wages" or even "wages and benefits" earned by their workers. As David Leonhardt pointed out in the New York Times (countering, in a sense, the earlier piece by Sorkin), the average GM, Ford and Chrysler worker receives compensation – wages, bonuses, overtime and paid time off – of about $40 an hour. Add in benefits such as health insurance and pensions and you get to about $55. Another $15 or so in benefits to retirees (known as "legacy costs") brings the number to roughly $70.

    That last figure accounts for the biggest difference between labor costs of the Big Two and a Half and those of the "transplants," as foreign carmakers with manufacturing facilities on U.S. soil are called. Ford, in material it submitted to Congress for hearings this month (see "Congressional Submission Appendix (PPT)"), estimated the transplants' legacy costs at about $3 per hour, a number that has less to do with the level of benefits paid than it does with the fact that the transplants don't have many retirees yet, according to economist Kristin Dziczek of the Center for Automotive Research.

    The Ford chart also estimates that, as a result of a historic 2007 labor agreement with the UAW, the legacy costs of the U.S. automakers are expected to fall – to about $3 per hour. That's because the deal calls for a new voluntary employee beneficiary association (or VEBA), a seldom-used 100-year-old tax loophole. A VEBA is a tax-exempt trust that can be used to fund almost any sort of employee benefit, but they are most commonly used to pay for health care expenses.

    In an innovative twist, the UAW and Detroit negotiated a VEBA to cover the health care expenses of retired autoworkers. Under the terms of the agreement, GM, Ford and Chrysler were to contribute $30 billion, $13 billion and $9 billion, respectively, to a trust fund to be managed by the union. The UAW would then use the income from the VEBA to cover retiree medical expenses. The agreement would protect retirees’ health care benefits in the event of company bankruptcy, while allowing the automakers to shed the bulk of their legacy costs.

    When the new agreement is fully implemented, which should happen in 2010, the U.S. automakers would still bear labor costs of about $9 per hour more than Toyota, but that's far better than the current gap. The 2007 agreement also calls for a new two-tier wage structure and other concessions from workers.

    As for whether Toyota workers earn more than employees of U.S. domestic automakers: In 2006, at Toyota's Georgetown, Ky., plant, workers averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members at Ford, General Motors and Daimler Chrylser, according to the Detroit Free Press. The difference was due to profit-sharing bonuses; Detroit's workers aren't getting many of those these days because, well, there's really nothing to share. The transplants don't give out much data, however, so it's hard to tell if this pattern is continuing or even if it applied to all Toyota plants in 2006.

    A final note on all this: Labor costs only account for about 10 percent of the cost of producing a vehicle. And it's not the cost of American cars that people complain about; they're already often thousands of dollars less than their Japanese counterparts. Whatever changes may be made in the carmakers' labor agreements, we're convinced, and the recent hearings show, that there are much bigger problems in Detroit.

    – Viveca Novak and Joe Miller


    Sources
    Sorkin, Andrew Ross. "A Bridge Loan? U.S. Should Guide G.M. in a Chapter 11." The New York Times, 18 Nov. 2008.

    Leonhardt, David. "$73 an Hour: Adding It Up." The New York Times, 9 Dec. 2008.

    Roberson, Jason. "UAW Losing Pay Edge." Detroit Free Press, 31 Jan. 2007.

    Sherk, James. "Auto Bailout Ignores Excessive Labor Costs." WebMemo #2135, 19 Nov. 2008.

    International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America. "Wages and Labor Costs." www.uaw.org, Web site accessed 11 Dec. 2008.

    "Stabilizing the Financial Condition of the American Automobile Industry." Hearing of the House Financial Services Committee, 19 Nov. 2008.
    http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...more_than.html

    So the truth is in the middle. They dont make 70, but 40 is still ridiculous for a low skilled worker.

    I also read the average at Hundai is around 21, and the average at Honda was in the high 20s. The article says that at Toyota, the make more than the big 3 but only through profit sharing.

  9. #59
    Dancing Machine Gino's Avatar
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    The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word “compensation.” It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That’s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.)

    The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don’t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.

    Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit’s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It’s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda’s or Toyota’s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/bu...nhardt.html?em

  10. #60
    Believe. KenMcCoy's Avatar
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    But G.M., the world’s largest automaker for decades, said Tuesday that it was in such dire straits that it would deeply cut jobs, factories, brands and executive pay as part of its plea to get $12 billion in federal loans and an additional $6 billion line of credit.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/bu...VUw/kPh+5HFL8g

    I think most upper mgt has probably already accepted a pay cut.

  11. #61
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    Anybody focusing on the fact people are not buying their cars?

