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  1. #301
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Given:

    Risk has two dimensions.

    Scale of loss and probability of occurance.

    WC and the deniers, when they are being honest, will agree that if we really do get into the worst case GW scenario as the AGW alarmists claim, it will be catastrophic.
    Problem with this is that I see their worse case scenario as having a ZERO percent chance of being correct! It is not supported by science.

    They spend their time attacking the probability of occurance, which they put at virtually nil.

    OK, fine.
    It is nil. Not virtually nil. Their worse case is simply impossible. Just scare tactics.

    They say then, that we should do/change absolutely nothing based on this, because "we will ruin our economy doing it", which is their worst-case scenario.

    OK, fine.

    Now provide data that supports that assessment of probability.

    It is claimed to be a near certainty that we will ruin our economy and standard of living by moderating our greenhouse gas emission profile.

    Your claim.

    Your burden of proof.
    It's to preposterous to give numbers with any accuracy. How much xcan we go into debt before the US currency is worthless in the world? We are already getting close, especially with this current bailout!

    There are now enough facts available to show the alarmists are gravely in error. They went by obsolete models with assumptions built in that continue to be revealed as false assumptions. The models will continue to show the results they were built for. They refuse to incorporate the real facts we've seen these last few years about solar irradiation and soot. Why? Because they destroy their arguments.

    Look at what their dogma says we need to do. Since CO2 is so persistent, we need to cut emissions far faster than we can replace zero emission energy with. To avoid their doomsday scenario, what else can we do?

    Random, I have shown you facts behind solar and soot that the alarmists clearly ignore. When you subtract the solar and soot effects from measured warming, there is almost no warming left to be caused by CO2.

  2. #302
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Why is the majority melt under the Jet Stream that comes from Asia?

    Could it be the soot it carries...
    Indeed, it could be. It seems to be a reasonable conclusion.
    Now consider, how much the oceans are warming from the lack of ice cover. They now absorb about 90% of the solar radiation that makes it through the atmosphere rather than reflecting about 90%. That a pretty large power change in a sizable area of the earth. Even when it's melting, the soot is trapping that heat rather than letting the ice reflect it.

    This whole concept is an inconvenient truth to the powers to be and the new business of selling Carbon Credits.

    NASA has solid research, entirely ignored by the IPCC and others on "Black Ice." They give very small numbers of 'radiative forcing' of soot, but never updated it to real numbers.

    Here is a re posting of post #1 of the thread led Black Carbon Global Warming:

    Black Carbon rather than CO2 I will claim to be the major anthropogenic warming on the Earth.

    Black Carbon is simply soot. It is expelled into the atmosphere by the incomplete burning of fuels. In small quan ies, we see it in the USA from older cars tailpipes, and from diesel trucks when they accelerate hard. It’s the black smoke we see. Since the 70’s, here in the USA we have regulated pollution to the point that we generate very little of it in the global picture. The real culprit is Asia. They have been building and using coal power plants, without implementing the pollution controls we do. We are seeing the jet streams carry this soot to both the Arctic region, and causing occasional smog in the Pacific Northwest, which otherwise would have no smog. A few articles and some info contained within:

    Wiki: Black Carbon:

    Black carbon contribution to global warming
    Black carbon is a potent climate forcing agent, estimated to be the second largest contributor to global warming after carbon dioxide (CO2). Because black carbon remains in the atmosphere only for a few weeks, reducing black carbon emissions may be the fastest means of slowing climate change in the near-term.

    Estimates of black carbon’s climate forcing (combining both direct and indirect forcings) vary from the IPCC’s conservative estimate of + 0.3 watts per square meter (W/m2) + 0.25, to the most recent estimate of 1.0-1.2 W/m2 (see Table 1), which is “as much as 55% of the CO2 forcing and is larger than the forcing due to the other greenhouse gasses (GHGs) such as CH4, CFCs, N2O, or tropospheric ozone.”

