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  1. #176
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    Yes it was. For about 300+ years, Mithraism was the most popular and was OFFICIAL religion of the Empire.
    link?

  2. #177
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    Here is a picture of Mithras



    Familiar? Very familiar?


    As for link, just do a quick google yourself... here's wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras

    "By the third century, Mithraism was officially sanctioned by the Roman emperors.[18] According to the fourth century Historia Augusta, Commodus participated in its mysteries: Sacra Mithriaca homicidio vero polluit, illic aliquid ad speciem timoris vel dici vel fingi soleat "He desecrated the rites of Mithras with actual murder, although it was customary in them merely to say or pretend something that would produce an impression of terror".[19]"

  3. #178
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    Was the Roman Inquisition really designed to stamp out ancient Greek, Egyptian, or Persian gods? It seems to me those belief systems were long gone by the time the inquisitions rolled around.

    Why is that?
    The Inquisition is just a later stage campaign. It was going on for CENTURIES.

    "Christianity spread all over the Roman empire and Eastern Europe by massive persecution and brought and end to a variety of religions that flourished there."


    Here we are in 2008, and we are victims of misinformation and corruption of our ancestors. We actually believe some guy named Jesus walked on water. Horrible, the things humans do to each other.

  4. #179
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    +1 The fact is that B2B and MiamiHeat and all other non-believers cannot prove that God does not exist no matter how blue in the face they get trying to prove a point that cannot be proven.
    No but I have proved the orgins of Jesus and the bible. I even used a mathematical calendar thats 100% accurate and verifiable. By proving the orgins of modern religion and proving the basis for what Jesus was created on I did 100% prove that the god you worship is based in astrological myth.

    I did not however prove that there isn't some type of higher power. There may very well be. I simply proved that your modern day religion is rooted in myth not reality.

    My point was never to disprove a "godlike" higher power but to disprove the modern day religion and Jesus.

    I don't see how you can deny every single significant date in Jesus's life being perfectly mirrored within the pagan calendar. Dec. 25th is Dec 25th whether you want to believe it or not its there and its not opinion or theory. Its right there for you to read. Along with every other significant date such as easter, the ressurection, passover and so forth. Every single date rooted in time long before the myth you believe. How do you deny a mathematically provable calculator in the form of a calendar. Blatant disregard for reality.

  5. #180
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    Here is a picture of Mithras



    Familiar? Very familiar?


    As for link, just do a quick google yourself... here's wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras

    "By the third century, Mithraism was officially sanctioned by the Roman emperors.[18] According to the fourth century Historia Augusta, Commodus participated in its mysteries: Sacra Mithriaca homicidio vero polluit, illic aliquid ad speciem timoris vel dici vel fingi soleat "He desecrated the rites of Mithras with actual murder, although it was customary in them merely to say or pretend something that would produce an impression of terror".[19]"
    Been there....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitraism

    Being 'sanctioned' as a religion, does not identify it as the official religion of the Roman Empire. It simply means the emperors recognized it as a valid religion, which was then rescinded by the end of the third century. Fringe religion...at best.

    That's besides the point anyway. Why is the Jesus version of the story the one that stuck, even prior to the Inquisition?

  6. #181
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    It was the most popular religion of it's time, There is no denying Mithraism was THE most popular, practiced by it's Emperors and the populace.

    I already wrote up there :

    The Inquisition is just a later stage campaign. It was going on for CENTURIES.

    "Christianity spread all over the Roman empire and Eastern Europe by massive persecution and brought an end to a variety of religions that flourished there."

  7. #182
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    It was the most popular religion of it's time, There is no denying Mithraism was THE most popular, practiced by it's Emperors and the populace.
    You have provided NOTHING to support that opinion.

    I already wrote up there :

    The Inquisition is just a later stage campaign. It was going on for CENTURIES.

    "Christianity spread all over the Roman empire and Eastern Europe by massive persecution and brought and end to a variety of religions that flourished there."

