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I have no problem to admit when TP is playing bad offense or defense or both I jsut find funny that a Manu homer tells timvp that he is a TP homer when timvp is just being objective
and you are a Manu homer right ?LOL. Wow, doggin me out like that. Looks like i touched a nerve Timvp and Thanks Ploto for clarifying my response. Timvp your a Parker homer man. Face it, we all watch the Spurs every damn night and I know Tony is the man on offense, but defending his weak ass D is criminal. I again will reiterate (and I wish someone here was a big enough numbers geek to know this) I personally feel that our opponents starting PG vs Tony Parker has a higher than normal PPG. And for Hill, Im glad you admit that his D is better than Tony. Thats all i was saying. GO SPURS
I have no problem to admit when TP is playing bad offense or defense or both I jsut find funny that a Manu homer tells timvp that he is a TP homer when timvp is just being objective
Tony and Tim show no heart!!!! You got to want it and to me if they dont trade them away! Hill has outplayed Parker and that should lite a fire under TPs ass but hasnt yet, Pops needs to go back to chewing his ass out!
Duncan is what 260-270? He gets pushed around like a rag doll! He is slow to start him move and he tried to take what the D gives instead of imposing his will.
Hope the Spurs make some deals or decide to speed up the tempo and become a run and gun team.
I think other guards in the league get to many layups. And it shouldnt be anyones fault but the team as a whole. Or the simple fact that other then Timmy, there is noone to stop anyone from driving in and making easy layups. Teams are scoring on us and were not even set up on defense yet. If you get beat by your man, your teamate should have your back. Thats how the Spurs won so many les. By watching each others backs. In last seasons POs. I saw a Spurs team that didnt defend as a team imo. It was like if you get beat, its not my fault. And onto the next play.
My bad for reading your post wrong. But seriously, your point doesn't hold up to the facts.LOL. Wow, doggin me out like that. Looks like i touched a nerve Timvp and Thanks Ploto for clarifying my response. Timvp your a Parker homer man. Face it, we all watch the Spurs every damn night and I know Tony is the man on offense, but defending his weak ass D is criminal. I again will reiterate (and I wish someone here was a big enough numbers geek to know this) I personally feel that our opponents starting PG vs Tony Parker has a higher than normal PPG. And for Hill, Im glad you admit that his D is better than Tony. Thats all i was saying. GO SPURS
Against Parker, the opposing point guards average 15.2 points per 48 minutes. That's not only a good mark, it's the best in the NBA for a starting point guard.
Points Against Per 48 Minutes
Parker, Spurs - 15.2
Chalmers, Heat - 15.5
Blake, Blazers - 16.1
Felton, Bobcats - 16.2
Rose, Bulls - 16.8
Davis, Clippers - 16.9
Billups, Nuggets - 17.6
Alston, Rockets - 17.7
Watson, Warriors - 18.3
Ford, Pacers - 18.3
Udrih, Kings - 18.7
Calderon, Raptors - 18.7
Bibby, Hawks - 18.8
Conley, Memphis - 18.9
Miller, 76ers - 19
Rondo, Celtics - 19.1
Harris, Nets - 19.3
Fisher, Lakers - 19.4
Paul, Hornets - 19.8
Nash, Suns - 19.9
Williams, Jazz - 19.9
Kidd, Mavs - 20.6
Nelson, Magic - 20.7
Williams, Cavs - 20.8
Ridnour, Bucks - 21
Foye, T'Wolves - 21
Duhon, Knicks - 21.2
Dixon, Wizards - 21.2
Watson, Thunder - 21.5
Stuckey, Pistons - 26.7
You can call me a Parker homer if you want for pointing out that your assumption is incorrect, however there are the numbers you asked for. Parker is far from a perfect player but to call him out for the player he guards scoring too much doesn't jive with reality when he's in fact the best in the league in the category you say he is weak in.
Last edited by timvp; 12-20-2008 at 01:45 AM.
You've also got to take into consideration the Spurs team defense as a whole and the other guy backing him up down there.
I just think Parker has been very average on D lately.
I have seen Tony Parker play awesome defense before and I don't know why he's below his usual level.
Because he's not in game shape. Same reason why Manu isn't up to par yet.
isn't it the end of the thread ???? these stats are very clear, aren't they.
Can't we just say that TP sucked badly in his last game, on both end of the court ?? no, it's not enough for the TP's haters.
there are game where TP could be lazy and since his defense is all about speed, he's destroyed. but usually, he's a better than average defender without being a defensive force (he never will). the real thing that annoys me is that he's not trying enough to take a charge. manu should learn him.
you know there's nothing to argue when people say basically that Hill is better than Parker. I like Hill, great pick for us and obviously great guy, but all the love he got (and he deserves some) is magnified by the fact that he's the TP's backup and that some TP' hater search every single way to bash him.
