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TimVP? How can you say Fin deserves less minutes and Roger more? I mean, Fin is playing better defense than Roger imo and he hit those huge shots (3 in a row) and dished and assist when the game was on the line?
so far, it looks to me that pop is putting fin ahead of mason and hill in the wings rotation because fin can play the 3 and score.
Mason and Hill do not seem to play as well when they don't get 30+ minutes, at least not yet. It seems that with either parker or manu on the floor with them, they tend not to shoot enough.
Hopefully pop figures out how to get the most from these two; so far, the team has been trying to integrate manu and parker and is worrying about the 2nd pair later, but in the long term we will be better if we figure out how to get them minutes.
TimVP? How can you say Fin deserves less minutes and Roger more? I mean, Fin is playing better defense than Roger imo and he hit those huge shots (3 in a row) and dished and assist when the game was on the line?
Perhaps THIS is the answer to your question.
Maybe Pop is waiting for that other shoe to drop (a down game) to see how Bonner handles it before rewarding him with more play time.
The reason Pop is not giving bonner all the credit in the world is
1) He feels like a for benching so long
2) He's afraid too much praise will result in Bonner becoming "conscious" again
Interms of minutes, it's still early.
He's showcasing Bonner to trade him away for a real center
I'm a Parker HATER, waah, waah.
I never had a doubt Bonner could put up numbers if given minutes...in fact I spent most of last season arguing just that with a certain segment of ST Posters.
What I doubted then...what I still kind of wonder about, is Bonner's ability to perform under pressure.
Flat out...this guy in previous seasons has completely lost it offensively when it was any kind of a pressure situation.
What I've been excited about this season is that Bonner has been performing well in those situations...
Can he continue that?
Can he do it in big games, especially the playoffs?
That jump he has to make is mental one...
never said that dude, I just don't understand your pointI'm a Parker HATER, waah, waah.
Thanks for the notes, LJ. I sprained my ankle and haven't been doing anything the last few days, so I'm way behind.
I missed the first half of the Dallas game and Dish Network's local channels took a crap with a few seconds left in regulation, but I noticed a little wrinkle the Spurs seem to have added: It looks like they're sending one guy at the offensive glass while everyone else gets back on D, and it seems to be paying dividends. Anyone else noticing that in other games?
We can keep bonner and still trade and or sign for a real center
They don't have to go that far but you're right in that the chemistry isn't there for all the guard combos. Specifically Ginobili and Hill have a lot of kinks to work out. When paired together, Ginobili is a bit overaggressive and Hill becomes passive. Hill should defer somewhat but not as much as he's deferring at the moment.
Parker and Ginobili has been a really good combo. +/- wise it's the most productive duo on the team . . .
I'm pretty sure conscious is the word I'm looking for. Meaning Bonner is playing like he has shut down his brain function and is instead playing like a zombie.
Never thought you thought he is a choker...
He missed a game winning shot if i remember well... couldn;t agree more...
the first 6,7 games he was as horrid as it gets... it wasn't until he got his starting gig that he upped his level dramatically... around Manu's return he was starting to get better...
until Pop puts him in those situations we won;t know...
a better question is... will he do better than Scola then?
a question 4 ya on this... what could it be done to help on that matter?
In the previous three games, he was averaging 22.6 points and 8.7 assists on 50% shooting. Sounds like you are overreacting. He had a bad game but it's a little to be pulling out the mentally weak card.
Tough to say. Pop's history is that he benched Bonner at the drop of the hat. But this is a different version than Bonner.
With as well as Bonner is playing, the best thing to do is to probably ignore it and hope he keeps it up
I'm talking about on the whole. The Spurs will lean on Mason a whole lot more than Finley come playoff time. Finley has already proven he's not capable of shouldering a load in the postseason. Hopefully Mason can. The Spurs need Mason to be the fourth scorer to win a championship this season. On the other hand, whatever Finley does or doesn't provide is a bonus. If Finley doesn't play in the playoffs, the Spurs could still hypothetically win the championship. But they can't do it without Mason.
Ha. If Bonner would have played consciousless earlier on in his Spurs career, he probably could have carved out a lot more minutes. Even earlier this season Bonner was thinking way too much and being hypercritical of himself.
Somehow a switch flipped in that Houston game and he's played damn well since. Bonner's improvement has been one of the most impressive "light going on" moments I've seen from a professional athlete. It's like he woke up one day and suddenly figured out how he needed to play to be successful.
How many times over the years have you bashed me for supporting the acquisition of Bonner? Triple digits?
Up till this season he's been worse than that...up till this season if the game was even close he couldn't hit the basket....even if it wasn't a particularly meaningful game.