    Christianity also survived persecution, starting with Nero. Why does the Jesus story survive, while other stories did not?

  8. #183
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    Question (just a question)...why is Jesus the one that stuck?
    Because he was the most modern.


    JC: I want to clear something up. I don't think any of us are attempting to prove that "god" doesn't exist. We have and in a mul ude of ways proven that Jesus was a physical persona of many gods before him. All those gods that MH listed are rooted by date within the pagan calendar which is rooted in astrology. This isn't theory because you can mathematically verify the calendars authenticity to the cellestial bodies which are the basis for the personification of these gods...well before Jesus. We have provided you with facts. Verifiable facts that aren't opinion or theory. The facts are so good you can take a calculator and an astrologists and verify its claims of date and time. 2+2=4 is just at mathematically provable as the entire calendar. I don't know how else to tell you.

    Not one time have said that we've proved god wasn't real we said that modern day religion and the basis of you worship is myth. Whether there is a higher power or not has yet to be determined but at this point the facts are there that provided you with proof that modern day Christianity and other religions aren't reality.

  9. #184
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    Furthermore why does it matter that the story stuck. Other gods stuck just as long or longer. The real question you should be asking is why nearly every single date of significants mirrors a mul ude of gods well before the name Jesus was ever mentioned. Everything Jesus has done or experienced was done before him. Then the next question is why is that. All of which is explained pretty well in this thread.

    As society evolves the ability to organize over larger areas have evolved. The ability of communication evolves. Intelligence evolves. This is why modern day organized religion has done as well as it has.

    10 people preaching something has little value but 10,000 organized people preaching something carries much more weight. Obviously there is more to it but there is some simplicity behind it.

  10. #185
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    CHRISTIANITY was chosen by Constantine to unite the Roman Empire, who at this time was suffering from invasions of barbarians and significant losses in battles.

    from the wiki page:

    "Mithraism disappeared from overt practice after the Theodosian decree of 391 banned all pagan rites, and it apparently became extinct thereafter."

    Theodosian helped stamp the rest out.

    ---------------------------------
    http://www.gangleri.nl/articles/30/s...bout-mithraism

    When the torchbearers are the equinoxes, Mithras represents the sols iae. His ‘birthday’ is celebrated at the winter-solstice. At that time the days is at its shortest, the night at it lengthiest, so the celebration is the return of the light(god): Mithras. Since Mithraism was a serious opponent of the young church of Christianity, Christianity executed its usual tactique, the feast of the “Sol Invictus” (invincible sun) became Christmas, the birth of Christ. In contradiction with holy pagan places and temples, Mithraeums were not Christianised or overbuild, but smashed to pieces. This caused most remains to be heavily damaged. The Christians did their job so ‘good’, that nowadays we don’t know too much about Mithraism.


    ----------------------------------------------

    About Mithraism's popularity :

    Only MEN are allowed to practice. Therefore it's already at a disadvantage to the new copycat Christianity that allows all to practice

    -------------------------------------------

    Answers.com

    Mithraism
    A religious cult that worshiped Mithras, especially popular among the Roman military and a strong rival to Christianity during the late Roman Empire.

    -----------------------------------
    http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/romanempire.html

    Mithraism

    One of the most popular religions of the Roman Empire, especially among Roman soldiers, was Mithraism.

    -------------------------

  11. #186
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    When the torchbearers are the equinoxes, Mithras represents the sols iae. His ‘birthday’ is celebrated at the winter-solstice. At that time the days is at its shortest, the night at it lengthiest, so the celebration is the return of the light(god): Mithras. Since Mithraism was a serious opponent of the young church of Christianity,Christianity executed its usual tactique, the feast of the “Sol Invictus” (invincible sun) became Christmas, the birth of Christ. In contradiction with holy pagan places and temples, Mithraeums were not Christianised or overbuild, but smashed to pieces. This caused most remains to be heavily damaged. The Christians did their job so ‘good’, that nowadays we don’t know too much about Mithraism.