The spur who was the most destroyed on defense these last games was Tim. it was sometimes really embarrassing. It's true that even when it happens, Tim still has rebounds and help defense to bring, but on one on one,it was embarrassing sometimes.
Why do you have to be a TP hater to say he's not up to par on defense? I'm not a TP hater. I just want him to play the defense he is capable of.
Can't we just say that TP sucked badly in his last game, on both end of the court ?? no, it's not enough for the TP's haters.
there are game where TP could be lazy and since his defense is all about speed, he's destroyed. but usually, he's a better than average defender without being a defensive force (he never will). the real thing that annoys me is that he's not trying enough to take a charge. manu should learn him.
you know there's nothing to argue when people say basically that Hill is better than Parker. I like Hill, great pick for us and obviously great guy, but all the love he got (and he deserves some) is magnified by the fact that he's the TP's backup and that some TP' hater search every single way to bash him.
The spur who was the most destroyed on defense these last games was Tim. it was sometimes really embarrassing. It's true that even when it happens, Tim still has rebounds and help defense to bring, but on one on one,
Tim I give a little more slack than anyone else because he basically has to worry about 5 guys. When the guards get broken down he has to basically try and cover their man or help out. That makes it harder for Tim to cover his own man. I will agree though his defense at times lately has been average as well.
Hill, I really like so far on the defensive end. Is he a better defender than Parker? I don't know, at times this season I think he is, but TP at his best is very, very good. In the playoffs I've seen TP play some great defense.
Also, I think I like defense a lot better than offense so when people are not playing well on the defensive end it really gets me mad. We're not going to be too good if we don't defend well.
And about TimVP's stats that he posted up I still don't think they completely end the discussion. Another point to consider is that the opposing point guard has to spend a ton of energy on defense trying to guard TP which in turn might tire him out a little bit causing his own offense to drop. Anyone considered that?
Last edited by Ice009; 12-20-2008 at 06:59 AM.
I can attest to Parker sucking on defense. He relies way too much on the help. His arms aren't long and you can tell he never hits the weights.
The opposing point guard stat is bull for 2 reasons, one... Parker is a scoring point guard and most point guards are asked to distribute. Two, and the biggest reason... Bowen guards the top point guards like Nash and Paul when it matters the most more times than not.
Parker can't guard Nash, or Paul, or Williams, or Marbury for that matter. I used to think Parker was at least serviceable on defense, but after seeing him repeatedly get burned by the top guards in the league, I have to think otherwise.
Probably because he spent an entire NBA finals on the bench.Parker's been the fall guy for the last half decade.
I just have to laugh at these stats. I mean, not only are some of the names towards the top of the list laughable, but I'm sure this does not take into account pace factor, or anything of the sort. It surely doesn't take into account who the bigs are protecting the rim. It certainly doesn't take into account their philosophies on defense, either. Sometimes you have to actually see the game, to know whether or not someone has defensive ability. Anyway, I've bolded out some names in the quote for humor. The names in red I laughed extra hard at. I thought about putting Alston in pink because of how hard I laughed at that one, but I decided not to.
What does that mean? You think point guards are getting more assists than usual against Parker?
Uh, Bowen hasn't been guarding point guards this year. Have you been watching?
You obviously don't watch. Parker has been one of the better Nash defenders since the beginning of his career. The Spurs came back from a 0-2 deficit when Pop switched Parker onto Paul. Parker has outplayed Williams head to head in his career. And Marbury hasn't been a problem for Parker since about 2003.
Have you watched the Spurs since 2003?
It's obviously not going to list the best point guard defenders in order but the three players you bolded are all pretty good defenders. JVG turned Alston into a good defender. Davis, when motivated, is a damn good defender. Ford is small but for his size he can defend.
If you wanted to point out a bad defender near the top of the list you should have bolded Rose.
Yes because the Heat have all those bigman in the middle to protect the rim.
Fail.
I can't believe all this hate on TP
The guy is an all star, finals MVP, the starter PG for the best team in the league since 2002 and people keep find a way to say some BS about him
That's stupid
Seems like a lot threads we see every year around late december/early january.
Then the RRT comes along and they right the ship.
But it won't stop the fans from panicking again next year about this time.
