just curious about people's belief systems....

[baseline bum]

I don't attribute randomness to evolution or natural selection, but I attribute a chance or probability of the offspring to flourish in there enviornment and pass on the genes that favor their survival. For example what are your chances of surviving in the Sahara Desert, if you are not naturally adapted to the enviornment? And even if you are there is still the chance of not finding adequate food or shelter, and being attacked which factors in if you survive or not.

If I'm there on my own, not very good. But clearly things have adapted to survive in harsh deserts. In the last few posts, are you making an argument that there are/were likely no other Earth-like systems in the universe?

[Blake]

What if you never even heard about said inheritance?

won't matter.

Not only will you still be at fault for not taking the money, but you will be thrown in a lake of burning fire for not taking it.

[E20]

If I'm there on my own, not very good. But clearly things have adapted to survive in harsh deserts. In the last few posts, are you making an argument that there are/were likely no other Earth-like systems in the universe?

Not that, but it took billions of years of successful adaptations and evolution to bring about humans. A lot of things had to go in order for life to survive to produce the species that are present today and Earth's climate and enviornment were a big plus towards that. Also, I am not saying that there are not other planets that are similar to Earth, I've read that there are many Earth like plants that orbit Stars similar to the Sun, but what I am skeptic about is that if these planets have had the same success of producing speices on Earth's level, however, I am not saying for a definitive fact that there isn't intelligent life, because for all we know at the end of the Universe there could be somebody having the exact same discussion we are. My expectations for life on other planets are towards microbes, single/multi-cellular organisms, aquatic life, insects, and animals on the level of Marsupials, anything capable of thought and expression would be breathtaking and an enormus find/discovery.

[Blake]

IMO It's too long to write, but I think Adam or the first Sapien was black. LOL It would sound far fetched to somebody other than me, but it makes sense to me.

well, Adam may be black, but at least I can rest at night knowing that Jesus was a handsome white, wavy haired, blue-eyed man.

[Blake]

Not that, but it took billions of years of successful adaptations and evolution to bring about humans. A lot of things had to go in order for life to survive to produce the species that are present today and Earth's climate and enviornment were a big plus towards that. Also, I am not saying that there are not other planets that are similar to Earth, I've read that there are many Earth like plants that orbit Stars similar to the Sun, but what I am skeptic about is that if these planets have had the same success of producing speices on Earth's level, however, I am not saying for a definitive fact that there isn't intelligent life, because for all we know at the end of the Universe there could be somebody having the exact same discussion we are. My expectations for life on other planets are towards microbes, single/multi-cellular organisms, aquatic life, insects, and animals on the level of Marsupials, anything capable of thought and expression would be breathtaking and an enormus find/discovery.

for all practical purposes, a +1 for me

[leemajors]

I talk in the general direction of the Author of my Faith on a daily basis.

[baseline bum]

Not that, but it took billions of years of successful adaptations and evolution to bring about humans. A lot of things had to go in order for life to survive to produce the species that are present today and Earth's climate and enviornment were a big plus towards that. Also, I am not saying that there are not other planets that are similar to Earth, I've read that there are many Earth like plants that orbit Stars similar to the Sun, but what I am skeptic about is that if these planets have had the same success of producing speices on Earth's level, however, I am not saying for a definitive fact that there isn't intelligent life, because for all we know at the end of the Universe there could be somebody having the exact same discussion we are. My expectations for life on other planets are towards microbes, single/multi-cellular organisms, aquatic life, insects, and animals on the level of Marsupials, anything capable of thought and expression would be breathtaking and an enormus find/discovery.

There's evidence that a lot of things have gone wrong on this planet too that have destroyed complex life and made evolution start over from simple organisms; the Earth being a huge ball of ice a billion years ago, the various times the planet has had enormous chains of volcanoes erupting at the same time, the asteroid that hit the Yucatan 65 million years ago, and so on. Yet, very complex life-forms keep coming back over and over again due to natural selection being an efficient process that rewards mutations beneficial to survival. Once any kind of life appears, natural selection can take over. If it can take over in an environment similar to Earth and there are many bodies similar to earth in our universe, then it seems highly likely it will have somewhere created life forms and diversity on the order of complexity we see here.

