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You are doing Christianity a dis-service. Please hit the books before enganging in these discussions.
B2B, if you think you can discredit Christianity simply by making some lose connection between Christian history and other ancient religions, then, as Chalupa has said more than once, your arguments are weak, at best.
Let me through some facts about Christianity into the discussion:
- There is very little doubt that Jesus was a man that walked the Earth in what we nowadays call modern Israel. His life is well do ented in the Gospels and in other non-Christian literary sources (the best known is a Jewish historian called Flavius Josephus, who mentions not only Jesus, but also Caiaphas, Pilate, John the Baptist, etc)
- Not only direct witnesses of Christ's life have left us their writings. Men who knew the Apostles (St Ignatius of Antioch, St Polycarp, St Irenaeus, etc) have also left writings that talk about Christ's teachings.
- How can it be explained that many of the people who heard Christ's teachings were willing to die for them?
- The NT was writen by ignorant fishermen. How have this handful of fishermen been able to dupe so many people for so many years?
You are doing Christianity a dis-service. Please hit the books before enganging in these discussions.
The point you fail to understand is that the dates themselves don't matter. Most Christians know that Jesus was not born on Dec 25th or that he was crucified on the "3rd week of March". Many understand that the dates were standardized to suit the celebration - even borrowed from earlier 'Pagan' rituals existing during the time of the Roman Empire. As significant as you feel that may be... it doesn't 'corner', negate, or belittle the tenets of the Christian faith in any detrimental way...
Christians worship GOD and celebrate Christmas as a reminder of the Hope that Jesus' birth provided humanity.
Christians celebrate 'Easter' as a reminder of Christ's victory over death. A reminder that GOD did not hold anything back in His attempt to restore the relationship that he desired between Himself and mankind... even at the cost of His Son's life.
I am the real Slim Shady, all you other Slim Shady's is just imitatin'.
--MM
.... and you should know because you've asked them all.
Then why is it in the text books?
This coming from a man who gets on everyone's case when they try and post half truths about 9/11 all of a sudden you only need partial truth? I will remember this quote next time you complain about posting some tin foil hat theory as you call them.
As for the many links to prove prehistoric Evolution, DNA, and fossils you guys have been teaching that crap for years and get funded by the government ovcourse there are going to be many more links and info on the subject, But just because there are more links to pictures of Unicorns than there are of Dead Jews doesn't mean it's any more real or the truth.
Your one to really insist on the facts and yet your willing to ruin your highly educated reputation here at ST defending a bag like Darwin?
Ok it's your call but at the end you will have nothing but old re-fried lies that have been de-bunked over and over as the new evidence shows how misguided you and and your GOD hating Igmo's are fighting a lost cause.
I have the truth on my side.
Last edited by mouse; 12-30-2008 at 12:36 PM.
That is because the "geologic column" is a teaching tool...
You can't make this up. Are you for real?
What the are you talking about?
It means it has been proven wrong time and time again. Why is it still in the schools? Just because I have a teaching tool that helps you remove a gerbil from your ass doesn't mean you want it found under your bed.That is because the "geologic column" is a teaching tool...
You can't make this up. Are you for real?
I've got a God correlation. In my pants.
Just general knowledge bud...
Evolution is a theory at best and has never been proven so it's more of a religion, and you brain washed sheep want it taught in schools? You guys can post all the links your little keyboards can find at the end you will have nothing that proves your right you will only prove your ignorance.
If not for Manny you wouldn't even have a missing link.
Do you always claim general knowledge about the exact beliefs of 1,000,000,000+ people?
I would be willing to bet that you are wrong about this. I would bet that that vast majority of Christians world-wide truly think that December 25th is exactly the birthday of Jesus.
"general knowledge" seems to be code words for "I pulled it out of my ass." in my experience.
Bend over kid, and I'll show you my teaching tool.
Actually the Hebrew word is "Mazzaroth," but that doesn't sound as close. "Nazareth" probably comes from a Hebrew root word meaning "sprout."
