Israel wiping the floor with Palestine

[RandomGuy]

OMFG! This thread took an amazingly dumb detour!

What thread here doesn't sooner or later?

I would be more suprised if an emotionally charged thread didn't.

[Winehole23]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112...rice_newsmlmmd

Rice shame-faced by Bush over UN Gaza vote: Olmert

AFP/Getty Images/File – U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice speaks during a news conference at the State Department in Washington, …

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JERUSALEM (AFP) – US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was left shame-faced after President George W. Bush ordered her to abstain in a key UN vote on the Gaza war, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said on Monday.


"She was left shamed. A resolution that she prepared and arranged, and in the end she did not vote in favour," Olmert said in a speech in the southern town of Ashkelon.
The UN Security Council passed a resolution last Thursday calling for an immediate ceasefire in the three-week-old conflict in the Gaza Strip and an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza where hundreds have been killed.


Fourteen of the council's 15 members voted in favour of the resolution, which was later rejected by both Israel and Hamas.


The United States, Israel's main ally, had initially been expected to voted in line with the other 14 but Rice later became the sole abstention.


"In the night between Thursday and Friday, when the secretary of state wanted to lead the vote on a ceasefire at the Security Council, we did not want her to vote in favour," Olmert said.


"I said 'get me President Bush on the phone'. They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn't care. 'I need to talk to him now'. He got off the podium and spoke to me.


"I told him the United States could not vote in favour. It cannot vote in favour of such a resolution. He immediately called the secretary of state and told her not to vote in favour."


Bush has consistently placed the blame for the conflict on Hamas, telling reporters on Monday that while he wanted to see a "sustainable ceasefire" in Gaza, it was up to Hamas to choose to end its rocket fire on Israel.


But a US State Department official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, denied Olmert's claim.


"Mr. Olmert is wrong," the official said.


Even if everything had gone according to plan, "she would have abstained. That was the plan," said the official. "The government of Israel does not make US policy."

[DarkReign]

What ing joke.

Agree with Condi/Bush or not, the fact that some piss-ant country in the middle of nowhere even gets the kind of attention Israel does is pathetic.

Olmert telling our President what to do? Come the on....

[jochhejaam]

Agree with Condi/Bush or not, the fact that some piss-ant country...

Why do you consider Israel a pissant Country?

...in the middle of nowhere...

Do you have a rational explanation for your characterization of the Middle East as being "nowhere"?

...even gets the kind of attention Israel does is pathetic.

Like it or not, Israel is an ally to the United States, and attention we give them keeps them from being annihilated by rogue nations and terrorists.

Do you have any friends you would be willing to do anything for, or are you a person that would turn his back on a friend if enough people pressured you to do so?

"There is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend" -John-

[sook]

I always thought that we ran Israel, because without us Israel is basically nothing, but i guess i had it the other way around.

I don't like Bush too much, but i would have wanted him to slap Olmert in the face for using that demeanor.

[sook]

Why do you consider Israel a pissant Country?



Do you have a rational explanation for your characterization of the Middle East as being "nowhere"?



Like it or not, Israel is an ally to the United States, and attention we give them keeps them from being annihilated by rogue nations and terrorists.

Do you have any friends you would be willing to do anything for, or are you a person that would turn his back on a friend if enough people pressured you to do so?

"There is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend" -John-

Are you fugging serious? Its not our damn job to ensure their existence, do we do that with any of our other allies? Before you say anything, why is Israel such a great Ally, what do they do for us? I know they give us a bad rep in the mid east but apart from that? Is it really their place to tell our government what to do? We just gave those ungrateful bas s tons of ammo to kill more children in their pathetic self defense excuse of an operation.

Oh, and on your friend analogy, i think the tiest friend would be the one that would keep his mouth shut and wouldn't tell his buddy he was doing something wrong. But that doesn't apply here, because this is a and master relationship. And *hint, we're not the master.

