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  1. #251
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Yonivore, still waiting whether you think it's morally justifiable to torture POSSIBLE innocents for intel that would save lives.

    You said it is NOT morally justifiable to torture innocents to save lives. But you do think it is morally justifiable to torture alleged al Qaeda suspects.

    To put these phrases together, you are willing to accept the risk that some innocent people will be tortured in order to gain information, correct?
    Asked and answered.

    I've already stated the decision on what interrogation techniques to use is situational and should be determined by whatever the interrogator believes will result in success.

    Roll that around in your brain however you like.

  2. #252
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Look, back on the invasion of Iraq.

    Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1991.

    The United Nations Security Council gave any member nation the authority to expel Iraq from Kuwait, by force if necessary. The United States Congress gave President George H. W. Bush the authority to do just that. The President of the United States set about building a coalition of nations to commit their military forces to enforce the UNSC Resolutions. This coalition expelled Iraq from Kuwait.

    In exchange for ceasing our ass-whipping, Saddam Hussein signed a cease-fire that contained several demands to which he unconditionally agreed. He then set about violating every one of them.

    The United Nations and the coalition then spent the ensuing 12 years, passing more resolutions, launching sporadic attacks, and generally playing footsy with the Ba’athist regime of Saddam Hussein who continued to violate the cease-fire agreement and all UNSC resolutions passed after the initial invasion of Kuwait.

    In 1998, Saddam Hussein expelled (or caused the withdrawal of – depending on who you believe) UN weapons inspectors at a time when Iraq was known to have tons of chemical and biological weapons and their precursors and before any of those weapons could be secured and destroyed. This led to a limited military action (Operation Desert Fox) authorized by the Clinton administration – which, ironically enough, was executed under the original Authorization for use of military force in Iraq from 1991 and for which Clinton did not seek Congressional approval in 1998. All of this, of course, was after years of Saddam Hussein continually frustrating the U.N.’s efforts to account for Iraq’s weapons programs in what has, by many, been described as a farce of an inspections program. But, in any respect, between 1998 and 2002, there were no weapons inspectors in Iraq and there was no reason to believe Iraq had suspended or ceased such programs. In fact, it was the generally held belief that, if anything, in the absence of UN inspectors, Iraq stepped up its WMD programs. No one had the benefit of the forensic study done by Duelfer in which he determined Iraq was merely maintaining its capability until such time they were able to have sanctions lifted. By all outside appearances – and from statements made by Hussein, himself – there was no reason to believe he had either destroyed existing stockpiles (known to exist) or had ceased his pursuit of WMDs, including nuclear weapons.

    So, comes 2001 and the terrorist attacks on the U.S.

    The U. S. invaded Afghanistan in 2001, toppled the Taliban and sent al Qaeda scurrying. Much of them, al Qaeda trained and al Qaeda sponsored Musab al Zarqawi among them, ran to Iraq.

    Now, tell me; in the climate that existed in 2002 and, considering the flagrant and defiant violations of every ing agreement from 1991 to 2002 by Iraq; who wouldn’t be in favor of invading Iraq. Not many were opposed and, by an act of Congress, President George W. Bush was authorized to resume hostilities for many and various reasons stretching all the way back to 1991.

    All this belly-aching by the left is just a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacking…and, I assert, not much of it is even sincere. Because, if it were, there’d be legislation introduced in both houses of Congress to put a stop to this “Illegal war” and the “atrocious war crimes” of George W. Bush.

    What I want to know is if any of you idiots on the left are lobbying your U. S. Representative or Senator to do just that or, are you just content to and complain?

  3. #253
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    hey yoni, did you put anything on that burn?

  4. #254
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Asked and answered.

    I've already stated the decision on what interrogation techniques to use is situational and should be determined by whatever the interrogator believes will result in success.

    Roll that around in your brain however you like.
    A simple "yes" would suffice.

    Let it be shown that Yonivore would be willing to torture possible innocents for intel.

  5. #255
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    A simple "yes" would suffice.

    Let it be shown that Yonivore would be willing to torture possible innocents for intel.
    Except, "yes," wasn't my answer.

  6. #256
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    From way upstream:

    I would use extreme interrogation techniques if there was a preponderance of evidence demonstrating the terrorist had information of an impending attack.
    In other words, 51% of the evidence pointing to the guy, whatever that standard of proof means outside of a courtroom.

  7. #257
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    From way upstream:

    In other words, 51% of the evidence pointing to the guy, whatever that standard of proof means outside of a courtroom.
    Yep.

  8. #258
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Preponderance of evidence is a standard of proof at trial. Unless witnesses and facts are tested before some competent tribunal, it doesn't mean very much. That's why I called bs on you.

    The secret evidence against the Bosnian detainees Judge Leon ordered the government to release last month wasn't probative. That's one reason the discretion to torture can't be left to the government, assuming this is a valid policy to begin with. They load the dice against the detained and overrely on untested information. This is a recipe for torturing innocents.

    Letting the government decide the facts prior to interrogation is a mockery of justice. When subjected to scrutiny in an adversarial process, most of the charges and information have turned out to be bunk.

    The government's losing streak -- and yours, Yonivore -- continues.
    Last edited by Winehole23; 12-17-2008 at 07:10 PM.

  9. #259
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Preponderance of evidence is a standard of proof at trial. Unless witnesses and facts are tested before some competent tribunal, it doesn't mean very much. That's why I called bs on you.
    Let me rephrase it for you then. If all the facts point to the person in custody being a terrorist in possession of valuable, actionable intelligence -- as was the case with Khalid Shaihk Mohammed; I'm in favor of using whatever interrogation technique may prove the most successful in extracting that valuable, actionable intelligence.