So you believe in the 9-11 fairy AND creationism?
That explains why you would ask "why is a teaching tool in a text book?"
dur dee dur....
Listen Rainman, I'm glad you have some sort of belief system that makes you happy, but please stop pretending your bull is gold.
The rest of us can smell it from here.
There is plenty of bull in this thread.So you believe in the 9-11 fairy AND creationism?
That explains why you would ask "why is a teaching tool in a text book?"
dur dee dur....
Listen Rainman, I'm glad you have some sort of belief system that makes you happy, but please stop pretending your bull is gold.
The rest of us can smell it from here.
Do you even realize how ridiculous you sound? You ridicule someone for saying that most christians know that December 25th is not the exact date of Jesus' birth, then you make the statement above! So how is it your statement is any more rooted in truth than Phenomanul's?
You screen name is very appropriate - you come into this thread on page 19 and start making stupid comments - and we've gone all this time without innappropriate sexual remarks - until YOU come along. Please go back to the troll forum where your remarks are appreciated.
Listen Rainman,
That movie won an Oscar so I have no problem with your lame 1980s attempt at smack talking, it's kinda refreshing to see someone here still lives in the past with snappy come backs likewow that was fresh and very creative.bend over and I will show you my teaching tool!
Are you friends with Travis (local red neck) I bet you have pictures of all 5 of your dogs on your MySpace page.
You may want to mix in some facts about the subject with your many original top of the line insults you have so the topic can stay on course.
Whatever helps you sleep at night... either way there's no way of polling that many people... Your own presumption is flawed in the other direction, by the same principle. So even if I conceded on the technicality that no one can speak for all Christendom, it doesn't change the basic premise of my response to B2B.
The dates themselves don't matter...
Yet he and MH want us all to believe that the notion of shared/common 'holy' days somehow negates the authenticity of Christianity. Weak.
Most everything that MH posted was debunked by Lee Strobel in The Case for the Real Jesus. Everything else MH has sputtered since then, has been a lame attempt at justifying his reasons for having believed in his original (cut/paste) list in the first place; all of this without having conducted any research of his own.
Originally Christians celebrated the Pascha on 14 Nisan, then some decided to celebrate it on the following Sunday. Observance of the Eucharist on Sunday was adopted early on by Jewish Christians before the fall of Jerusalem who would go to the Temple on the Sabbath, and then meet with the other Christians for the Eucharist the following day, since they believed that Sunday was the day of the Resurrection.
Over time, Jewish observance of the Passover varied from community to community, with some groups even holding it before the spring equinox. This variability, along with a developing anti-Semitic at ude that Christians should not be relying on the Jews for their festival dates, ultimately culminated in the decision at the Council of Nicea setting the date of Easter. For a while, that responsibility ultimately fell to the Patriarch of Alexandria, and in Eastern Orthodoxy still does. Western Christianity uses the Gregorian calendar for liturgical purposes, and its date for Easter differs from the Orthodox date by one to five weeks.
One possible etymology for Easter is that it simply adopts the old Gothic name for the month of April, which was named after the pagan fertility goddess. Another is that it is related to an ancient name for the Morning Star (cf. Rev 22:16). Another is that is derived from an ancient Germanic word for "white" and that Easter was called something like "White Sunday."The name, "Easter" is derived from a pagan spring / fertility deity who appears variously as Eostre, the Saxon goddess of dawn with a hare's head (the origin of Easter bunnies), Ishtar from Ninevah, introduced into Britain with the Druids, Astarte the queen of heaven from Babylon whose worship involved sexual depravity! (The egg figures prominently in the worship of Easter - Astarte was said to have sprung from an Egg which fell from Heaven into the Euphrates) Even the fast of Lent which was introduce in the sixth century was borrowed from Babylon. A similar fast was observed by the Egyptians in commemoration of Osiris.
