Is there a God?

[Extra Stout]

I appreciate your response. One of the few I respect here. The thematics are a pattern rooted in math. I know you read the math pertaining to certain events. I understand that no math, no correlation, no lack of tangible evidence or first hand accounts matter. I understand that your own church questioning the orgins authenticity means nothing and I understand that hearsay is more reliable when it envolves Jesus but no other.

I keep saying that I'm nearing the end of this discussion.

I'll never ever understand how Christians can tell me that dates, time and math are of no important consequence.

You're right there is no response to that.

I'm scrolling through the thread looking for a post where you go through the unreliability of the Gospel accounts and how every story is tied to an earlier narrative. I say this because I'm familiar with the arguments of the skeptic scholar who makes them, but I never saw you flesh them out. You only fleshed out the Jesus/Horus ones which are specious at best and mendacious at worst.

So you came to the honest skeptic's conclusion without giving the argument. That's fine, you can google and post it later.

Anyway, I'll answer the arguments you are probably going to make ahead of time. I think any orthodox Christian would agree that much of the Gospel account(s) can be cobbled together from Old Testament passages which otherwise would seem to be taken totally out of context. There are plenty of instances where an account of Jesus' life seems to echo an earlier Jewish narrative. To the skeptic, this might look like a Jesus legend was synthesized out of earlier Jewish material. To the Christian, this looks like fulfillment of prophecy. Even the Gospel of Luke itself portrays Jesus as using the OT to show the prophecies about himself.

[Crookshanks]

So they plagarized work that hadn't even existed? Great job.

Herein lies the fundamental difference between believers and non-believers. We believe God created the world and the human race started with Adam and Eve. Because of their sin in the Garden of Eden, they were cursed and separated from God. God's plan of redemption came into being at this point. The first mention of Jesus is in Genesis Chapter 3 - so you see, from our viewpoint, there is NOTHING before the mention of Jesus.

Now, let's fast forward to the time of Noah. The inhabitants of earth had become very wicked and turned away from worshipping God. So God decided to destroy the earth and all its inhabitants. But the bible says "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." So God told Noah to build the ark and the only people that were saved were Noah and his wife and their 3 sons and their wives. So, we can start from that point. It didn't take long for the descendants of Noah to again turn away from God and become very wicked.

This is where Pagan religions come from - the wickedness of man caused him to turn away from the one true God and make other "gods" to worship.

But again - this is a matter of faith and belief. If you don't believe the biblical account of the creation or the flood, then nothing we say will make sense to you. On the other hand, for those of us who DO believe the bible - the things you say are foolishness to us.

And never the twain shall meet...

[Extra Stout]

So with so much proof via copies of copies of copies and zero first hand accounts and zero physical items this great leader was relegated to "standardized dates" and borrowed pagan rituals?

I don't understand why this is a problem. The only "ritual" Jesus ins uted was the bread and wine. You can find some later traditions of other religions that copy the Eucharist, but not earlier ones.

Why no definative celebration?

From my understanding of Jesus' teaching, he was not particularly interested in ins uting a new series of rituals for people to follow. That is not really the central part of the Christian faith. There is no New Testament equivalent to Leviticus.

How do you explain the mathematics being as precise as it pertains to the big picture which predated his existence?

Well, you either have the possibility that somebody knew the math and manufactured its fulfillment, or you have the possibility that the prophecy was correct.

Isn't that the equivelant to a murder conviction despite a lack of true cause of death, weapon, blood and body. Billy did it because John said Rick said James said it was done.

How do you explain the church reserving judgement on the authenticity of the very texts you cite?

You are obliquely referring to some skeptic arguments here without really putting them forth. Are we back to the reliability of the New Testament again? The same old point about ancient texts applies: one cannot use a highly skeptical standard for the NT, but then take all other ancient do ents as totally reliable, especially since the NT is the best attested of them all by a comfortably wide margin.

And which church is debating the authenticity here? If we're talking about liberal protestants, then this whole point is moot because they don't really believe in Jesus except as a nice moralistic fable for their pet political beliefs anyway. Are you speaking perhaps on Richard John Neuhaus' refutation of Sola Scriptura vis-a-vis the teaching authority of the Church?

[BacktoBasics]

Herein lies the fundamental difference between believers and non-believers. We believe God created the world and the human race started with Adam and Eve. Because of their sin in the Garden of Eden, they were cursed and separated from God. God's plan of redemption came into being at this point. The first mention of Jesus is in Genesis Chapter 3 - so you see, from our viewpoint, there is NOTHING before the mention of Jesus.