I'm not trying to argue life on our magnitude of complexity (or even on the level of single-cell organisms) is all that probable in any local part of the universe, but the number of stars, planets, etc. in the universe is so great that probability really wouldn't favor our universe being devoid of life forms as complex as us anywhere else. Let's say the probability of no complex life form existing in some small packet of stars is almost certain... i.e., near, but always bounded by some number x < 1.0 (x can be arbitrarily close). Let us assume independence (seemingly roughly true, as we get our energy from the core of the planet and from the sun, not from xrays from distant binaries or light from Alpha Centauri). Then the probability of no life form on our scale of complexity existing outside of Earth is the product of those terms, which will converge to zero as the number of packets of stars gets large (|x|<1 implies x^n -> 0). There are some holes in this sloppy argument, namely what if the probability of the packets of stars having no complex life satisfies a limit converging to 1 (and therefore, the probability for the packets cannot be bounded by any x<1).

I guess my main argument is that n is pretty large (n=number of small packets of stars).

[Blake]

I know that n is pretty dang large, but I still can't help but feel the odds are still too great for there to be other intelligent life out there on our same level.

If there was just one other planet out there with intelligent life that we knew about, then I would think odds jump fantastically exponentially that there is intelligent life on more than 2 planets.

Heck, if there was more than just humans on this planet alone that were highly intelligent, I might tend to lean more towards there being intelligent life on other planets.

My next question is what is the source that sparked life into being? And just because a planet is capable of supporting life, does that mean the chances are high that sooner or later that life will pop up and thrive on it?

I know we are limited in our knowledge, but I can't get past a lot of that when it comes to odds and probabilities.

[baseline bum]

I know that n is pretty dang large, but I still can't help but feel the odds are still too great for there to be other intelligent life out there on our same level.

If there was just one other planet out there with intelligent life that we knew about, then I would think odds jump fantastically exponentially that there is intelligent life on more than 2 planets.

Heck, if there was more than just humans on this planet alone that were highly intelligent, I might tend to lean more towards there being intelligent life on other planets.

Unfortunately, evolution would most likely have to create life many orders of magnitude more complex than us for us to ever be contacted, due to the speed of light limitation I referenced in earlier posts.

My next question is what is the source that sparked life into being? And just because a planet is capable of supporting life, does that mean the chances are high that sooner or later that life will pop up and thrive on it?

I don't think so. Life coming from non-life has to be something incredibly rare. However, once it's there, natural selection should take out a lot of the randomness.

[E20]

Can't argue with that.

[Blake]

I don't think so. Life coming from non-life has to be something incredibly rare. However, once it's there, natural selection should take out a lot of the randomness.

I concur.

[tlongII]

I don't think there's any question that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. What you need to keep in mind is that we don't possess the technology to discover extra-terrestrial life yet. We're barely able to check out are neighboring planets at this time. The way we have discovered other planetary systems is by observing irregularities in other stars movements. We aren't actually able to see the planet. One day our technology will advance so we can see what's out there, but I doubt it will be in my lifetime.

[Blake]

I don't think there's any question that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. What you need to keep in mind is that we don't possess the technology to discover extra-terrestrial life yet. We're barely able to check out are neighboring planets at this time. The way we have discovered other planetary systems is by observing irregularities in other stars movements. We aren't actually able to see the planet. One day our technology will advance so we can see what's out there, but I doubt it will be in my lifetime.

do you think that we've been visited?

[tlongII]

do you think that we've been visited?

It's possible, but I doubt it. The thing that makes me hesitate on that subject are things like carvings in the land in South America that you can only make out from the sky. Those things are ancient and I don't know why they are there.