He's done well in them this season...
until Pop puts him in those situations we won;t know...
a better question is... will he do better than Scola then?I have the same problem with Scola...that's one of the main things I don't like about him.
Nothing really...it's usually something players either have or don't have, not always, but usually. I don't really think there's anything anyone else can do to fix it.a question 4 ya on this... what could it be done to help on that matter?
IMO...generally hustle type players are not clutch...my theory is because since they always play hard when the pressure rises they play too hard. Pretty much all players have a tendency to try too hard in those situations but the hustle guys really overdo it.
Whereas guys that don't try hard seemingly most of the time, like oh, Robert Horry for instance, seem to put out just the right amount of effort in those situations.
Just seems to me that the guys with the swagger or the low key guys, almost always turn out to be the clutch ones.
That's because he was choking his ass off.
Dude...I spent all last season saying Bonner could put similar numbers to Scola if given minutes.
What I didn't like about him is the way he couldn't hit the side of a barn if Bobcats were within 5 points in the first quarter....yet had an @40% 3PT %.
Fair enough. Thankfully this emotionless version of Bonner doesn't seem so adverse to pressure. In fact, his coming out party included two late threes to help beat Houston. Those were literally the first two clutch shots I've seen him hit in a Spurs uniform.
I remember that ... although that was more out of your hate for Scola than any support for Bonner.
Eh, he couldn't shoot last year even when there wasn't pressure. He shot like 33% ... which isn't close to good enough for him to remain in the lineup.
This year he's 55% from the field and 51% on threes. That has to come down but the good news is that in his rookie season he shot 53.3% from the floor so it's not like this is a total fluke with no precedence.
That's just my point...his career 3 PCT is pretty nice. I believe it's right at 40%...or it was prior to last season. So what that tells me is that he shoots just fine when he's getting blown out on a lottery team in Toronto...not so good when the games actually mean something. IOW...he's got the ability to hit at a high pct, but fails to do so when the games mean something...
That is choking defined.
And I disagree that my support for Bonner was entirely out of hate for Scola....I legitimately thought Bonner could put up numbers if given minutes. In fact the whole point of that comparision was to point out that Bonner's European numbers were actually superior to Scola's. Yeah Scola played in a better league but you know...the difference isn't as great as it is between Europe and the NBA.
I had the same primary problem with both Scola and Bonner...choking.
Biggest difference between them...Bonner is underrated while Scola is overrated.
If anything...I overestimated Scola by saying he and Bonner had about the same amount of athletic ability...Bonner's actually got more than Scola and I didn't realize that.
So by the end of the playoffs do you think Bonner will be seen by Spurs fans as a key piece to the future or a choker who got on a hot regular season streak?
Call it now.
i think bonner is not in our rotation after feb.
there will be a mid season trade
You misunderstand me, i just say that guy you've questioned on is pretty typical Parker Hater in my book -and since i've been a member of Spurs boards since 2001, right since Tony's rookie year, i must say i can tell one when i see it.
I guess we just disagree with how important Finley is, especially if he is actively defending. I think Mason is a player that will be off some nights and Finley is just as capable of being better than Mason on most nights imo. I certainly trust Finley's shot more than Mason's in a big moment as of now.
I do not think we could win a chip with Fin alone, but I disagree that we could win one without him
Don't get me wrong here, I've been in Pop's camp on every issue generally. But I don't think this one falls on Bonner, instead overlapping deeply into coaching territory. Bonner has not played this confidently yet in a Spurs uni, but a big reason is how much pressure Pop was putting on him to perform. I personally believe Pop was just using him in spot minutes to supplement Horry's "rigorous" regular season and never gave a damn if he lived or died out there.Ha. If Bonner would have played consciousless earlier on in his Spurs career, he probably could have carved out a lot more minutes. Even earlier this season Bonner was thinking way too much and being hypercritical of himself.
I agree, but I think the HOU game was a lightswitch for both Pop AND Bonner. I think Bonner finally coming in and playing a huge part in that come from behind win did wonders for his confidence. At the same time this was happening, Pop noticed his solid defense and rotations, observed Bonner's shooting ability in a real game time situation where it was needed, as well as his energy on rebounding, and his confidence in Bonner went high.Somehow a switch flipped in that Houston game and he's played damn well since. Bonner's improvement has been one of the most impressive "light going on" moments I've seen from a professional athlete. It's like he woke up one day and suddenly figured out how he needed to play to be successful.
Pop's doghouse tactics are what kept Bonner tentative in the first place is what I'm getting at. He's always had these abilities, and he's always hustled. It was just consistent playing time to let things click. I must say, I'm very excited with what he's bringing to the table, and how's he proven alot of naysayers wrong over this stretch of games. I'm hoping he keeps it up for a long while to come.