    In some regions, such as the Himalayas, the impact of black carbon on melting snowpack and glaciers may be equal to that of CO2. Black carbon emissions also significantly contribute to Arctic ice-melt, which is critical because “nothing in climate is more aptly described as a ‘tipping point’ than the 0°C boundary that separates frozen from liquid water—the bright, reflective snow and ice from the dark, heat-absorbing ocean.” Hence, reducing such emissions may be “the most efficient way to mitigate Arctic warming that we know of.”
    OK, for those of you who error on the side of caution. The first paragraph says “reducing black carbon emissions may be the fastest means of slowing climate change in the near-term.” The second paragraph has the IPCC increasing it’s estimated impact from 0.3 to 0.55 watts of warming to 1 to 1.2 watts. Shouldn’t this most easily controlled measure be attempted first before regulation CO2 emission levels?

    If warming from soot increases, then what did they say before is decreasing… I’ll bet they don’t, but I’d say they are seeing CO2 isn’t the culprit they claim it is. Considering on the below graph, they gave CO2 something like a 1.5 to a 1.8 watt range, that would now be reduced to maybe 0.8 to 1.5 watts! However, the below graph must be older yet. It shows soot at 0 to 0.2 watts. Correcting to the higher soot figure drops CO2 to even more. Because of the way the range these, I won’t attempt to quantify a valid change. Just that it’s even farther. Along with the truth that solar irradiance changes should be higher than the approximate 0.1 to 0.3 watts the give, you can see that CO2 can easily be getting smaller. Solar irradiance by official NASA and other agencies than monitor the sun clearly increase by at least 0.3 watts.



    Second article, by MSNBC; Soot may speed up melting of Arctic ice:

    Using computer models and information from NASA satellites, scientists located significant ac ulations of black carbon soot in the Arctic region. This soot may contribute to the warming of a region that has already seen rapidly increasing temperatures in recent years.

    "This research offers additional evidence black carbon, generated through the process of incomplete combustion, may have a significant warming impact on the Arctic," said Dorothy Koch of Columbia University and NASA’s Goddard Ins ute for Space Studies.
    Funny thing is that CO2 doesn’t produce the right calculation to be the primary reason for warming that has been observed. Climate models have been made since the 80’s on the assumption greenhouse gasses were the primary cause of warming. What almost any article I see on the subject fails to do is acknowledge that if we are seeing other factors contributing to warming, then CO2 must not be warming the earth as much as first assumed. They refuse to see past the Flat Earth mentality.

    Is soot, not CO2, to blame for the loss of Arctic ice?:

    The Arctic is especially vulnerable to pollution. In recent years the Arctic has significantly warmed, and sea-ice cover and glaciers have diminished. Likely causes for these trends include changing weather patterns and the effects of pollution. Airborne soot also warms the air and affects weather patterns and clouds.
    Black carbon has already been implicated as playing a role in melting ice and snow. Basically, when soot falls on ice, it darkens the surface and accelerates melting by absorbing more sunlight than ice would, just as wearing a black shirt in the summertime makes you feel hotter than if you wore a lighter color. Dark colors absorb heat and light, and lighter colors reflect it keeping surfaces cooler.
    From ABC News; Can We Save the Polar Bears?:

    Scientists are discovering that what appears to be pristine, white snow may be more polluted than it seems. They're finding tiny particles of black carbon — too small for the naked eye to see — from forest fires and human pollution.

    Under a microscope, scientists can see black carbon particles by the trillions. Those black carbon particles cause the snow to melt faster.

    "Black carbon absorbs sunlight and it causes warming," said Stephen Warren, an atmospheric scientist at the University of Washington.

    Scientists have traced soot blown into the Arctic region to industrial sources in North America, Europe and now Asia, but there's still hope.

    "I think we can still save the Arctic," said NASA's James Hansen. "Our calculations are that we could keep the sea ice in the Arctic from melting much more than it has already."