[Blake]

It's possible, but I doubt it. The thing that makes me hesitate on that subject are things like carvings in the land in South America that you can only make out from the sky. Those things are ancient and I don't know why they are there.

you know, I haven't heard much from crop circle people lately......wondering if it's due to our increased ability to see and record every bit of the earth....

[angel_luv]

still doesnt answer the question but how bout this....

since God gave you free will, how bout you say in your own words what you believe........verse free.

First of all, I apologise for my late response. I am without internet at home and so have not been online since my last post.

Since you asked...

I believe Jesus is the one and only Savior of the world. I believe that it is by grace, through faith that we are saved. I believe that salvation requires both believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth.

I believe that all men only live and die once, so better get it right this lifetime.

I believe that life with Jesus, though not trouble free, is better than any alternative the world ever has or ever will offer.

I believe that no matter how crazy anyone finds my devotion to Jesus that there will come a day when EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

I believe that Jesus loves everyone and has so much faith that all of you will make the right decision- choose Him- that He is already building you each glorious mansions in Heaven.

I hope I live on the same Heavenly blocks as David Robinson, Bruce Bowen Malik Rose and Rasho.
Also, if Beno, Hedo, and Manu are not Christians yet, I hope they become Christian so I can live near them too.
Basketball block party!

And I really hope Avery Johnson's mansion is over the hill from mine. J/K!

[Blake]

I believe Jesus is the one and only Savior of the world.

of the world or the entire universe.....in case there are intelligent aliens?

I believe that all men only live and die once, so better get it right this lifetime.

better get what right? my belief system? What makes your belief system more right than Phil Jackson's?

I believe that life with Jesus, though not trouble free, is better than any alternative the world ever has or ever will offer.

I believe sleeping in on Sunday mornings feels so much better than having to get up and get dressed to go listen to someone tell me that I will go to if I don't believe that Jesus died on the cross...........right before the plate gets passed around.

I believe that no matter how crazy anyone finds my devotion to Jesus that there will come a day when EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

If I'm going to for eternity, why would I bow to the one sending me there?

......unless he forces me to bow.......which throws out free will......

I believe that Jesus loves everyone and has so much faith that all of you will make the right decision- choose Him- that He is already building you each glorious mansions in Heaven.

I hope I live on the same Heavenly blocks as David Robinson, Bruce Bowen Malik Rose and Rasho.
Also, if Beno, Hedo, and Manu are not Christians yet, I hope they become Christian so I can live near them too.
Basketball block party!

And I really hope Avery Johnson's mansion is over the hill from mine. J/K!

right, because it would take an eternity to have to go to their mansion if they lived in another Heavenly zip code.....


ive got another question.......mostly about free will......

Christians feel that once they die and go to Heaven, that the urge to sin will be gone.

Is this your view too?

If so, then is free will suddenly gone?

[angel_luv]

of the world or the entire universe.....in case there are intelligent aliens?



better get what right? my belief system? What makes your belief system more right than Phil Jackson's?



I believe sleeping in on Sunday mornings feels so much better than having to get up and get dressed to go listen to someone tell me that I will go to if I don't believe that Jesus died on the cross...........right before the plate gets passed around.



If I'm going to for eternity, why would I bow to the one sending me there?

......unless he forces me to bow.......which throws out free will......



right, because it would take an eternity to have to go to their mansion if they lived in another Heavenly zip code.....


ive got another question.......mostly about free will......

Christians feel that once they die and go to Heaven, that the urge to sin will be gone.

Is this your view too?

If so, then is free will suddenly gone?

I am beginning to wonder if I can ever answer a question to your satisfaction.

[jack sommerset]

I hope I live on the same Heavenly blocks as David Robinson, Bruce Bowen Malik Rose and Rasho.
Also, if Beno, Hedo, and Manu are not Christians yet, I hope they become Christian so I can live near them too.
Basketball block party!

That is weird.

