Except for the fact that the Jesus from Christianity IS the historical human named Jesus.
I hear you.
Jesus won't be gloating, but like a good Christian, I will.
There are days when I picture myself in Heaven, sitting on a cloud eating popcorn watching the Tribulation take place.
It will be like watching the Left Behind movies but in real time.
It is so awesome to know you are on the winning team.
I really want everyone to be on it though.
It is analogous to a future civilization 2000 years from now, studying our culture. They study Santa Claus and St. Nicholas.
One is a myth who goes around giving millions of presents on a reindeer powered sled and the other was a real man.
According to you, they should come to the conclusion that St. Nicholas was Santa Claus and he lived in the North Pole and really did fly around on a reindeer powered sled.
We know that to be false. As I said, there is a major distinction between the two.
Just because there may or may not have been a historical man named Jesus does not mean we are to believe that he was some sort of real God.
By the way, the evidence for anyone named Jesus is down to -1- account by Josephus which was proven to be a forgery.
Jesus won't be gloating, but like a good Christian, I will.
That would be something if on the last day of the season, the Spurs need the Mavs to beat the Lakers, but they can't because you don't want them to win any more games......
See- a classic example of why it is bad to be vengeful and pays to show grace.
I don't know when it will happen ( God alone knows that). I just know that Jesus will return and it will be an awesome day for all of us Christians.
It's actually not analogous to that at all.
We're not saying anything more about Jesus than what was do ented in the gospels. Choosing to believe that he was the son of God is a leap of faith that many choose to make...but because you find no reason to believe doesn't somehow eliminate his existence. Disprove the historical accuracy of the gospels (which you cannot do), then you have a discussion. But time and time again, qualified, professional HISTORIANS (not skeptics with an axe to grind) have validated the historical accuracy of the NT authors (specifically the gospels and epistles). I'll take their word for it over yours.
Find me a consensus of historians...HISTORIANS....who have come to the conclusion that he never existed.
And when was Josephus "proven" to be a forgery?
Validated the historical accuracy of the NT authors??
What exactly did anyone validate and where is your proof of this?
Someone validated the accuracy that Jesus walked on water?
1) Do you not understand that there is only -1- account outside of the New Testament that makes ANY mention of a Jesus? How could ANY HISTORIAN come to a conclusion that he existed with any legitimacy?
The surprising LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE of a man named Jesus would conclude that we can NEVER say he existed with certainty.
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
"Jesus is mentioned in two passages of the work The Antiquities of the Jews by the Jewish historian Josephus, written in the late first century AD. One passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, discusses the career of Jesus. The authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it was a forgery."
We have another copy of Josephus' work and in that one, the stuff about Jesus is not there. It's a forgery.
The mention of Jesus also says "He was the Christ" which is ridiculous because Josephus wasn't even a christian.
It's been proven to be a forgery for a long time now.
Follow this train of thought with me if you will.....
let's suppose the rapture happens in our lifetime (which many beaters believe).......
several million people suddenly disappear (mostly in America and Europe I guess.....) cars crash, planes fall out of the sky etc......
a dude rises up and says "hey, how about we all put a mark on our hand/forehead?"
Will everyone will suddenly have gotten stupid and just plain forget about the book of Revelation or all the Hollywood movies about it? There is absolutely no way in this millenium that if a bunch of people suddenly disappeared that anyone would ever allow a forhead/hand mark because everyone is still very aware of the prophecy.....
and the dude that would try to suggest it, would be one dead dude......real quick.
just sayin...
and by the way.......popcorn? You are in heaven on a cloud and the best snack you can come up with is popcorn? I'm glad to know that microwaves go to Heaven with us when we die.
Christians have been claiming the end of the world since WW2. They thought for sure Hitler was the anti-christ and the world was at an end very soon.
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
"Jesus is mentioned in two passages of the work The Antiquities of the Jews by the Jewish historian Josephus, written in the late first century AD. One passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, discusses the career of Jesus. The authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it was a forgery."
We have another copy of Josephus' work and in that one, the stuff about Jesus is not there. It's a forgery.
Question? The entries on wikipedia can be edited by anyone reading them - correct? If so, why in the world would anyone use them for a source?