  12. #62
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/bu...VUw/kPh+5HFL8g

    I think most upper mgt has probably already accepted a pay cut.
    So why did they say they would do it if they already had done it?

    Why not put it in the legislation so they can't just change their minds and give themselves the bailout money?

  13. #63
    Spurs love forever RobinsontoDuncan's Avatar
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    Anybody focusing on the fact people are not buying their cars?
    people aren't buying anything because the credit market is horrid. this isn't a american automaker problem, the major japanese companies are going through the same crisis.

  14. #64
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Anybody focusing on the fact people are not buying their cars?
    That's definitely the other side of the coin.

  15. #65
    Believe. KenMcCoy's Avatar
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    Anybody focusing on the fact people are not buying their cars?
    This in the end is what it is all about...stop making crappy cars.

    Stop paying your employees (mgt. and laborers) so much that it puts you at a disadvantage. Put those savings into making a better quality car with the same standard features of your foreign, well run compe ors.

  16. #66
    Spurs, Colts, Cowboys, and Irish SpursFanFirst's Avatar
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    and where do you work exactly? I love how conservatives are quick with the anecdotes and short on the details.

    I have a feeling that this scenario is either made up, embellished, or both, and i relish the chance to prove it.
    I'm sorry. How can my telling you where I work prove anything to you?

    But nice of you to call me a liar when you don't know the first thing about me.

  17. #67
    Dancing Machine Gino's Avatar
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    I cant believe that they are making 40 bucks an hours. Salary should be based off how much you would pay someone to do it and how much others would be willing to accept to perform the task.

    Are you telling me that percentage of the population capable of working in a GM Factory combined with the percentage of people who are actually willing to do the job equals 30-40 bucks an hour?

    Thats ridiculous. I guarantee someone would accept that job for 14 bucks and hour or less.

  18. #68
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    I know people who bought a car this year
    why wanted better gas miledge
    they produce a car that gets 50 miles per gallon
    not charge an extra 10k for it
    they will sell it

  19. #69
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    people aren't buying anything because the credit market is horrid. this isn't a american automaker problem, the major japanese companies are going through the same crisis.
    People have been shying away from American cars since long before this crisis started.

    Try again . . .

  20. #70
    Believe. KenMcCoy's Avatar
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    I cant believe that they are making 40 bucks an hours. Salary should be based off how much you would pay someone to do it and how much others would be willing to accept to perform the task.

    Are you telling me that percentage of the population capable of working in a GM Factory combined with the percentage of people who are actually willing to do the job equals 30-40 bucks an hour?

    Thats ridiculous. I guarantee someone would accept that job for 14 bucks and hour or less.
    Simple supply and demand. Unfortunately you don't get that when the union gets involved.

  21. #71
    Spurs love forever RobinsontoDuncan's Avatar
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    the big three had record profit a few years ago

  22. #72
    Believe. KenMcCoy's Avatar
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    When gas was cheap and they were stuffing things like the Suburban XL and Excursion down everyone's throat. There's no problem with making those types of vehicles but they should have had the insight (like Honda and Toyota) to invest in hybrid technology rather than how they could make their cars bigger.

  23. #73
    Spurs, Colts, Cowboys, and Irish SpursFanFirst's Avatar
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    I like how RobinsontoDuncan calls me a liar and then leaves.

  24. #74
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    I'm going to echo the point above about people not buying due to the banking industry not the lack of actual buyers. All we hear is how "noboby is buying" and its total bull .

    Not only do a large portion of my peers work on the sales end of the auto world but I'm in sales myself. I've actually had a better winter than I did summer and its only because I've had a rash of people paying cash or they have 720+ FICO scores. I have no shortage of applications.

    Again there is no shortage of buyers only a shortage of lending. I'm not talking about the guy with such horrible credit he shouldn't be out buying the in first place. I'm talking about the guy with average credit that could have bought near prime rate with little to no down who is unable to make a purchase now.

    This has nothing to do with a lack of buyers. The banks aren't lending and if they are lending its to people with almost perfect to perfect credit and the average joe is left with no deal or a term so ridiculous it just isn't worth it.

    This is why I pointed out earlier that if the banking industry wasn't falling apart the auto industry wouldn't be in dire need of help.

    Do they need restructuring yes and yes it might be a blessing in disguise but the fact of the matter is that we wouldn't be hearing about an auto bailout if the lenders didn't freeze the meat of the market out.

  25. #75
    Spurs love forever RobinsontoDuncan's Avatar
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    I like how RobinsontoDuncan calls me a liar and then leaves.
    ?

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