    That can only happen if emissions cuts include greatly decreasing black carbon from smokestacks and tailpipes, according to Hansen and other scientists. That's an effort everyone has to strive for, from China to the United States.
    A few more links:

    Soot Could Hasten Melting of Arctic Ice

    IGSD/INECE Climate Briefing Note: 9 June 2008, A must read. Nice data. Has the most recent BC estimates of forcing at 1.0 to 1.2 watts.

    Study: Black Carbon Pollution Major Factor in Global Warming, 23 March 2008

    Global Warming Hoax:



    Notice how out closest source of Black Carbon emissions at high levels is Mexico City? I know that from a better map of this I've seen. Somewhere, I have a few NASA links that cover the BC levels better. I think I covered enough here. Threads getting a bit big already.

  3. #303
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Renewables can supply 100% of the world's energy supply. Before you go ape about that statement, I will add the caveat: given enough time and investment. I would put that time frame to be well over a century if you want to go completely renewable. We only really get about 2% or 3% of our electricity now from renewables, and increasing that is not too hard within 10 years to 10 or even 20%. By investing in this we buy ourselves time and push the Doomsday scenario back.
    Renewable and clean energy are two different things, then it depends on what you mean by 'clean' also. Renewable energies like ethanol don't really help the carbon footprint at all. If we are to talk about reducing or eliminating man-made greenhouse gasses, then be careful with the word renewable.

    We actually get something like 18% of our world wide energy by 2006 numbers from renewables. 13% from biomass and 3% from hydroelectric. I'm skeptical of this particular wiki link. Maybe I need to read it more, but it doesn't completely make sense to me. Here's a but from it:

    Renewable energy is energy generated from natural resources—such as sunlight, wind, rain, tides and geothermal heat—which are renewable (naturally replenished). In 2006, about 18% of global final energy consumption came from renewables, with 13% coming from traditional biomass, such as wood-burning. Hydroelectricity was the next largest renewable source, providing 3% (15% of global electricity generaiton), followed by solar hot water/heating, which contributed 1.3%. Modern technologies, such as geothermal energy, wind power, solar power, and ocean energy together provided some 0.8% of final energy consumption.

    ---

    Distributed power grids actually mean less economic losses from outages from any kind, and also offer less transmission loss. I don't have and likely can't provide definitive statements on the exact impact of CO2 levels. It would provide efficiency gains that would alleviate the need for new power plants, part of which would be coal, and would reasonably be concluded to reduce CO2 emissions. It would take about 10-20+ years to really implement on a large scale, to what I have read. By investing in this we buy ourselves time and push the Doomsday scenario back.
    Reading this is why I edited the prior post I made. Proble is, stated like California don't want any more energy generation in their back yard. That's why we have a 3.1 Giga-Watt DC interconnect from the hydropower in the Pacific North-Left to them.

    Unknown. Were I to guess, 10-15 years. Large fuel cells are more efficient than small ones and MUCH more technically/economically feasible. We aren't starting from scratch, and there are a lot of promising technologies out there. By investing in this we buy ourselves time and push the Doomsday scenario back.
    We are still speaking of very large hydrogen storage, safety, etc.

    I have no problems going this route, if we can overcome the obstacles. There are also problems around the membrane life and destroying it is the hydrogen is contaminated. Now we need super cleaning also.

    Did you know that in 1996, clean room space costs about $10,000 per square foot... Just a little factoid I know from being in the industry... Point is, it gets very expensive to keep things clean enough.

    I don't think it is really possible to completely totally stop buring fossil fuels and eliminate CO2 emissions in 41 years, or even entirely desirable.
    The way technology changes, there is really no way to know how feasible it is. Personally, I think we should try to maintain a 400 ppm to 500 ppm of atmospheric CO2 is we can. Maybe more. Agriculture loves it!

    It is VERY possible to push any Doomsday scenario back long enough for us to really find something revolutionary, or simply give ourselves the room to change at a much more gradual and sustainable pace.
    Doomsday scenarios based on CO2 emissions belong in science fiction.