    I want to point out the significance of the above. Mithra mirrored Christianity only Mithra predated Christ (obviously) which is why it was so threatening. The dates of significance such as the birth of christ, winter-solstice and so on are depicted in the pagan calendar. Every date of significance is laid out in the calendar. This is where these gods were originated. They took the dates and correlated them to astrological timepieces/eras and personified them in the likeness of humans.

    We've all heard of our ancestors worshiping the stars. This explains how that originated.

    the days is at its shortest, the night at it lengthiest, so the celebration is the return of the light(god)
    Seasons, earth rotation, light vs. dark. All rooted in early time thousands of years before organized religion ever took those dates and times for their own.

  12. #187
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    Furthermore why does it matter that the story stuck. Other gods stuck just as long or longer. The real question you should be asking is why nearly every single date of significants mirrors a mul ude of gods well before the name Jesus was ever mentioned. Everything Jesus has done or experienced was done before him. Then the next question is why is that. All of which is explained pretty well in this thread.
    Long before the existance of Osiris, Dionysis, or any other Jesusesque story, prophesies of a forthcoming messiah had been told for quite some time, including his birth, death, and ressurrection. Including the performing of miracles. Including his virgin birth. It's not like anyone of these gods and their followers were the creators of their own story. They just tried to fill in the blanks in their own way. Jesus' story has survived and remained because it's actually true, do ented by historical evidence.


    As society evolves the ability to organize over larger areas have evolved. The ability of communication evolves. Intelligence evolves. This is why modern day organized religion has done as well as it has.

    10 people preaching something has little value but 10,000 organized people preaching something carries much more weight. Obviously there is more to it but there is some simplicity behind it.
    Of course. The more people support something, the more credibility is has. I do think that modern religion has distorted a lot of what is suppossed to be followed.

    Simply put, one who claims to be a Christian must follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is those who claim to be Christian but do not following Christ's teachings who have done more damage to the cause of Christ than anything else.

    The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.

    — Brennan Manning

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    Of course.
    This is why Light = Good and Darkness = Evil

    During the night, humans can't see and we are cold. In our distant past, we were scared of predators and victims of the harsh cold. Watch SURVIVORMAN or talk to any survivalist and ask them how IMPORTANT it is to stay warm and find shelter during the night.


    Please come and save us, light of the world!

    Ancients were very happy when the Sun came to illuminate the Darkness.


    Here is another little fact

    The planet VENUS, is known as "Son of the Morning", Lucifer. Lucifer was Satan's name as an Angel.

    Venus appears as a bright light in the sky right before the Sun rises each day. Therefore, he 'heralds' God's coming.

    However, after Lucifer's fall, he is now known as Satan, the son of the dawn. Bringer of darkness. He who heralds the DAWN of the Sun and darkness upon the world.

  14. #189
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    Long before the existance of Osiris,, prophesies of a forthcoming messiah had been told for quite some time, including his birth, death, and ressurrection.
    [/I]
    What? Show me where. YOU HAVE PROVIDED NO PROOF OF THIS.

    You do realize Osiris PRE-DATES Judaism, right? The prophecy I assume you are talking about is from the Jewish religion. I don't think you seem to understand how badly Osiris pre-dates this.

  15. #190
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    All of these religions are one and the same.

    The cast of characters change names and the details are tweaked around, but it's the same story used by politicians and priests to help them stay in power and rule the human race.

  16. #191
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    Long before the existance of Osiris, Dionysis, or any other Jesusesque story, prophesies of a forthcoming messiah had been told for quite some time, including his birth, death, and ressurrection. Including the performing of miracles. Including his virgin birth. It's not like anyone of these gods and their followers were the creators of their own story. They just tried to fill in the blanks in their own way. Jesus' story has survived and remained because it's actually true, do ented by historical evidence.



    I'm going to address two things here.