An entire NBA finals on the bench? What a dumbassI guess you didn't watch the first two finals of 03. And I guess him winning the finals MVP in 07 wasn't redemption. It's obvious to me who the haters are.
just when it looked like i had wasted time reading a thinly veiled tp/manu thread, there was a nuggest of rationality, and from an unlikely source.
i absolutely agree- we've gradually deteriorated as a defensive team, because teams are realizing Duncan is the only shotblocker, we're older and injured to boot, and increasingly more often than not there just isnt the tenacity that we've come to take for granted from spurs defense.
but its absolutely re ed to pin it on parker, especially when he has showed more improvement this year and is coming back from injury.
in that sense I agree with the OP that Hill and Mason should still be seeing more of TP and Manu's minutes. especially when they were winning at a very good pace with that lineup. and i think the FO should make a call on mahinmi at midseason, because it would be almost pointless to go into the playoffs without another shotblocker.
in the champ years the spurs had the perfect combination of good D (no layups or 3s) and scoring (layups from the big 3 and 3s from the roleplayers). It certainly feels like we're ending up on the wrong end of those 3s and layups more often.
Well, the Coyote is pretty awesome. Just sayin'...
And if this is a thread to complain about everything, I'd like to say Hornets fans are much better than Spurs fans. They boo and applaud at all the right times, reacting to what's actually going on during the game. If this was in the AT&T Center, Spurs fans would have been cheering David West's 3's because they were distracted by the Coyote doing the 'steal the woman's purse' trick on the sidelines.
Pretty sick stats I must say, guess my eyes are deceiving me. Appreciate the info mang. I guess seeing CP and Jameer light us up got to me. I suppose its another case of a fat and happy Spurs fan always wanting more. HOW CAN YOU BLAME ME? We're used to excellence. Bar none.
I would not mind tp running to suns when his contract is up of he leaves the spurs
always will be a spur fan though
they are MY TEAM
I would be able to see him in person
and people in az would love his d especially considering what nash does on d
Pretty sick stats I must say, guess my eyes are deceiving me. Appreciate the info mang. I guess seeing CP and Jameer light us up got to me. I suppose its another case of a fat and happy Spurs fan always wanting more. HOW CAN YOU BLAME ME? We're used to excellence. Bar none.
I apologize again for the misread. And yeah, it is sort of an optical illusion regarding Parker's defense. When he gets scored on, it's more obvious than any other position so it stands out. There's a lot of switching with the swingmen and the bigmen but Parker usually sticks on the point guard, so when the opposing point guard scores it stands out more.
Parker can definitely play better defense than he's playing right now. But he usually only plays his top level defense in the playoffs. In the regular season, he's probably somewhere around the 8th to 12th best defending PG in the league.
The whole point is that Tony Parker can play a lot better on the defensive end than he has been lately. That Nash point is invalid because everyone knows he's not a good defender. Tony can play great defense when he focuses on it.
I don't care at all about his offensive struggles because that will come back. No problem there.
If TP, Manu and the new guys really focus on defense we can get back to being a really good team. Try to get beat less out on the perimeter so TD doesn't have to leave his man to help cover yours. That should be what all the perimeter players are trying to do.
I see where you're going with this ducks. but no!hope he's a spur 4 life!
You need to adjust the stats for pace, considering the Spurs are at the bottom of the barrel in that department. A more meaningful stat would be points against per 100 possessions.
Chalmers, Heat - 16.7
Parker, Spurs - 16.8
Rose, Bulls - 17.2
Davis, Clippers - 17.8
Felton, Bobcats - 18.0
Billups, Nuggets - 18.1
Blake, Blazers - 18.1
Watson, Warriors - 18.1
Ford, Pacers - 18.6
Alston, Rockets - 19.0
Udrih, Kings - 19.5
Fisher, Lakers - 19.7
Calderon, Raptors - 20.0
Miller, 76ers - 20.2
Conley, Memphis - 20.3
Rondo, Celtics - 20.3
Bibby, Hawks - 20.4
Harris, Nets - 20.5
Nash, Suns - 20.9
Duhon, Knicks - 21.1
Williams, Jazz - 21.1
Nelson, Magic - 21.7
Kidd, Mavs - 21.7
Paul, Hornets - 22.1
Ridnour, Bucks - 22.1
Watson, Thunder - 22.3
Foye, T'Wolves - 22.3
Williams, Cavs - 22.5
Dixon, Wizards - 22.6
Stuckey, Pistons - 29.1
Not exactly a huge difference. Parker still grades out well, especially considering that Chalmers and Rose spend a lot more time defending shooting guards.
Adjusting for pace in this scenario doesn't make much logical sense. If a point guard is good at getting back on defense and slowing down the opposition, he gets penalized.
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