    We can't do it all instantly, but we didn't get our present economy instantly either. We can start the process, and buy ourselves time to really see if WC is right or not.
    I have no time to take a boat or plane around the Earth to see it's round either. I trust the cir stantial evidence I see, just like I trust the Global Warming scare is ridiculous. Understanding the sciences as well as I do. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the alarmists are flat out wrong!

    By the way, we can and should invest in nuclear power as well at some level, simply because, even with its limitations, it is still better than coal. By investing in this we buy ourselves time and push the Doomsday scenario back.
    Nuclear, Geothermal, New Hydropower designs friendly to fish (also tear down and replace existing hydro), Biomass from waste, and limited solar. I'm for these completely. I'm not so keen on wind and over doing solar energy for several reasons. I'd like to see solar power limited to roof tops and parts of the desert, elevated to provide shade for wildlife. I think wind power looks tacky, and I love natural scenery. I say we keep enough clean burning coal plants and natural gas plants to keep plant friendly levels of CO2 in the atmosphere.

    Cars...

    The future of cars will change as oil maintains higher prices. I am a firm believer in the lightly regulated marketplace. Designers are going to electrical powered cars. If we can start supplying enough electricity in the grid, and design better batteries, I'm sure we will see electric car technology develop to be the rule rather than exception. Even if we need to burn fuel oil, large scale power can be more easily adapted to burn nearly pollution free rather than from millions of individual combustion engines. Although we may have high losses in conversion and distribution, it is less than the inefficiency of the internal combustion engine.

    I'm not at all for doing nothing about advancing technology. I just don't want it to be rushed and end up with other technological disasters. We cannot rush into something out of fear. Let the market forces work like they are meant to. It will come about in time.

    Oh... I doubt hydrogen fuel cells will ever become a viable reality. Still too many technical problems. [URK=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_methanol_fuel_cell]Methanol fuel cells[/URL] are more promising I think! If Wiki is correct, they are already in commercial and research designs of up to 1 maga-watt. I thought there was also a methane fuel cell. I'm either wrong, or didn't find anything on it. I think a LNG fuel cell would work nice for transportation if they were available. Hydrogen fuel cells are the most efficient non-polluting cells that can be made to relatively large power requirements, but hydrogen is so hard to work with. Methane and methanol storage is so much easier.

    Methane fuel cells are what I want to see. I think this was a legitimate one, but it never made it to market. Safety? Reliability? Regulations? Who knows:

    Plug Power engineers designed the HomeGen 7000 so it can be installed within a day. The energy system, measuring 75 inches long, 35 inches wide, and 55 inches deep—about the size of a refrigerator—is placed on a precast concrete pad. Installers will attach its fuel and water connections to the residence's gas and water lines, and its output cable to the service panel.

    The PEM fuel cells within the GE HomeGen 7000 will provide homes with as much as 7 kW of electricity and hot water as a byproduct to improve its fuel efficiency.

    Once installed, the fuel cell system runs continuously and will provide up to 7 kW free of grid power interruptions. Plug Power has indicated that the first HomeGen 7000s should become commercially available early next year, and are intended for installations where grid power is available. A year later, Plug Power will introduce a grid-independent, LPG-fueled system for use in stand-alone applications.


  4. #304
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    Intellectual honesty and good critical thinking requires one to provide proof for one's assertions when asked fairly.

    You have not done so, when asked for some simple proposals as to how the limitations of nuclear will be overcome to make it the "only realistic option" for massively reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Note that you have once again ommited "in the amount of time GW theory says we have left".
    I have done so. You are trying to change the subject when I was not trying to debate nuclear energy. I was making the point that your solutions simply cannot provide enough energy and/or be implemented fast enough to make a difference if GW theory is correct. You have basically conceded that point in your responses. Your rather weak statement of "by investing in this we push back the doomsday scenario" is simply untrue. You cannot provide any substantial proof of that statement. In fact Global Warming scientists even disagree with you. I generously gave you 41 years to show how your proposals could change the path that Global Warming theory predicts and you are not able to do so. The reality is that many GW scientists say we have less than 20 years. Others say we ran out of time 10-15 years ago.