The spring imgery of bunnies and eggs are indeed handed down from old Germanic paganism. In Latin and Eastern countries, paschal traditions are different and the holiday is elevated above Christmas.
A lot of American folk traditions, whether tied to Christianity or not, are very, very much tied to the traditions of the Germanic peoples from Germany, the Netherlands, Scandinavia, and England. However, they cannot be generalized to global Christendom.
Some Christians celebrated it earlier than that, but it was largely to "fit in."Christmas was not celebrated until the fourth century. The date of 25th December was fixed by the Council of Nicea to take over the pagan midwinter solstice festival of sol invictus (unconquered sun). It also conveniently took over the Roman winter festival of Saturnalia; December 17-21st. There were pragmatic reasons for this but it taints the celebration of our Saviour's birth with pagan symbols and customs.
Sunday was observed as the day of meeting for the Eucharist quite early, as I mentioned above. The original sources reflect some diversity of practice among the early church.Shabbat, The Saturday Sabbath was observed by the early church and was kept in Britain until around the twelfth century. The celebration of a Sunday Sabbath (even as "resurrection day" ) was never commanded in scripture. The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was another victim of the state controlled church's desire to cut away from Jewish roots. Shabbat was the sign of the LORD's chosen and faithful people, the one which marked out the Jews for persecution down through the ages.
Now you've boiled it down to just general thematic similarities. You have prophecies based upon calculations on a calendar. You have the general themes of birth, death, and rebirth throughout civilizations. You have the observance of those themes in the passing of the seasons.So using math you can accurately go back and make significant correlations with a mul ude of different calendars depicting scores of important time periods, years, eras, seasons and so. All of which had their own special "god" or personification.
Since we find similarities between these personifications we see the pattern. Very little about Jesus was original. Most dates and moments of significance correlate to a personified god or time, era, season, year and so on.
Everything we have about Jesus is lifted from another source (god or time structure). There is zero first hand writings and everything thats referenced is a copy of a copy of a copy so much to the point that the very church which supports its cause questions authenticity. I've posted previously in this thread where the church has waited years, decades and centuries before authenticating bodies of work due to uncertainty.
How can you site sources that the church finds questionable or has admittedly altered to fit modern Christianity?
We can argue specifics about each and every god but the correlations still go back to time and math in relation to many variations of ancient calendars personifying points of interest.
So arguing the specifics of each god is competely irrelevant when it all boils down to mathematical time rooted in calendars long before the mathematical time pieces where used in the name of Jesus.
Maybe for a skeptic, this just looks like a version of nature worship tarted up with a few millenia worth of trappings. For the Christian, it looks like creation itself testifies to the fulfillment of the Gospel.
And so you've arrived at another impasse.
I have to go to the VA in a few minutes but I will leave RandomLie and his heathen pals a heads up.
Scientist have claimed for many years stalac es take millions of years to form
and yet they have been found in many places not even 60 years old.
So much for your half baked facts!
So they plagarized work that hadn't even existed? Great job.
So with so much proof via copies of copies of copies and zero first hand accounts and zero physical items this great leader was relegated to "standardized dates" and borrowed pagan rituals?
Why no definative celebration?
How do you explain the mathematics being as precise as it pertains to the big picture which predated his existence?
How are dates and times that correlate well before the mans existence have no value?
Isn't that the equivelant to a murder conviction despite a lack of true cause of death, weapon, blood and body. Billy did it because John said Rick said James said it was done.
How do you explain the church reserving judgement on the authenticity of the very texts you cite?
I appreciate your response. One of the few I respect here. The thematics are a pattern rooted in math. I know you read the math pertaining to certain events. I understand that no math, no correlation, no lack of tangible evidence or first hand accounts matter. I understand that your own church questioning the orgins authenticity means nothing and I understand that hearsay is more reliable when it envolves Jesus but no other.
I keep saying that I'm nearing the end of this discussion.
I'll never ever understand how Christians can tell me that dates, time and math are of no important consequence.
You're right there is no response to that.
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