[sook]

I cited stories supporting a range of 90-300 Hamas killed. The low end comes from an Islamic human rights group.

The high end ( the UN estimate) is even higher than the Israeli figure of 300, so we can safely disregard the UN estimate. Forget all about it.

Where do you get your figure of 20 Hamas killed, sook?

No dodging...no hoarding the knowledge...please provide a link to support your post.

oh sorry i didn't read this. Yea i will admit i said something off the top of my head, no facts here, you're right.

[jochhejaam]

Are you fugging serious? Its not our damn job to ensure their existence, do we do that with any of our other allies?

If we had another ally under the constant threat of attack, yes, we would come to their aid.

Before you say anything, why is Israel such a great Ally, what do they do for us?

Does a Country have to be in a position to come to our aid for them to be an ally?
I'll pose a question to you that is similar to the one I left with my good friend DR;
Does someone have to be in a position to help you out in order for them to be your friend? I was taught that; "those who are strong are to bear the infirmities of those that are weak".

I know they give us a bad rep in the mid east but apart from that? Is it really their place to tell our government what to do?

No, it's not, and Olmert telling us to abstain was debunked, was it not?

We just gave those ungrateful bas s tons of ammo to kill more children in their pathetic self defense excuse of an operation.

I've read more that a bit of the posts and this thread sook, and you and I are not going to end up agreeing with the hows and whys of the Israeli, Hamas conflict. Hamas has the ability to end this at any time by agreeing to a truce, the fact that they don't do so, while continuing to launch rockets at Israel from civilian populated areas speaks volumes about how much they care about their civilians.

Oh, and on your friend analogy, i think the tiest friend would be the one that would keep his mouth shut and wouldn't tell his buddy he was doing something wrong. But that doesn't apply here, because this is a and master relationship. And *hint, we're not the master.

As previously stated, we will not agree on much, and this is no exception.

[sook]

If we had another ally under the constant threat of attack, yes, we would come to their aid.





Does a Country have to be in a position to come to our aid for them to be an ally?
I'll pose a question to you that is similar to the one I left with my good friend DR;
Does someone have to be in a position to help you out in order for them to be your friend? I was taught that; "those who are strong are to bear the infirmities of those that are weak".




No, it's not, and Olmert telling us to abstain was debunked, was it not?



I've read more that a bit of the posts and this thread sook, and you and I are not going to end up agreeing with the hows and whys of the Israeli, Hamas conflict. Hamas has the ability to end this at any time by agreeing to a truce, the fact that they don't do so, while continuing to launch rockets at Israel from civilian populated areas speaks volumes about how much they care about their civilians.



As previously stated, we will not agree on much, and this is no exception.

i think your point was smart. We won't agree on much. But i don't want to make it look like i am a Hamaas supporter, i think the bas s need to be eliminated, but they can't be stopped militarily, which is why Israel is re ed.

Btw, why was it debunked? Do you expect an Official to concede to the fact they dictate our policy? Its either that or you are calling Olmert a liar, i don't see why he would lie about something like that.

[Winehole23]

No, it's not, and Olmert telling us to abstain was debunked, was it not?

The stuff about Olmert demanding Bush on the phone in the middle of a speech was surely bluster, but why would Olmert misrepresent himself about lobbying for an abstention? The WH did not deny there was a call. It only denied that Israel makes US policy.

The SC resolution was largely crafted by Sec'y Rice. Why would she abstain from voting on a deal she put together herself?

I suppose odder things have happened in the course of diplomacy, but this is pretty odd. Perhaps Ms. Rice exceeded her mandate and the President reeled her in. Or maybe we can take Mr. Olmert at his word. Maybe we abstained as a favor to our ally. Is that really so improbable?

At any rate, both sides rejected the truce resolution anyway, so it appears a yes vote would have cost the US and her ally Israel very little. It might even have been beneficial for the US, without doing any de facto damage to the US-Israel tie.