    As for nuclear energy, I don't claim to be an expert on nuclear energy so I can't reassure you of all the fears you may have of it. You might look into the high pressure pebble reactors that China is moving forward with as they go nuclear. Pebble reactors are gas cooled, said to be 100% safe under all cir stances. China's High pressure design also produces hydrogen for use as fuel and is very quick to build. First one to be built this year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor
    China has licensed the German technology and is actively developing a pebble bed reactor for power generation [8]. The 10 megawatt prototype is called the HTR-10. It is a conventional helium-cooled, helium-turbine design. The program is at Tsinghua University in Beijing. The first 200 megawatt production plant is planned for 2007. There are firm plans for thirty such plants by 2020 (6 gigawatts). By 2050, China plans to deploy as much as 300 gigawatts of reactors of which PBMRs will be a major component. If PBMRs are successful, there may be a substantial number of reactors deployed. This may be the largest planned nuclear power deployment in history.

    Tsinghua's program for Nuclear and New Energy technology also plans in 2006 to begin developing a system to use the high temperature gas of a pebble bed reactor to crack steam to produce hydrogen. The hydrogen could serve as fuel for hydrogen vehicles, reducing China's dependence on imported oil. Hydrogen can also be stored, and distribution by pipelines may be more efficient than conventional power lines. See hydrogen economy.
    Of course China does not have the "Left" to deal with politically so they get to just move forward. Meanwhile we can't use our own resources, can't go nuclear, can't have a sensible energy policy.
    Last edited by SnakeBoy; 01-03-2009 at 01:27 AM.

  5. #305
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    How about this article Random:

    Pål Brekke: Internationally renowned climate sceptic and solar expert. Excerpts:

    The UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPPC) has determined that the earth's temperature has risen by about 0.7° C since 1901. According to Dr Brekke, this time period coincides not only with an increase in human-caused greenhouse gas emissions, but also with a higher level of solar activity, which makes it complicated to separate the effects of these two phenomena. For this standpoint, he has been accused of being in the pocket of the powerful Norwegian petroleum industry and of being the mouthpiece for the country's least environmentally focused political forces.

    Some climate researchers have told Dr Brekke that he is unqualified to put forth his opinion since he is not a climate researcher. Dr Brekke asks, "Just what makes someone a climate researcher? Couldn't someone who studies solar radiation also be considered a climate researcher?" Dr Brekke has published more than 40 scientific articles on the sun and on the interaction between the sun and the earth.
    "There is much evidence that the sun's high-activity cycle is levelling off or abating. If it is true that the sun's activity is of great significance in determining the earth's climate, this reduced solar activity could work in the opposite direction to climate change caused by humans. In that case," contends Dr Brekke, "we could find the temperature levelling off or actually falling in the course of a 50-year period" - an assertion that provokes many climate researchers.
    Or this one:

    Fired at D.O.E.:

    Last spring physicist William Happer found out what happens to federal scientists who ask the wrong questions. He was fired.

    Happer, director of energy research at the U.S. Department of Energy for two years, was asked to leave at the end of May. Although he was a political appointee, he had expected to remain until his replacement was nominated, since the Clinton administration had asked him to stay on in January. But he was pushed out two months beforehand. "I was told that science was not going to intrude on policy," he says. Now the DOE's former chief scientist is back at Princeton.
    "Science was not going to intrude on policy"... I have mentioned this before. If you don't play politics with science, you lose your job. This has happened to several scientists who refuse to lie about science.

  6. #306
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I have also drawn that conclusion by the way you say we should error on the side of caution. Small amounts of money will not mitigate CO2 emissions by any degree to matter. It will take trillions, and maybe more.
    Trillions? Really?

    Do have some source material for this, so that I can read up on the costs and see for myself?

  7. #307
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    For the most part, these are great goals. However, you can only so so much with the power grid structure without superconductor technology. Making grids more reliable is economically done by making more power plants rather than trying to redistribute power. Solar and wind cannot effectively be used until we have energy storage systems. Wind really doesn't do much now because other power generation needs to be on Hot Standby in case of the sudden loss of wind. Solar is still pretty small, and shades large portions of the earth.