Now, let's fast forward to the time of Noah. The inhabitants of earth had become very wicked and turned away from worshipping God. So God decided to destroy the earth and all its inhabitants. But the bible says "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." So God told Noah to build the ark and the only people that were saved were Noah and his wife and their 3 sons and their wives. So, we can start from that point. It didn't take long for the descendants of Noah to again turn away from God and become very wicked.

This is where Pagan religions come from - the wickedness of man caused him to turn away from the one true God and make other "gods" to worship.

But again - this is a matter of faith and belief. If you don't believe the biblical account of the creation or the flood, then nothing we say will make sense to you. On the other hand, for those of us who DO believe the bible - the things you say are foolishness to us.

And never the twain shall meet...

You don't make any sense. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by listening to you. People on your side have asked you to shut up because you aren't helping.

Just like Mouse I'm likely to not respond to your idiocy again until you bring something worthwhile to the table.

[Crookshanks]

Now you've boiled it down to just general thematic similarities. You have prophecies based upon calculations on a calendar. You have the general themes of birth, death, and rebirth throughout civilizations. You have the observance of those themes in the passing of the seasons.

Maybe for a skeptic, this just looks like a version of nature worship tarted up with a few millenia worth of trappings. For the Christian, it looks like creation itself testifies to the fulfillment of the Gospel.

Exactly! And here's an interesting part of the creation narrative. In Genesis 1:14, it says "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years." (emphasis mine)

So you see - God created the stars and the sun and moon not just for light. Also, in Psalm 19:1 it says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork."

The Pagan religions took what God created for HIS glory and twisted it to fit their own humanistic ideas.

[baseline bum]

Look again.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1248079.stm

My point was scientist say if a certain fossil is found that means that layer or age of the earth is yoda yoda yoda years old. They even gave a chart. But they have found many fossils that were discovered many years later on another level of earth so the fossil chart was just something a so called scientist created and has been used in the text books with no real study.

some species have been found alive today debunking the fossil record.

The fossil record speaks against classical Darwinian evolution, not in its favor. Where are all the transitional fossils? There should be billions of them in the earth if random processes led to major changes in species. Why don't we find them? (Hint: they never existed). Punctuated equilibrium, the "hopeful monster" theory and other similar ones just show how bankrupt the theory of evolution really is. You don't need evidence for a theory that by overwhelming political pressure is assumed to be true. Anything will do. As Hitler said, if you repeat a really big lie often enough many will believe it. Propaganda, dogmatic assertion by experts who all assume that other experts outside their field have proved the theory - these are the true keys to evolution's popularity.

In other words, you didn't watch the video Summers posted after she sat through your Hovind garbage.

[Crookshanks]

You don't make any sense. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by listening to you. People on your side have asked you to shut up because you aren't helping.

Just like Mouse I'm likely to not respond to your idiocy again until bring something worthwhile to the table.

EXCUUUUSE me! ONE person asked said I wasn't helping - and that person came to this discussion quite late and hasn't added much. And what I say makes just as much sense as your postings. You like to think you're so smart because you throw out mathematical formulas and "scientific" data - but it is all garbage and foolishness to believers - and that was the point of my post!!

And why doesn't my post make sense? If you believe the bible, then it makes perfect sense because the bible tells of the creation of the world and mankind. It doesn't make sense to you because you're a non-believer - AGAIN, that was the point of my earlier post!

[baseline bum]

MH -the "facts" you posted are so preposterous - they are hilarious and unbelievable! You ridicule Christians for our beliefs and then you bring up that garbage? I'll say it again - Jesus was and IS the original and ONLY true Christ - all these other "religions" are variations on the story of Jesus. It is the pagan religions that plagarized the story of Jesus, not the other way around!

Doesn't the bible say you shouldn't have other gods than Jehovah, or risk being put to death? Shouldn't worshiping Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Virgin Mary be a big no-no if you're going to believe the old testament?

[Extra Stout]

Doesn't the bible say you shouldn't have other gods than Jehovah, or risk being put to death? Shouldn't worshiping Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Virgin Mary be a big no-no if you're going to believe the old testament?

Hanging curveball.

[Crookshanks]

Doesn't the bible say you shouldn't have other gods than Jehovah, or risk being put to death? Shouldn't worshiping Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Virgin Mary be a big no-no if you're going to believe the old testament?