[jochhejaam]

The stuff about Olmert demanding Bush on the phone in the middle of a speech was surely bluster, but why would Olmert misrepresent himself about lobbying for an abstention? The WH did not deny there was a call. It only denied that Israel makes US policy.

What I meant to convey, and I didn't do a very good job of it, is that the United States is not taking orders from Olmert or Israel.
Perhaps Olmert takes the same position at the negotiating table that labor unions do, that is; ask for more than you expect and hope to get what you can live with.

The SC resolution was largely crafted by Sec'y Rice. Why would she abstain from voting on a deal she put together herself?
I suppose odder things have happened in the course of diplomacy, but this is pretty odd. Perhaps Ms. Rice exceeded her mandate and the President reeled her in. Or maybe we can take Mr. Olmert at his word. Maybe we abstained as a favor to our ally. Is that really so improbable?

The deal Rice put together "herself" (I have a hard time believing that she crafted the deal without any input from anyone else whatsoever) was more moderate than what others came up with. As with Olmert it may have been somewhat of a compromise from what we would have considered an ideal deal (it seemed to me that Bush was originally giving them carte blanche with whatever they decided should be done to Hamas), but more palatable than what had previoulsy been brought to the table.
Abstaining for the sake of an ally is also plausible.

[Winehole23]

The deal Rice put together "herself" (I have a hard time believing that she crafted the deal without any input from anyone else whatsoever)

I did not say so. But according to accounts much of the language in it was was proposed by Sec'y Rice. That is why her abstention came as a surprise to the other members.

For the record, I don't think Israel dictates policy to the US. But I do think the US, at times, is excessively deferential to Israel. Our respective interests are far from identical. Even the best of friends will disagree, sometimes about very important things. It would be strange if they never did, wouldn't it?

[Winehole23]

It would be strange if they never did, wouldn't it?

For example, I think this will come as a surprise to many on this board:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/wa...&scp=1&sq=iran attack&st=cse

[jochhejaam]

I did not say so. But according to accounts much of the language in it was was proposed by Sec'y Rice. That is why her abstention came as a surprise to the other members.

That was for the record (I know, duly noted), not directed at you.

For the record, I don't think Israel dictates policy to the US. But I do think the US, at times, is excessively deferential to Israel. Our respective interests are far from identical.

Excessively differential? Sure, but by our choice, not Israel strongarming us.
As far as I can determine, when it comes to the biggies, Israel asks, and ultimately defers to our opinion.

Even the best of friends will disagree, sometimes about very important things. It would be strange if they never did, wouldn't it?

I'll assume that's rhetorical.

[Winehole23]

Excessively differential? Sure, but by our choice, not Israel strongarming us.

The power of the Israel lobby in the US -- though it is surely exaggerated by some -- ought not to be underestimated.

As far as I can determine, when it comes to the biggies, Israel asks, and ultimately defers to our opinion.

Please find the link immediately above your last post. I agree.

[BlackSwordsMan]

There's a link you can watch the war live. =]

[jochhejaam]

Please find the link immediately above your last post. I agree.

You can feel the tension in the article, good read. The information in the article underscores the tenuous nature of the Israeli-Iran conflict.

Robert Gates appears to be quite level-headed, perhaps key to preventing an unnecessary or premature escalation of hostilities between Iran and Israel, although I believe a catastrophic confrontation is an eventuality, and more than likely, inevitable.

[DarkReign]

Why do you consider Israel a pissant Country?

Because it is. The only value Israel brings to the US is a testing area for new weapons technology. Its a literal sandbox for the military industrial complex to test theyre latest and greatest techs in a known area of constant "warfare".

Thats the way I see it anyway.

Do you have a rational explanation for your characterization of the Middle East as being "nowhere"?

Really? If you take away the Middle East's ancient history and its one and only natural resource, what exact value does it have?

There is no more Silk Road. Beyond its military positioning for the bull War on Terror, what advantages does it offer?