So by the end of the playoffs do you think Bonner will be seen by Spurs fans as a key piece to the future or a choker who got on a hot regular season streak?
Call it now.
I don't think he's on a regular season hot streak. He can put up these numbers consistently if he gets minutes. He can probably put up even better numbers if he continues to get minutes...he puts out the effort and has the skill set to do so. He's got a nice shot and he's strong as an Ox...and while he may be slow, he's faster than guys like Kurt Thomas or Scola IMO.
Without a doubt Bonner tries too hard when he comes off the bench, like many players do...he does better starting.
The past Spur that immediately springs to mind as a guy who couldn't play off the bench but did well as a starter was Hedo...that does not bode well for Bonner.
It's too early to call whether or not he'll hit shots in big games as a starter.
Clutch is an entirely different animal...plus there are different types of clutchness. I have to withold jugement and actually see him in some big games before making that judgement..for now I'll say he's probably still a choker based on what I've seen from him in his career and his style of play.
Plus...there is more than one type of clutch IMO.
For example:
Manu for instance...I'd say overall Manu is clutch...yet the idea of Manu spotting up for 3 for a game winner is not one I'm absolutely happy with. I'd actually rather see Duncan or Parker taking that shot. Manu simply tries too hard sometimes.
Yet Manu is the type of guy that will explode for an entire fourth quarter in a championship game...moreso than Duncan or Parker IMO....he's also likely the guy to make a winning play when everything breaks down. But spotting up for 3? Uhuh...I don't like Manu taking that shot.
Parker is definitely a guy I am comfortable with taking a last shot...he's done it for his entire career. Parker has always had a knack for hitting buzzer beaters since he was a rookie...he's just got it. He tends to really step up in OT games as well.
Robert Horry OTOH might explode..or he might do nothing and then hit the big shot...that's because Robert Horry was a master of all forms of clutch. Robert Horry had such a low energy level that he only had a normal energy level in situations that gave everyone else a cardiac arrest, and he was confident, and wanted to win. That's what made him Horry.
Duncan is similar to Horry...although I don't like Duncan at the FT line in a clutch situation. There's not a situation I didn't like Horry in when it came to clutch.
David Robinson was different from all these guys..Davi Robinson was neither clutch or unclutch...David simply might do something, or he might not. He did tend to have a tendency for making clutch defensive plays..but offensively he was probably the hardest player to catergorize as clutch or choker that I have ever seen. It's because he was neither.
Brent Barry was similar to Horry although I think he was much more likely to hit a big shot than expode.
Jack: If you gave Jack an open 3 it was money. Jack may be one of the best open 3 shooters I have ever seen.
Kerr: Kerr was like Jack, almost exactly like him. Difference is, no one left him open.
Elie: Elie was a last second type guy...but he was even more of a make it hurt guy. He might go 2-9 from 3 in a big game...but you can be sure those 2 were going to be back breakers that ripped the heart out of the other team.
To take this a step further...
Rasho probably not many people would consider Rasho clutch...but you know, when Rasho took shots in the fourth quarters of big games...especially late, they had a habit of going in. He was never going to give you a big game...but IMO, when he took shots he made them. I realize probably no one shares that opinion. Rasho is the embodiment of a low energy guy without a swagger that performs will in that sort of situation because the adrenaline gives him a normal energy level.
Scola is still different...Scola is the type that will tear it up for the first 3 quarters of a big game and then choke ass in the 4th...and he's not a last second shot guy either.
Scola is a lot like Michael Finley...good enough to trick you into putting him on the court when he doesn't need to be there. I really don't like these types of player...because you can't trust them.
Your boy AJ, if AJ had a clear path to the basket he'd do ok in clutch situations, I saw him have some good 4th quarters in his career when he was allowed to drive...but anything involving him shooting the ball was a disaster. Yes I know he hit that one shot...but I am talking about the other 1000 games of his career.
Bonner I just don't know about Bonner...right now he's definitely not one of the guys I want to see taking the last shot of a game with plenty of time to think about it...but I've never seen him in a truly make or break situation...until I see that I just can't make the call. I don't know that he's capable of a big game in that situation either...
Basically from, what I have seen so far, Bonner has the potential to be one of the most unclutch players I have ever seen....but I haven't seen enough of him to make the call yet...and he is showing improvement.
Last edited by whottt; 12-12-2008 at 05:55 PM.
^ Interesting post
What do you think of Mason? He plays with an Horry-esque calmness about him. He seems to be that type of low energy player who you claim is clutch. Plus he seems to have swagger.
But from your previous posts it doesn't appear as if you like him for some reason . . . .
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