Yes, the bible does say that. However, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are part of the Trinity - one and the same with God. So worshipping Jesus is the same as worshipping God. I really don't know who worships the Holy Spirit - I certainly don't. And protestants DON"T worship Mary. We believe she was blessed by God in that he chose her to bear his son; but other than that, she was no different than any other woman. It's the catholics who exalt Mary - but that's a whole 'nother argument!

[baseline bum]

Now, let's fast forward to the time of Noah. The inhabitants of earth had become very wicked and turned away from worshipping God. So God decided to destroy the earth and all its inhabitants. But the bible says "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." So God told Noah to build the ark and the only people that were saved were Noah and his wife and their 3 sons and their wives. So, we can start from that point. It didn't take long for the descendants of Noah to again turn away from God and become very wicked.

So God is a sociopath?

[Extra Stout]

Yes, the bible does say that. However, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are part of the Trinity - one and the same with God. So worshipping Jesus is the same as worshipping God. I really don't know who worships the Holy Spirit - I certainly don't. And protestants DON"T worship Mary. We believe she was blessed by God in that he chose her to bear his son; but other than that, she was no different than any other woman. It's the catholics who exalt Mary - but that's a whole 'nother argument!

Foul down the left field line.

[baseline bum]

Yes, the bible does say that. However, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are part of the Trinity - one and the same with God. So worshipping Jesus is the same as worshipping God. I really don't know who worships the Holy Spirit - I certainly don't. And protestants DON"T worship Mary. We believe she was blessed by God in that he chose her to bear his son; but other than that, she was no different than any other woman. It's the catholics who exalt Mary - but that's a whole 'nother argument!

How can the trinity be the same and three distinct spirits at the same time? It makes no sense whatsoever.

[Phenomanul]

So they plagarized work that hadn't even existed? Great job.

So with so much proof via copies of copies of copies and zero first hand accounts and zero physical items this great leader was relegated to "standardized dates" and borrowed pagan rituals?

It was a strategy that allowed Constantine to try and 'establish' Christianity as the 'official religion' of the Roman Empire. A historical event that does nothing to change the message of Christ. It was a 'political' policy, not a spiritual one.

If only Constantine understood that Christ emphasized the importance of a personal relationship with GOD moreso than the half-hearted attachment to 'rituals, rites, and traditions of religion and the law' then he would have realized that his strategy, though seemingly effective, was counter-productive.

Why no definative celebration?

Because the "when" is not nearly as important as the "cause" for celebration.

How do you explain the mathematics being as precise as it pertains to the big picture which predated his existence?

I really don't know what you're trying to get at here... But the math of the stars is nothing new.

GOD set all the stars in motion. A precise clockwork if you may.

If the celestial alignment which announced Christ's birth was a long awaited sign, wouldn't that suggest that GOD was using the stars to convey this message? And that someone out there was waiting to see it? Furthermore, because stellar/planetary motion is bound to laws of motion that then suggests that this event could have been predicted? That other starry events can also be predicted. That it was set in motion from the get-go.

Not to be lost on the argument; if celestial motion is bound to precise laws couldn't we just "rewind" the night sky to find evidence for the Star of Bethlehem? Wouldn't that be enough extra-biblical evidence supporting that such an event transpired just as the Bible described it?

Robert Larson used that very concept to find evidence for the Star of Bethlehem.

http://www.bethlehemstar.net/stage/stage.htm

Unlike your sources... his entire thought process is posted; the basis for his claims is substantiated by the night sky itself.

How are dates and times that correlate well before the mans existence have no value?

Isn't that the equivelant to a murder conviction despite a lack of true cause of death, weapon, blood and body. Billy did it because John said Rick said James said it was done.

You make no sense.

Dates existed before Jesus birth. Big Deal.
Other false religions existed before Jesus birth. Big Deal.

How do you explain the church reserving judgement on the authenticity of the very texts you cite?

Which ones? The Bible? Ummm....

[JoeChalupa]

I appreciate your response. One of the few I respect here.
I'll never ever understand how Christians can tell me that dates, time and math are of no important consequence.

You're right there is no response to that.

Thanks for the respect. The reason you don't understand is that you don't have the faith. Simple.

[JoeChalupa]

It's the Catholics who exalt Mary - but that's a whole 'nother argument!

She is the Mother of Jesus and we don't "worship" her or exalt her but I do show her respect and do pray to the Virgen de Guadalupe from time to time.
I've heard this whole Catholics worship other than God line many, many times.

[baseline bum]

She is the Mother of Jesus and we don't "worship" her or exalt her but I do show her respect and do pray to the Virgen de Guadalupe from time to time.
I've heard this whole Catholics worship other than God line many, many times.

