Is there a God?

[Phenomanul]

You didn't need to say all this. This is the kind of garbage I hear all the time. You guys will take anything for your own. If concrete proof shows up...god put it there. If another god showed up tomorrow and said you guys had it all wrong you'd say god did that to test us.

Oh oh I see how you did some calculations that pre-date his existence based on items that have nothing to do with religion........................................um yeah that was god working mkay.

Everything strengthens your argument. You guys have spent more time fabricating ways to tie up loose ends than you have understanding religion as a whole across the entire Earth.

Thats not a personal jab either so don't get up on your 100,000ft horse to tell me you know a lot about religion...it was a generalization.

I didn't arrive at this argument... I told you so the first time you tried using your illogical claims as irrefutable proof. You just didn't listen.

[Blake]

True.

So why the are we discussing this?

uh, probably because of statements like

"But I have read extensively about the origins of Chrstianity and I'm ready to debate how Christianity was born out of a myth (or not)."

I'm not saying I know for a fact one way or the other about any of this (as no one can....) but to keep on with this "prove Plato existed" is bogus argumentation.

If you have a handfull of stories regarding gods throwing lightning bolts, humans with super strength, or men walking on water and raising people from the dead, then if you feel you are right about one of these, then it is really on you to prove it.........it is not on B2B or anyone else to prove that Plato or George Washington or Saddam Hussein ever existed at all.

[Blake]

I was unaware that Adam and Eve were dated to any particular time...

Hence, how can you claim with any certainty that the egyptians pre-date them by thousands of years?

but you can claim with certainty that Adam and Eve existed in the Garden of Eden and were tossed out because they ate the wrong fruit?

ok, I'm listening.

[MiamiHeat]

How can you be sure any stories are the correct ones.

How do you know aliens haven't walked among us? Plenty of eyewitness accounts say they have.

what about the people around the world who live and died like tribes in the amazon and other places, that were completely unaware of the existence of our religions

i guess they go to

[Phenomanul]

but you can claim with certainty that Adam and Eve existed in the Garden of Eden and were tossed out because they ate the wrong fruit?

ok, I'm listening.

I accept that truth on grounds of faith. I've never stated otherwise.

[Phenomanul]

Don't change the subject. You've done this repeatedly.

what about the people around the world who live and died like tribes in the amazon and other places, that were completely unaware of the existence of our religions

i guess they go to

As for this question, I honestly don't know. I've often pondered about the same question; but the Word of GOD is vague on this issue. The answer may in fact be there, but people have not yet uncovered its relevance to this particular dilemma.

[BacktoBasics]

I didn't arrive at this argument... I told you so the first time you tried using your illogical claims as irrefutable proof. You just didn't listen.

Ironic you calling me illogical when you took a sound mathematical equation and turned it into supernatural magic happy time.

[BacktoBasics]

As for this question, I honestly don't know. I've often pondered about the same question; but the Word of GOD is vague on this issue. The answer may in fact be there, but people have not yet uncovered its relevance to this particular dilemma.

Angel Luv said the ignorant are innocent.

[Blake]

what about the people around the world who live and died like tribes in the amazon and other places, that were completely unaware of the existence of our religions

i guess they go to

that's one of my biggest questions that constantly goes unanswered.

[MiamiHeat]

seriously, we must be arguing with people who just want to make us argue for laughs

no rational, intelligent person when confronted with these problems will just dismiss them as meaningless.

[Blake]

Don't change the subject. You've done this repeatedly.



As for this question, I honestly don't know. I've often pondered about the same question; but the Word of GOD is vague on this issue. The answer may in fact be there, but people have not yet uncovered its relevance to this particular dilemma.

it means that if the ignorant are innocent then I want to beat the crap out of whoever told me about what I have to do get saved.

Apparently I was just fine before they came along.

[101A]

that's one of my biggest questions that constantly goes unanswered.

As a Christian I believe that the only way to the Lord is through Jesus Christ. He said so.


He didn't say when it had to happen, however.

[angel_luv]

Don't change the subject. You've done this repeatedly.



As for this question, I honestly don't know. I've often pondered about the same question; but the Word of GOD is vague on this issue. The answer may in fact be there, but people have not yet uncovered its relevance to this particular dilemma.

What do you think of this text?


Romans 1:19-20
Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

[Blake]

I accept that truth on grounds of faith. I've never stated otherwise.

and there you go.

By no means does anyone have any right to ask someone to disprove that Adam and Eve was the true story written by Jews.

[Blake]

What do you think of this text?


Romans 1:19-20
Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

so are Jews without excuse for not believing in Jesus being the Son of God?

It's obviously clear according to the book of Romans.

[BacktoBasics]

seriously, we must be arguing with people who just want to make us argue for laughs

We're arguing with people who turn anything into gods work.

Donut: Gods word
Paper: Gods word
Apple: Gods word

and so on. It reminds me of the old line "I told you so but what am I".

If you turn the burden of proof over to their side they have

1. No first hand accounts
2. No original text from the time that Jesus was alive
3. No physical evidence
4. Their own church questioning the authenticity of even the later writings

3 important things

at best they have writings that were pieced together and might and I say might be within 100 years of his death.

[DarkReign]

This thread has lost its luster, it was cooler some pages ago.