    Clear enough for you?

  10. #260
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Let me rephrase it for you then. If all the facts point to the person in custody being a terrorist in possession of valuable, actionable intelligence -- as was the case with Khalid Shaihk Mohammed; I'm in favor of using whatever interrogation technique may prove the most successful in extracting that valuable, actionable intelligence.

    Clear enough for you?
    Crystal. You don't really care about the quality of information. That the government has it is enough, and all the evident abuses of its discretion so far don't deter you one bit.

    I suppose it doesn't bother you either that Japanese were prosecuted for war crimes after WWII for using the very same technique you valorize. Do you think our government should apologize to the Japanese, since you've declared waterboarding halal?

  11. #261
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Hence my 'possibly innocent' comment. Cmon, are you afraid to just came out and admit it? If you're going to take the position that it's worth it to accept the torture of some innocents for intel, then you should be willing to say it clearly.

    Heck, I'm willing to say I support driving cars even though I know hundreds if not thousands of children will be killed by them this year.

  12. #262
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I'm not so bothered by Yonivore's reluctance to bare his heart. Where that lies is pretty clear. It's his pretension to having scruples about torture that grates.

  13. #263
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    If I had any sense the person being interrogated were innocent, I wouldn't use extreme interrogation techniques.

    Y'all are full of hypotheticals and, I've already stated that the three people, on whom waterboarding was used, I have no problem with. Present me with a potential innocent that received such treatment and we'll talk.

  14. #264
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    If I had any sense the person being interrogated were innocent, I wouldn't use extreme interrogation techniques.
    Now you are the torturer. Telling. Good thing we're not relying on your spidey sense, or we'd all be on the rack.

  15. #265
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Now you are the torturer. Telling. Good thing we're not relying on your spidey sense, or we'd all be on the rack.
    You didn't need "spidey sense" to know KSM and the other two, who were waterboarded, were terrorists possibly in possession of valuable intelligence.

  16. #266
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Why assume the government has made full disclosure? We already know it has destroyed interrogation videotapes.

    Besides, waterboarding is a distraction. It's on the way out. Talking about it only minimizes the bigger picture.

    Our mistreatment of detainees degrades us, ruins our reputation and puts our own armed forces at greater risk of mistreatment. And your continuing apology for it only discloses your moral depravity.

  17. #267
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Why assume the government has made full disclosure? We already know it has destroyed interrogation videotapes.

    Besides, waterboarding is a distraction. It's on the way out. Talking about it only minimizes the bigger picture.

    Our mistreatment of detainees degrades us, ruins our reputation and puts our own armed forces at greater risk of mistreatment. And your continuing apology for it only discloses your moral depravity.
    D'okie dokie. Let's see what Obama does with the terrorists we capture.

    Oh, and I'm betting the government hasn't fully disclosed the nature of their intelligence gathering...in spite of the best efforts of traitors in the NSA and CIA to spill state secrets.

    You'd better hope they haven't either. Otherwise, we're ed.

  18. #268
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    we're ed, huh.

    please elaborate on this doomsday scenario.

    put it in somebody else's words for me.

  19. #269
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    D'okie dokie. Let's see what Obama does with the terrorists we capture.
    Obama wasn't my choice for President. If he does the same as Bush I'll criticize him too.

    Oh, and I'm betting the government hasn't fully disclosed the nature of their intelligence gathering...in spite of the best efforts of traitors in the NSA and CIA to spill state secrets.

    You'd better hope they haven't either. Otherwise, we're ed.
    Using state secrecy as a veil for crime is corrupt. It deserves no deference, and the men and women who disclose such government wrongdoing in so doing only bow to their true masters, the American people, who deserve better.

  20. #270
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    If I had any sense the person being interrogated were innocent, I wouldn't use extreme interrogation techniques.

    Y'all are full of hypotheticals and, I've already stated that the three people, on whom waterboarding was used, I have no problem with. Present me with a potential innocent that received such treatment and we'll talk.
    Good law is based off hypotheticals though. That's the point. You can't just go around determining who's guilty and who's not. That's why we have a court system.

    I am not willing to assume the guilt of a person based off what our government says.

  21. #271
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    You didn't need "spidey sense" to know KSM and the other two, who were waterboarded, were terrorists possibly in possession of valuable intelligence.
    And if they don't contain valuable information, we'll just keep interrogating until they come up with some!

  22. #272
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Good law is based off hypotheticals though. That's the point. You can't just go around determining who's guilty and who's not. That's why we have a court system.
    Not on the battlefield we don't. Decisions are situational.

    I am not willing to assume the guilt of a person based off what our government says.
    Then join the NSA, CIA, or some branch of the military and get in their intelligence service and have at it.

  23. #273
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Not on the battlefield we don't. Decisions are situational.
    The decisions regarding torture weren't made on a battlefield. They were made at the DoD and the White House.

    At any rate, the Army Field Manual prohibits waterboarding. Or were you suggesting the whole world is a battlefield?

  24. #274
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    The decisions regarding interrogation techniques weren't made on a battlefield. They were made at the DoD and the White House.
    Fine by me.

  25. #275
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Not on the battlefield we don't. Decisions are situational.
    not in your mind. you've made clear what approach you'd use as an only option.

    isn't there anyone who can represent the right?

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