Where there's smoke, often there's fire. I was a devout Catcholic the first 18 years of my life, went to church 2-3 times a week, and practically all we ever did was pray to Mary. If she's not god, then why pray to her?

[RandomGuy]

I have to go to the VA in a few minutes but I will leave RandomLie and his heathen pals a heads up.

Scientist have claimed for many years stalac es take millions of years to form

(pictures omitted)

So much for your half baked facts!

"RandomLie" ?? That is truly the best riff done on my screen name that I have seen in the 5+ years I have been using it. Props.

For the rest of it:

If by "scientists" you mean the New Mexico Department of Tourism?

Heh.

"Scientists" say that "grow anywhere between a quarter-inch and an inch every century" (source linky dinky do)

Your happy fun picture doesn't have a scientist say ANYWHERE that the stalac es formed over millions of years.

The scanned brochure presumedly written by the New Mexico Department of Tourism says "the world's most awesome monument to the wonders of nature" was created by drips of water over millions of years.

The "awesome monument" being the system of caves, not any particular formation.

Further, the fact that some geologic processes take thousands of years in no way proves a young earth theory. It is a bit like saying "these two cakes took 4 minutes to bake, so NO cakes will EVER take more than 4 minutes to bake".

You would have to show that ALL geologic processes take thousands of years, for the weight of evidence to point to a 10,000 year old earth.

This would include processes like radioactive decay.

Creationists fiddle with trying to discredit carbon-14 dating. The accepted half-life of U-238 is 4.5 BILLION years, (source) and this is used to assess the dates of truly ancient rock formations.

I may grant you that there is room for error of a few thousand years for C-14, but you can't credibly tell me that the U-238 and similar dating of rocks is off by BILLIONS of years, and that all measurements done on samples for decades has produced spurious results.

Further, I would ask why God is being so sneaky, and even bothering to have any element with a half-life of billions or hundreds of billions of years when the universe is supposedly only 10,000 years. Why bother?

[DPG21920]

Where there's smoke, often there's fire. I was a devout Catcholic the first 18 years of my life, went to church 2-3 times a week, and practically all we ever did was pray to Mary. If she's not god, then why pray to her?

Why do people thank others when they accomplish things on their own? Like when an athlete wins an award and thanks his teammates; he could not do it his own.

[baseline bum]

Further, I would ask why God is being so sneaky, and even bothering to have any element with a half-life of billions or hundreds of billions of years when the universe is supposedly only 10,000 years. Why bother?

I think it's been established over and over that god is a mischievous . I blame it on the parents.

[RandomGuy]

In other words, you didn't watch the video Summers posted after she sat through your Hovind garbage.

Mouse does not watch anything that might burst his preconcieved notions.

He is kind of inconsiderate that way.

[Crookshanks]

She is the Mother of Jesus and we don't "worship" her or exalt her but I do show her respect and do pray to the Virgen de Guadalupe from time to time.
I've heard this whole Catholics worship other than God line many, many times.

Yes - it seems there was a VERY long thread talking about the very subject. As far as I'm concerned, the doctrine of salvation is all the matters; and, even though I'm a Southern Baptist, I don't subscribe to the notion that only Baptists can be saved. I admit I don't understand all the tenets of the Catholic faith, but I don't need to because it doesn't concern me.

And I would guess, that just as there are many different trains of thought even among baptist churches, that there can be some among Catholics as well. I think that's where some people get confused and why they make general statements like "all Catholics worship Mary" when it's simply not true!

[RandomGuy]

I think it's been established over and over that god is a mischievous . I blame it on the parents.

Chronos and Rhea?


(listens to the sound of Google searches)

Music, sweet music...

[Phenomanul]

Why do people thank others when they accomplish things on their own? Like when an athlete wins an award and thanks his teammates; he could not do it his own.

The difference is Mary doesn't presently intercede for others... IMO

She fulfilled her role... is blessed for it... and we are to honor the fact that GOD chose her above all others to bear the Messiah. We are to be grateful for the fact that she accepted her task devotedly.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1st Timothy 2:5

But that discussion is for another day.

[JoeChalupa]

Where there's smoke, often there's fire. I was a devout Catcholic the first 18 years of my life, went to church 2-3 times a week, and practically all we ever did was pray to Mary. If she's not god, then why pray to her?

I hear ya and I've heard that same story from other ex-Catholics who leave the flock and I don't begrudge them for it. There is difference between worshipping other Gods and praying for guidance and help to a Saint or La Virgen de Guadalupe. I've never had an issue with it and never will.