    I'm unsure what you mean by "a more distributed and robust electrical grid." If you mean what a Distributed Power Grid would technically mean, then I agree with you.

    I thought about that after answering and realized I may have jumped to conclusions. It's long distances from energy source to user that causes us grid problems which are plagued by power losses, es, and reflect power.
    With a more distributed electrical grid, you don't need superconductors.

    You are entirely right that going completely solar won't really help to much because of the hot standby problem.

    There are ways around that, and some promising research into the problem using solar concentrators that store heat in the form of melted salts that are used to generate steam power at night and smooth out the production curve. Storing heat is, from what I have read, far more efficient in terms of energy than storing electricity directly.

    Large industrial size fuel-cells are another part of the storage problem that holds some promise and offer a feasible way to store power on a meaninful scale.

    If every large building was generating power for storage on the weekends and off-peak time, and that power was stored in the building itself, you have essentially cut the transmission loss factor out of the equation, because you are generating power where it is actually used, meaning you don't need a 1 for 1 replacement of generating capacity.

    There are some extremely good solutions in the offing that offer ways to both cut emissions, make us more energy independent, and promote the economy with non-outsourceable jobs.

  8. #308
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Does the upcoming Obama stimulus include energy R&D in addition to transportation? If so, what?

  9. #309
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I have also drawn that conclusion by the way you say we should error on the side of caution. Small amounts of money will not mitigate CO2 emissions by any degree to matter. It will take trillions, and maybe more.
    Trillions? Really?

    Do have some source material for this, so that I can read up on the costs and see for myself?
    I noticed this simple question didn't get answered, even though you logged on and posted for a couple of hours.

    Just in case you missed it.

  10. #310
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Does the upcoming Obama stimulus include energy R&D in addition to transportation? If so, what?
    This answer is likely easily found in a google search.

  11. #311
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    This answer is likely easily found in a google search.
    Forgive my laziness in deferring to someone obviously more learned than me, RG.

    I found this:

    http://earth2tech.com/2008/12/11/rep...reen-stimulus/
    • Green school construction and renovation, $7.3 billion
    • Greening affordable housing, $5.0 billion
    • Green job creation, $100.0 billion
    That green job creation portion will include (but is only a portion of the spending):
    • The Weatherization Assistance Program, $0.9 billion
    • The Federal Energy Management Program, $1.3 billion
    • Refundable residential energy efficiency tax credits, $5.0 billion
    • Solar roofs on federal buildings, $3.5 billion
    • Smart grid federal matching funds, $1.3 billion
    • Building retrofits, $10.0 billion
    • Energy efficiency and conservation block grants, $5.0 billion
    • “Cash for Clunkers” rebates for older cars, $2.5 billion
    • Electric transmission grid, $10.0 billion
    • Advanced technology vehicle manufacturing and retooling, $7.5 billion
    • Replacing aging buses and acquiring rail cars, $4.0 billion
    • Local transit infrastructure, $8.0 billion
    Points out that Obama's $150 billion a year for ten years on energy R&D presumes a thriving market for carbon credits:

    http://www.wired.com/culture/culture...17-01/st_essay

    From Mr. Obama's website:

    http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy

    http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/facts...peech_080308.p

  12. #312
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    It's to preposterous to give numbers with any accuracy.
    Small amounts of money will not mitigate CO2 emissions by any degree to matter. It will take trillions, and maybe more.
    RG-- Source?

    WC-- (silence)


  13. #313
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I noticed this simple question didn't get answered, even though you logged on and posted for a couple of hours.

    Just in case you missed it.
    I'm not going to look up other peoples work on the matter. I'm sure you've heard the numbers yourself. Replacing cars as we know them would cost how much alone? Carbon sequestration for power generation... How much?

    You're the accountant. Run the numbers yourself. It's in excess of three Trillion, just those two items.

    I thought it was a no-brainier that didn't need explained.