    They just tried to fill in the blanks in their own way
    They filled in the blanks nearly identically as Jesus. Right down to the exact dates of significant moments such as birth, death, ressurection, passover so on and so forth. So it wasn't some fabricated way to fill in the blanks. The blanks as you call them were filled exactly the same way right down to the exact dates rooted in cellestial time pieces.

    Jesus' story has survived and remained because it's actually true, do ented by historical evidence.
    There is far more do ented evidence of previous worship and its orgins than any tangible evidence of Jesus. As a matter of fact the one universal flaw in his existence is the astounding lack of evidence. There were known historians from his era all of which have seemingly left him out.

    So this begs the question.

    What evidence are you refering to? What historical evidence are you speaking of?

    The bible?

    I know that lots of thumpers like to use the bible as historical record but the simple fact of the matter is that there is no proof of any biblical word dating back to the time of chirst. It appeared hundreds of years later.

    As far as historical record goes the dates and happenings that mirror Christ appeared in historical writings on rocks and walls in provable era's of time thousands of years before his existence referencing many dieties before him.

  17. #192
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    What? Show me where. YOU HAVE PROVIDED NO PROOF OF THIS.

    You do realize Osiris PRE-DATES Judaism, right? The prophecy I assume you are talking about is from the Jewish religion. I don't think you seem to understand how badly Osiris pre-dates this.
    I'm not talking about the time it was WRITTEN, I'm talking about the time it was spoken.

    Osiris was first referenced somewhere around 2500 BC. Enoch (one of the first to prophecy of a Messiah) was born some 1200 years earlier in 3700 BC. So, yes, the propecies existed long before Osiris allegedly did.

  18. #193
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    1) Still waiting for proof of the prophecy with

    "including his birth, death, and ressurrection. Including the performing of miracles. Including his virgin birth"

    You don't have any.

    2) Show me where Enoch actually existed. You better not source the Bible. As far as I know, that's the only place he exists. There are several apocryphal books named "Book of Enoch" but they don't even date to the Egyptian times. They are said to have been written after the 2nd century AD.


    And even that wouldn't explain why all of the celebrations, dates, and rituals coincide with significant astrological events in the sky. Just forms of Sun worship.

    Can you blame our ancestors? The Sun brought life, warmth, food.
    Last edited by MiamiHeat; 12-29-2008 at 11:17 AM.

  19. #194
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    did it ever accure to any of you that maybe every sence everyone has been taking god out of everything that this world has been spiraling out of control....if you cant see whats going on around you then i feel sorry for you. i mean really, think about how the world is turning out. and its funny how there were things writen in the bible hundreds of years ago that are happening today....gee how could that be??? i guess they were using scince to come up with that back then. gee i just dont know. all i know is that keeping god in my life makes me a better person all around. dont you think that if everyone had god in there life that this would be like heven?? i think you know what is bad and what is good so you tell me where bad and good come from and who's side your on?

  20. #195
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    did it ever accure to any of you that maybe every sence everyone has been taking god out of everything that this world has been spiraling out of control....if you cant see whats going on around you then i feel sorry for you. i mean really, think about how the world is turning out. and its funny how there were things writen in the bible hundreds of years ago that are happening today....gee how could that be??? i guess they were using scince to come up with that back then. gee i just dont know. all i know is that keeping god in my life makes me a better person all around. dont you think that if everyone had god in there life that this would be like heven?? i think you know what is bad and what is good so you tell me where bad and good come from and who's side your on?



    And some of you wonder how people like this believe that a man walked on water?

  21. #196
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    I actually normally just read and don't comment much because religion is a personal matter but then again I'm not ashamed of my religion either. But I do enjoy reading the many views and thoughts of others and I sure can understand how many have their own beliefs and think religion is a total joke and lie. I just happen to disagree that is all.
    It doesn't bother me some think I'm an idiot for what I believe in or mock my religion and I don't think any less of them.
    I believe in God and Jesus Christ and I'm Catholic and that's my story and I'm sticking with it.
    Oh, and I'm not trolling as hard as it may be for some to believe....amongst other things.