Look, athiests (myself included) need to get over how religious people view the world. Youre just going to have to accept that there are A LOT of people in this world who believe in imaginary men in the sky. Who through omnipotence, created every facet of every argument you could ever fathom to claim his nonexistence.

That there faith is so true and so real, we should teach alternatives to testable, provable science in public schools.

I aim this entire post at athiests because, honestly, these sorts of thread/topics are not perpetuated by the religious. They only respond to open criticism, as any self respecting human should.

Its fine, really. I mean, lets really take stock in what the debate is here.

In what way do the religious/athiest negatively affect my life? Right?

Athiests
Public schools and what their children are taught as fact or at least, arguable.
Political importance assigned to a belief you do not hold.
etc.

Religious
Lack of religious doctrine in juxtaposition to the scientific theories you hold as objectional.
Lack of morality in societal life (entertainment, interaction, appearance...basically a catch all)
etc

Ultimately ladies and gentlemen, this entire argument has the same equivalence to most people's response to something they dont like on televsion.

Change the ing channel.

Dont get me wrong, some (I would hope most) in this thread are just doing some verbal/intellectual sparring for the pure sport of it. Thats your business, so disregard if this applies to you (usually, this is me).

But for those who actually consider this an important topic and worth the attempt to change minds and influence people need to wake the up and change the channel.

First and foremost, if you have an opinion then that opinion will be given and repeated to your children. They will question their teachers on the important "taught in schools" issue and rightfully so. Now, if that debate between teacher/student causes controversy, thats a seperate issue entirely.

The lack of morality, which is an argument I rarely hear from the religious, its more just an opinion with no actionable method to address.

So really, what are you arguing about?

Change the ing channel. Some people's favorite color is blue, you prefer red. Deal with the difference, even if his preference for blue seems to tread on your sight lines from time to time.

Ultimately, it doesnt matter who is right, or even close.

If there is a God, and my salvation depends solely upon believing the words of other humans....then it was a setup to begin with. No God, low or high, would expect one human to trust another about anything, especially something as important as His existence. We are skeptical by nature because humans lie every 6 sentences. Yet He would expect me to ignore that truth about something as profound as this?!

No....God may be many things to many people, but one trait I would not associate with the Creator of Everything is illogic. He would totally understand, sorry if that offends some of you, especially the charlatans.

[MiamiHeat]

Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. We found the highest percentage of belief among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality).

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm

[angel_luv]

Angel Luv said the ignorant are innocent.

Wrong!

The verse I quoted* states that creation itself stand as a testimony of God's goodness and His existence and that therefore there is no excuse for anyone who refuses to acknowledge the presence of God.

* Romans 1;19-20- Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse

[angel_luv]

so are Jews without excuse for not believing in Jesus being the Son of God?

It's obviously clear according to the book of Romans.

Messianic Jews acknowledge and claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

[Blake]

As a Christian I believe that the only way to the Lord is through Jesus Christ. He said so.


He didn't say when it had to happen, however.

either way, I guess Jews are sccrewed

[Blake]

Messianic Jews acknowledge and claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

what about Hill Country Fare Jews

[Phenomanul]

Ironic you calling me illogical when you took a sound mathematical equation and turned it into supernatural magic happy time.

Equation???

Really?

Unless you are talking about Kepler's law of planetary motion (with Newton's correction factors).

Or about stellar motion (as defined by the latest Hubble observations - before it broke down).

Those were hardly "equations" to anything... Your mathematical bar must be set rather low, if you consider your statements as mathematical expressions to anything.... No wonder you just 'brushed' off the statistical significance of Jesus having embodied 300+ (363?) Messianic prophecies. The odds are staggeringly full-proof. Only the mathematically illiterate would do what you did and consider it 'faith, gospel-talk'. The statistical significance of such a historical match to a prescribed list is mind-blowing.

Surely your arguments were based on more than just ill-researched lies posted somewhere on the net.

[Kermit]

Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. We found the highest percentage of belief among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality).


The results were as follows (figures in %):

BELIEF IN PERSONAL GOD 1914 1933 1998

Personal belief 27.7 15 7.0
Personal disbelief 52.7 68 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.9 17 20.8

BELIEF IN IMMORTALITY 1914 1933 1998

Personal belief 35.2 18 7.9
Personal disbelief 25.4 53 76.7
Doubt or agnosticism 43.7 29 23.3

Note: The 1998 immortality figures add up to more than 100%. The misprint is in the original. The 76.7% is likely too high.

I've got to hand it to you. After seeing ES kick your ass up and down this thread, I thought that perhaps you might quit. But it's obvious that you're not a quitter and although you may have the intellect of Simple Jack, you have the for ude, perseverance, and tenacity that all of us pray we never possess (meaning that when we're proven to be horribly wrong, we step away from the computer and hope that everyone forgets).

[RandomGuy]

So B2B and MH, how can you explain that 12 ignorant fishermen from Galilea invented a religion that is alive 2,000 years later and is followed by more than 1 billion people?

Also, in your explanation, tell us why right after Christ's death and all through the first 300 years of the existance of this new religion, people were willing to die for their beliefs?

And I don't mean going to war for the Christian cause, but willing to die gruesome deaths after days of turture, simply because they were niot willing to deny Christ.

I am still waiting on someone to explain Scientology(tm).