[Blake]

I am beginning to wonder if I can ever answer a question to your satisfaction.

Don't worry about my "satisfaction". I'm not asking you these questions so that I can try to put down your intelligence or make fun of you or say you are wrong and I am right. I honestly enjoy good discussions/debates.

And even if you never type another word in this thread, it's a healthy exercise to question everything that's in front of you.


It's funny, I was talking to a buddy last night who said his mother in law got mad at him for voting for Obama because she was sure he was the anti-christ.........I immediately thought of you and a scary thought crossed my mind that apparently this sentiment is held by a whole lot more people than I realized.....

all people that aren't thinking for themselves.

[angel_luv]

Don't worry about my "satisfaction". I'm not asking you these questions so that I can try to put down your intelligence or make fun of you or say you are wrong and I am right. I honestly enjoy good discussions/debates.

It is an honor and a pleasure ( mostly ) to talk with you.

of the world or the entire universe.....in case there are intelligent aliens?

I don't think there is life outside of the earth. I know there are numerous galaxies but I believe earth is the only place- other than Heaven and - that is occupied.

better get what right? my belief system? What makes your belief system more right than Phil Jackson's?]

Given my belief that there is only one true God, it must follow that anyone who suggest otherwise is in the wrong.

I can't believe both that Jesus is the only Savior and that Phil Jackson has within his own power the ability to find the way to Heaven.
If Jesus is the only way ( and I know He is) then there is no other way- no matter how popular and well travelled.

I believe sleeping in on Sunday mornings feels so much better than having to get up and get dressed to go listen to someone tell me that I will go to if I don't believe that Jesus died on the cross...........right before the plate gets passed around.

That is your call.

If you would visit my church, I think you would find it to be uplifiting- one hundred percent different than the fire and damnation experiences you described.
Open invite. Anytime, you are welcome to come.

If I'm going to for eternity, why would I bow to the one sending me there?

......unless he forces me to bow.......which throws out free will......

Free will only applies to this lifetime. Once your body dies, your spirit goes on to live with whichever Father it has chosen- either God in Heaven or Satan in .
By rejecting Jesus, you are automatically choosing Satan.
There are only those two choices, according to the Scriptures.

right, because it would take an eternity to have to go to their mansion if they lived in another Heavenly zip code.....

I made joke!

ive got another question.......mostly about free will......

Christians feel that once they die and go to Heaven, that the urge to sin will be gone.

Is this your view too?

If so, then is free will suddenly gone?

I don't know exactly what Heaven is like- having never been there.
As for me, after waiting my whole life to meet Jesus, I can't imagine wanting to anywhere than in His presence, forever united with Him and all my Christian loved ones that are also there.

[baseline bum]

It's possible, but I doubt it. The thing that makes me hesitate on that subject are things like carvings in the land in South America that you can only make out from the sky. Those things are ancient and I don't know why they are there.

Perhaps they made them for their gods in the sky to see.

[Blake]

Free will only applies to this lifetime.

really?

ok, try to follow me here....

if there is no more free will in Heaven, then how is it that Lucifer came to know sin?

on top of that, what is the point of free will to begin with if God is going to just take it away later? It's common knowledge that the whole point of God creating Man was to have a free thinking friend instead of a robot.

Why is our ultimate prize an eternal life living in a robotic state?.....in a mansion?

[angel_luv]

really?

ok, try to follow me here....

if there is no more free will in Heaven, then how is it that Lucifer came to know sin?

on top of that, what is the point of free will to begin with if God is going to just take it away later? It's common knowledge that the whole point of God creating Man was to have a free thinking friend instead of a robot.

Why is our ultimate prize an eternal life living in a robotic state?.....in a mansion?

Good questions.

I don't know the exact answers to any of them.

I can tell you though that I don't believe I will be in a robotic state in Heaven. I believe I will be fully aware and completely delighted in the presence of God, whom I have chosen and served.

[angel_luv]

If everything could be explained, faith would not be possible or necessary.