None. Especially Israel. Theyre favorable with the US for God-only-knows-why (my guess, the military testing grounds and the military convenience of a presence in the Middle East which is only good for oil.)

Like it or not, Israel is an ally to the United States, and attention we give them keeps them from being annihilated by rogue nations and terrorists.

Do you have any friends you would be willing to do anything for, or are you a person that would turn his back on a friend if enough people pressured you to do so?

Israel is one uva friend, arent they? What, they only cost us something to the tune of $60 billion a year to stay our friend.

Are you in the business of buying friends? I know I am not. Nor should our country be. Israel offers nothing beyond the military advantages mentioned earlier, IMO.

And to be honest, those arent nearly good enough for me.

"There is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend" -John-

Save it. Its this exact reason we have any interest in Israel to begin with. They read from a similar Book. Beyond that, not much in common (save a hate for terrorists).

Lets cut-off our billion dollar donations to Israel (or , even halve it) and see how much of a friend they really are. They (the Jews in power in Israel) cater to American interests only because we pay them to do so. They are not our friends in any way, shape or form beyond the monetary relationship.

[DarkReign]

As far as I can determine, when it comes to the biggies, Israel asks, and ultimately defers to our opinion.

Because. We. Pay. Them.

No other reason (unlike Britain, the US' only true ally).

[Extra Stout]

Electoral votes:
New York 31
Florida 27
Michigan 17

Final score: Israel 58, Palestine 17. Israel wins!

[DarkReign]

Electoral votes:
New York 31
Florida 27
Michigan 17

Final score: Israel 58, Palestine 17. Israel wins!

I didnt realize Florida had a large Jewish population. Michigan certainly does.

Then again, maybe I dont get what youre saying.

[MannyIsGod]

I didnt realize Florida had a large Jewish population. Michigan certainly does.

Then again, maybe I dont get what youre saying.

He's saying Jewish interests are far more important to American politicos because of their electorate and he's right. But it goes farther than simply Jews because a lot of Christians relate faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more to Jews than Muslims.

[DarkReign]

He's saying Jewish interests are far more important to American politicos because of their electorate and he's right. But it goes farther than simply Jews because a lot of Christians relate faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more to Jews than Muslims.

Is that reason enough to finance their very existence and cow-tow to their policy in the UN (as if the UN is relevant anymore, but you get the idea)?

This entire premise is bothersome to say the least. Israel offers nothing of significance to the United States and its interests, save for its position on the globe (which owes its very existence to the Allies in the first place, namely the US and Britain).

I just dont think we owe Israel on a stick much less a veto-holding vote in the UN.

WTF would Israel do without the US? What would the US do without Israel?

This entire relationship is the most dysfunctional, unexplainable and as completely one-sided as any I can think of. There is just little to no reason for our constant capitulance to the tiny, insignificant state of Israel. None.

I think what youre saying is that Jewish people can influence a national election with their presence in certain large-electoral states?

Am I reading that correctly? If thats one of the reasons we as an entire country are breaking our backs to satisfy the wills of a nation equivalent to a developed Venezula, its all the more reason to drop the pretense of their importance.

They are not important. Theyre important in the Middle East, thats it. Which as of now, we have interet in (although it is an interest I care to never understand...they have oil, thats it...take it, secure it, and let them figure out how to kill each other better for all I give a ).

[Extra Stout]

He's saying Jewish interests are far more important to American politicos because of their electorate and he's right. But it goes farther than simply Jews because a lot of Christians relate faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more to Jews than Muslims.

In light of the history of Western civilization, living in a red-state suburb has to be like a lifelong episode of the Twilight Zone for an American Jew.

[RandomGuy]

In light of the history of Western civilization, living in a red-state suburb has to be like a lifelong episode of the Twilight Zone for an American Jew.

Bacon, bacon everywhere and nary a deli to dine at...