  22. #197
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    Here are few blurbs and then some additional information surrounding his existence. I doubt you guys are capable of reading through all of this.

    The existence of Jesus as an actual historical figure has been questioned by a few scholars and historians, some of the earliest being Constantin-François Volney and Charles François Dupuis in the 18th century and Bruno Bauer in the 19th century. Each of these proposed that the Jesus character was a fusion of earlier mythologies.

    The views of scholars who entirely rejected Jesus' historicity were summarized in Will Durant's Caesar and Christ, published in 1944. Their rejections were based on a suggested lack of eyewitnesses, a lack of direct archaeological evidence, the failure of ancient works to mention Jesus, and similarities early Christianity shares with then-contemporary religion and mythology.
    No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All do ents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources derive from hearsay accounts.

    Hearsay means information derived from other people rather than on a witness' own knowledge.
    The editing and formation of the Bible came from members of the early Christian Church. Since the fathers of the Church possessed the texts and determined what would appear in the Bible, there occurred plenty of opportunity and motive to change, modify, or create texts that might bolster the position of the Church or the members of the Church themselves.

    Take, for example, Eusebius who served as an ecclesiastical church historian and bishop. He had great influence in the early Church and he openly advocated the use of fraud and deception in furthering the interests of the Church [Remsberg]. The first mention of Jesus by Josephus came from Eusebius (none of the earlier church fathers mention Josephus' Jesus). It comes to no surprise why many scholars think that Eusebius interpolated his writings. In his Ecclesiastical History, he writes, "We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity." (Vol. 8, chapter 2). In his Praeparatio Evangelica, he includes a chapter led, "How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived" (book 12, chapter 32).
    Here is some legitimate historical record from within 100 years of Jesus existence. So we are talking about less than a century of what is supposed to be the greatest following of a single man. Even the closest historical records are void of any tangible proof.

    Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E., well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus, puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

    Pliny the Younger, a Roman official, got born in 62 C.E. His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his information from Christian believers themselves. Regardless, his birth date puts him out of the range of eyewitness accounts.

    Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

    Suetonius, a Roman historian, born in 69 C.E. mentions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume that "Chrestus" means "Christ" (a disputable claim). But even if Seutonius had meant "Christ," it still says nothing about an earthly Jesus. Just like all the others, Suetonius' birth occurred well after the purported Jesus. Again, only hearsay.

    Talmud: Amazingly some Christians use brief portions of the Talmud, (a collection of Jewish civil a religious law, including commentaries on the Torah), as evidence for Jesus. They claim that Yeshu (a common name in Jewish literature) in the Talmud refers to Jesus. However, this Jesus, according to Gerald Massey actually depicts a disciple of Jehoshua Ben-Perachia at least a century before the alleged Christian Jesus. [Massey] Regardless of how one interprets this, the Palestinian Talmud got written between the 3rd and 5th century C.E., and the Babylonian Talmud between the 3rd and 6th century C.E., at least two centuries after the alleged crucifixion! At best it can only serve as a controversial Christian and pagan legend; it cannot possibly serve as evidence for a historical Jesus.

    The Shroud of Turin

    The first mention of the shroud comes from a treatise (written or dictated) by Geoffroi de Charny in 1356 and who claims to have owned the cloth (see The Book of Chivalry of Geoffroi De Charny). Later, in the 16th century, it suddenly appeared in a cathedral in Turin, Italy. (Note that thousands of claimed Jesus relics appeared in cathedrals throughout Europe, including the wood from the cross, chalices, blood of Jesus, etc. These artifacts proved popular and served as a prosperous commercial device which filled the money coffers of the churches.)