  14. #314
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Large industrial size fuel-cells are another part of the storage problem that holds some promise and offer a feasible way to store power on a meaninful scale.
    Have you looked at the efficiencies of large capacity fuel cells? The clean systems do not exceed 50%, and the way they work, that's at low level loads. Not rated loads.

  15. #315
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    RG-- Source?

    WC-- (silence)

    Bull .

    I have given several sources that show CO2 is not a a problem to points that mitigation makes any relevant difference.

    It's not my fault you don't understand the material. You still believe CO2 is the problem. As long as you believe that, my sources will never be the right answers for you.

  16. #316
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I'm not going to look up other peoples work on the matter. I'm sure you've heard the numbers yourself. Replacing cars as we know them would cost how much alone? Carbon sequestration for power generation... How much?

    You're the accountant. Run the numbers yourself. It's in excess of three Trillion, just those two items.

    I thought it was a no-brainier that didn't need explained.
    In accounting for different investment options, one only considers the differences between options. One nets all the differences and comes up with a "cost" or a "benefit" from any given option.

    Gasoline-powered cars wear out and are replaced as they wear out periodically, usually about 5 o 10 years to my knowledge.

    Any switchover to new types of vehicles that replaces the older fleet at a rate equal to or less than the wearout rate is not a net cost and should not be considered in any consideration of options. If the newer vehciles were, on average, more or less expensive than the ones they were replacing, that would be a cost one should consider.

    If, say, you replaced a fleet of SUV's that cost $40,000 each with a fleet of smaller economy cars that cost $20,000 each*, then there is actually a net benefit $20,000 for each car. Take a fleet of 1 million SUV's, 1/7th, or 14%, of which wear out each year, is 140,000 times $20,000, and you get a net of $2.8Bn saved each year, and this doesn't include other avoided costs like the difference in gasoline consumption** between the two fleets.

    Carbon sequestration is a better concept to figure into this, as it is a cost that must be added to carbon-based fuel sources.

    Factoring in this actually makes green renewables more economically compe ive, as this an expensive option that is not needed for solar, wind, or geothermal.

    Personally, from an economic point of view, I think we should require coal power plants to 100% scrub all of the really nasty things like heavy metals and sulphur from their emissions, as both of those have health and environmental costs that are forced on other people. Allowing coal power plants to pollute is essentially stealing from other people, and doesn't represent the true costs associated with that form of power.

    *Note this doesn't assume any new technology, both fleets are gasoline powered internal combustion engines.

    **Estimated yearly fuel consumption difference, if the entire fleet was replaced, assuming 18mpg for the old fleet and 35mpg for the new fleet and 10,000 miles driven per year, would be 270M gallons of gasoline, or roughly $430M per year at current prices, or $1.07Bn at $4/gallon. Replacing the entire SUV fleet with electrical cars would save 555M gallons of gasoline, minus electricity costs of driving 10,000 miles.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 01-07-2009 at 10:05 AM.

  17. #317
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Bull .

    I have given several sources that show CO2 is not a a problem to points that mitigation makes any relevant difference.

    It's not my fault you don't understand the material. You still believe CO2 is the problem. As long as you believe that, my sources will never be the right answers for you.
    No, I asked for a source for your "it will cost trillions and trillions" to reduce carbon emissions to any appreciable degree.

    It's not my fault you don't understand the underlying economics.

  18. #318
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Regardless of your credentials, this is what happens to you when you're a "denier". Listen to Barbara Boxer's comment at the end of Dr. Spencer's testimony.




    Listen to this same rail against hurricane expert, Dr. Gray.




    Barbara Boxer is sponsor of numerous climate change acts.

  19. #319
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Regardless of your credentials, this is what happens to you when you're a "denier". Listen to Barbara Boxer's comment at the end of Dr. Spencer's testimony.
    Listen to this same rail against hurricane expert, Dr. Gray.
    Barbara Boxer is sponsor of numerous climate change acts.
    If I were a scientist studying this and really doubted AGM theory, and had some valid science, I would spend more time getting my science published in valid, peer reviewed journals, and less time in front of congressional panels. It isn't the congresspeople you have to convince, it is their staff who has time to read complex issue papers who brief congress anyways.