Again, I'll quote a HISTORIAN, Sir William Ramsey. He was a skeptic who traveled the Middle East in an effort to verify the accuracy of Luke's work. Upon conclusion of his hands-on research, he states "Luke is a historian of first rank...In short, this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." Luke names 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands without error. Modern mariners have validated the accuracy of the details surrounding Paul's journeys. Luke accurately used the les of government officials, proconsuls, and tetrachs. Archeological discoveries have proven the accuracy of John, include the Pool of Bethesda (accurately described in detail by John) and the Pool of Siloam (also accurately described in detail by John). Burial sites have been discovered with bodies verifying the method of Roman crucifixion.
The gospel author's record of historical accuracy en les their work to be taken as accurate.
I get nauseated whenever someone says "well you need to prove [X] doesn't exist."
No, nobody needs to prove something doesn't exist. It's ridiculous.
If a theory comes forward, then it is on the theorist to prove that the theory is fact.........it is not on the skeptic to disprove the theory. The skeptic may debunk a theory using whatever historical, scientific, or other means, but again, no.......it is not on anyone to prove that God doesn't exist or that Jesus never existed.
I haven't read all 37 pages of this thread, just clicked "last page" out of sheer boredom, so if this has been done, forgive me, but I just...couldn't...resist...
"In case of rapture, can I have your car?"
One of my favorite bumperstickers of all time.
Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled religious argument, already in progress...
I wouldn't give you the link if it was not accurate. You can fact check if you like.
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/josephus...deafening.html
Pick one
I mean really, I gave you the information.
It's accurate, find the source you like the most.
lol
now that's funny right thar, I dont care who you are
You use that word "proven" so loosely, it's almost laughable...all the while citing sources that use the words "disputed" and "view", but never state it's been proven.
Also concerning Josephus from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_jesus
"Judging from Alice Whealey's 2003 survey of the historiography, it seems that the majority of modern scholars consider that Josephus really did write something here about Jesus"
Certainly the one who claims they have proven such, should prove what they claimed they have proven, no?
January 20th, I think.Tell me when you expect this to happen.I cannot wait to see the world's reaction when Jesus' returns.
It's going to be the ultimate " You were saying?" moment.
Only, I know Jesus won't be gloating over forever proving wrong those who doubted Him, but instead He will mourn the loss of them.
I have discussed with my fiancee several times how great of thing it is that I am not God.
Because if I were God, I would be like "Bruce Almighty" gone bad some days.
For example, the Dallas Mavericks as the team is now would never win another game.
The Heat either.
A man coming down from the sky to kill billions of people who refused to follow him blindly. I can't seem to tell the difference between your god and your devil.
The rest of the quote goes like this :
"....really did write something here about Jesus, but that the text that has reached us is corrupt to a perhaps quite substantial extent. In the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Flavius Josephus, "The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations." There has been no consensus on which portions are corrupt, or to what degree."
Corrupted, interpolated, forgery.
http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu...hus-jesus.html
So, -1- account by Josephus in which we have proof it was a forgery. Josephus may have actually wrote something of Jesus, but it was tampered with and corrupted.
Secondly, the place where the mention of Jesus actually shows up, is in the early 90's CE "Antiquities" but NOT in the earlier "The Jewish War".
This is to be taken as he had no idea who Jesus was until he heard about him from religious people many years later.
I quoted the part which was relevant, which suggests that Josephus did, in fact, write about Jesus. Now, if you want to discuss the interpolation, forgery, or corruption of what was written, knock yourself out. That wasn't my point...my point, as quoted, was that the general consensus is that Josephus did, in fact, write SOMETHING about Jesus.
It just doesn't make sense.
The creator. The en y that is the epitome of all that is good or perfect. Right...God represents all that is good and perfect? This en y instead of loving everything it creates only loves the ones who follow his word thats been handed down amist half truths and destruction.
This is like a man telling his kids that he won't love all of them but only the ones who see things his way and follow him word for word.
See I can be a good person. I can live by the moral standard but choose to not worship at all. This doesn't mean I'm a bad person but means I utilized the abilities he gave me to do as I see morally fit. So even though I live by the exact code or moral I don't cut it.
So this man would kill his own children even if they were morally good. All because they didn't worship the ground he walked on.
Kneel before me or be stricken with death.
Thats not love. Thats not good. Its disgusting. Shameful...so horrible that even flawed man holds himself to a higher standard.
It amazes me how people can preach what good God is without realizing that if the man rises again he will be the single most destructive thing we have ever seen. I wouldn't be suprised if his own people turned against him for killing their loved ones while flexing his power.
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