    Sadly, many people of faith believe that there actually exists scientific evidence to support their beliefs in the shroud's authenticity. Considering how the Shroud's apologists use the words, "science," "fact," and "authentic," without actual scientific justification, and even include pseudo-scientists (without mentioning the 'pseudo') to testify to their conclusions, it should not come to any surprise why a faithful person would not question their information or their motives. Television specials have also appeared that purport the authenticity of the shroud. Science, however, does not operate though television specials who have a commercial interest and have no qualms about deceiving the public.

    Experts around the world consider the 14-foot-long linen sheet, which has remained in a cathedral in Turin since 1578, a forgery because of carbon-dating tests performed in 1988. Three different independent radiocarbon dating laboratories in Zurich, Oxford and the University of Arizona yielded a date range of 1260-1390 C.E. (consistent with the time period of Charny's claimed ownership). Joe Zias of Hebrew University of Jerusalem calls the shroud indisputably a fake. "Not only is it a forgery, but it's a bad forgery." The shroud actually depicts a man whose front measures 2 inches taller than his back and whose elongated hands and arms would indicate that he had the affliction of gigantism if he actually lived. (Also read Joe Nickell's, Inquest On The Shroud Of Turin: Latest Scientific Findings)
    The pre-Christian cult of Mithra had a deity of light and truth, son of the Most High, fought against evil, presented the idea of the Logos. Pagan Mithraism mysteries had the burial in a rock tomb, resurrection, sacrament of bread & water (Eucharist), the marking on the forehead with a mystic mark, the symbol of the Rock, the Seven Spirits and seven stars, all before the advent of Christianity.

    Even Justin Martyr recognized the analogies between Christianity and Paganism. To the Pagans, he wrote: "When we say that the Word, who is first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)." [First Apology, ch. xxi]

    Virtually all of the mythical accounts of a savior Jesus have parallels to past pagan mythologies which existed long before Christianity and from the Jewish scriptures that we now call the Old Testament. The accounts of these myths say nothing about historical reality, but they do say a lot about believers, how they believed, and how their beliefs spread
    If the man was so widely followed why is there zero writings dated at the time of his existence referencing him?

  23. #198
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    And some of you wonder how people like this believe that a man walked on water?
    From what I can tell you think you walk on water.

  24. #199
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    They filled in the blanks nearly identically as Jesus. Right down to the exact dates of significant moments such as birth, death, ressurection, passover so on and so forth. So it wasn't some fabricated way to fill in the blanks. The blanks as you call them were filled exactly the same way right down to the exact dates rooted in cellestial time pieces.
    I may be alone here, but I find the dates on which the events are celebrated to be irrelevant. It's highly likely (in fact, probable) that the dates we have decided to celebrate Christ's birth and resurrection are right in line with cellestial time pieces. That really does little (or nothing, actually) to produce evidence that they didn't actually happen. Only that they probably didn't happen on the dates we celebrate them.

    I mean, we celebrated Washington's birthday on January 21st this year, and his actual birthday was February 22nd. Does that mean he was never born?

    So this begs the question.

    What evidence are you refering to? What historical evidence are you speaking of?

    The bible?

    I know that lots of thumpers like to use the bible as historical record but the simple fact of the matter is that there is no proof of any biblical word dating back to the time of chirst. It appeared hundreds of years later.
    Why exclude the gospels as historical evidence? What about the epistles of Paul which were written within 10-20 years of the crucifixion? The writers of these accounts say they are eyewitnesses to the facts, and provide abundant geographical and cultural details.

    What evidence has been produced to disprove the accuracy of the gospels or the epistles?

    As far as historical record goes the dates and happenings that mirror Christ appeared in historical writings on rocks and walls in provable era's of time thousands of years before his existence referencing many dieties before him.
    There is historical evidence of the legend and worship of these gods, but is there historical evidence of their actual existence on earth? (I ask because I don't know)

  25. #200
    Believe.
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    NBA Team
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    And some of you wonder how people like this believe that a man walked on water?
    let me ask you this...do you think that when people die there spirit will die too?

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