    If WC, or any "denier" is as good as he says at "disproving" AGM theory, then he should quit ing about it in internet forums, and start publishing his science. That is how real scientists deal with novel ideas. They don't cry about "they just don't like my politics" because real science either has data or not. Boo- ing-hoo, your idea isn't widely accepted, get out there and do the science to support it.

  20. #320
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    If I were a scientist studying this and really doubted AGM theory, and had some valid science, I would spend more time getting my science published in valid, peer reviewed journals, and less time in front of congressional panels. It isn't the congresspeople you have to convince, it is their staff who has time to read complex issue papers who brief congress anyways.
    Dr. Spencer has published peer-reviewed papers. Dr. Gray got involved in GW because people started attributing GW to hurricane frenquency and intensity and Dr. Gray is an expert on hurricanes.


    If WC, or any "denier" is as good as he says at "disproving" AGM theory, then he should quit ing about it in internet forums, and start publishing his science. That is how real scientists deal with novel ideas. They don't cry about "they just don't like my politics" because real science either has data or not. Boo- ing-hoo, your idea isn't widely accepted, get out there and do the science to support it.

    LOL.

    Can you explain to me how one goes about disproving something that's not proven in the first place? Seems like all that any good "denier" would have to do to disprove AGW is ..... nothing.

  21. #321
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Can you explain to me how one goes about disproving something that's not proven in the first place?
    Tautology. Circular reasoning. You just assume something to be true or untrue in the first place and hope nobody calls bs.
    Last edited by Winehole23; 01-07-2009 at 05:45 PM.

  22. #322
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Tautology. Circular reasoning You just assume something to be true or untrue in the first place and hope nobody calls bs.

    In 50 years, Florida and California will be underwater.

    You can't prove me wrong. Well, at least not for 50 years. Now give me some research grant money, damn it!

  23. #323
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    No, I asked for a source for your "it will cost trillions and trillions" to reduce carbon emissions to any appreciable degree.

    It's not my fault you don't understand the underlying economics.
    This is trivial. I'm not going to bother arguing the added up costs. I address the real issues. That CO2 does not contribute any significant warming. It is solar, which we cannot do anything about, and soot, which we can, yet nobody addresses soot.

    Worrying about CO2 is ridiculous, at any cost, until we address the one we can that's far cheaper. Soot!

    I am very conservative on my estimates. I use 55K for a solar free earth and 0.2 % increase in solar radiation. Other sources I have found say the earth would be far closer to absolute zero than I use and even the IPCC has solar radiation increases at 0.24 to 0.3%

    Why don't we argue the important stuff?

  24. #324
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Can you explain to me how one goes about disproving something that's not proven in the first place? Seems like all that any good "denier" would have to do to disprove AGW is ..... nothing.
    Thank-You. That's what exactly what I have been doing.

  25. #325
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Dr. Spencer has published peer-reviewed papers. Dr. Gray got involved in GW because people started attributing GW to hurricane frenquency and intensity and Dr. Gray is an expert on hurricanes.

    LOL.

    Can you explain to me how one goes about disproving something that's not proven in the first place? Seems like all that any good "denier" would have to do to disprove AGW is ..... nothing.
    All one has to do is prove conclusively that something else has caused warming trends other than man-made greenhouse gases, and provide enough weight of evidence for honest scientists who actually are good critical thinkers to find that the evidence points to the alternative.

    It isn't some secret, it just takes people who are good at critical thinking, which is not something that political hacks who pretend to be scientists generally excel at.

    The right's problem with this is that, like WC and seemingly yourself, you can't envision people who don't really have a political agenda, because you are so mired in your own political blinders that it is inconceivable that there are people who aren't.

    "I am a political hack, so EVERYBODY must be a political hack of one shade or another, and incapable of honestly evaluating evidence."

    That is an erroneous assumption.

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