Am I the only sane person left?

[Creepn]

Unity ? you are mistaken and decieved if you think unity is the goal or even achievable.

I see a black president up there. Took more than blacks to get that man elected.

[whottt]

So you're from the religion of the free market taking care of our people? The same free market that has run to China and replaced good-paying manufacturing jobs with health care for ty service jobs at Wal-Mart and Target with absolutely no benefits? The past 20 years our hands-off government has helped the free market's invisible hand to get and tighten its grip around the throats of Americans, whether it's the job loss to China and Mexico, letting Enron rape the state of California with inflated energy costs and rolling blackouts, the oil bubble last year, or the housing/credit bubble made 1000x worse by unregulated speculation.

What a simple minded view of the world...and you just place it all the feet of Consevatives or Bush?

How old are you?


Even more hilarious, you think Obama(citizen of the world)'s policies are going to fix this?

He's going to be the worst ever about it...as he's clearly not an America first type guys...that's the problem I have with him...not that he's likely corrupt, but that he's not patriotically corrupt.

PS: You must not have been following politics during the Clinton years.

[baseline bum]

What a simple minded view of the world...and you just place it all the feet of Consevatives or Bush?

How old are you?

You must not have been following politics during the Clinton years.

You really are a stupid . The last 20 years include Clinton you head, and I hate him for selling us out to China.

[baseline bum]

What a simple minded view of the world.

I'm the one with the simple-minded view? Your post is government-bad, unchecked free market-good.

[Darrin]

On the contrary. I belive in twenty years, we'll look at back at this hysteria and realize that this moment wasn't near as monumental as the The Dred Scott case, MLK's speech etc. Much like Obama's big speech on race/Wright during the campaign that many were claiming was his "Gettysburge-esque" speech. I knew two seconds afterwards that that speech accomplished nothing and he would still have to hear about Rev. Wright until he out-right denounced him (which he eventually did).

Wednesday, we're going to have uneployment over 7% and moving upward. We're going to have a trillion dollar deficit, a post-bubble housing market, two military conflicts and social security en lements for the majority of our population on the horizon.

Being black doesn't make Obama a great man. Being a good speaker doesn't make Obama a great man. Lets wait until he solves any of our problems or gets the country to come together on any issue before we wear the "yes we did!" buttons.

I suggest reading his book the Audacity of Hope. He describes his life experiences and his beliefs. Those beliefs and how he handled himself in the campaign were why I came to the conclusion he was a good man and a promising leader.

As far as Reverend Wright is concerned, the man shares his anger or at least empathizes with him. He would have to resign from the church anyway. But when he lost a political battle he stood up and told the American people what he thought in a very fatherly manner. If you wish to be cynical or think only in politics, he was able to sway Africans to believe he was black enough. I choose to see the former.

[implacable44]

I suggest reading his book the Audacity of Hope. He describes his life experiences and his beliefs. Those beliefs and how he handled himself in the campaign were why I came to the conclusion he was a good man and a promising leader.

As far as Reverend Wright is concerned, the man shares his anger or at least empathizes with him. He would have to resign from the church anyway. But when he lost a political battle he stood up and told the American people what he thought in a very fatherly manner. If you wish to be cynical or think only in politics, he was able to sway Africans to believe he was black enough. I choose to see the former.

then you know he is very Marxist in his beliefs.

[whottt]

I'm the one with the simple-minded view? Your post is government-bad, unchecked free market-good.

, government is bad is not near as simplistic as government as good...and unlike your belief, the government is bad philisophy is easily proven, whereas the government is good philosophy is pretty much impossible to prove.


On top of that...I want you ask yourself why just about the biggest beneficiaries of that unchecked free market abuse, back your boy Barrack Obama.

[DarkReign]

On top of that...I want you ask yourself why just about the biggest beneficiaries of that unchecked free market abuse, back your boy Barrack Obama.

Because government is a bought and paid for commodity, regardless of political affiliation?

They went with the front-runner and won. Big whoop?

[baseline bum]

, government is bad is not near as simplistic as government as good...and unlike your belief, the government is bad philisophy is easily proven, whereas the government is good philosophy is pretty much impossible to prove.


On top of that...I want you ask yourself why just about the biggest beneficiaries of that unchecked free market abuse, back your boy Barrack Obama.

You live in a real fantasy world, thinking this country would be better of by neutering anything that puts the free market in check. Worked out well for you the last year, right?

[whottt]

Because government is a bought and paid for commodity, regardless of political affiliation?

They went with the front-runner and won. Big whoop?

No offense, but I lost interest in anything you had to say once I figures out your seemingly unlimited capacity for self deception and prevarication...

You are either the most dishonest poster on this entire forum, or the most confused, either way, I get as much enjoyment out of any sort of a debate with you as I would ripping my ball hairs out one by one.

IOW, go tell it to somebody who gives a ...

[Darrin]

then you know he is very Marxist in his beliefs.

He talks of the common good, yes. Is he un-American? No. I think Clinton, Bush, and Reagan come off as greedy when they talk of capitalistic ideals.

[whottt]

You live in a real fantasy world, thinking this country would be better of by neutering anything that puts the free market in check.

Dude...you live in a fantasy world of thinking governments are competent.

The way you combat free market abuse is not by government intervention...the way you combat it is by compe ion.

The way you combat it is by citizen organization, not government intervention.

Any sort of wealth distribution works much better also, when citizens work this sort of thing out amongst themselves...not by the government getting involved.

Middlemen things up base...

Worked out well for you the last year, right?

Actually, my economy is much improved over the past year....especially since the market collapse.

[baseline bum]

No offense, but I lost interest in anything you had to say once I figures out your seemingly unlimited capacity for self deception and prevarication...

You are either the most dishonest poster on this entire forum, or the most confused, either way, I get as much enjoyment out of any sort of a debate with you as I would ripping my ball hairs out one by one.

IOW, go tell it to somebody who gives a ...

This, coming from the person who constantly tried to make a case that Palin wasn't a politician?

[baseline bum]

Dude...you live in a fantasy world of thinking governments are competent.

The way you combat free market abuse is not by government intervention...the way you combat it is by compe ion.

The way you combat it is by citizen organization, not government intervention.

Any sort of wealth distribution works much better also, when citizens work this sort of thing out amongst themselves...not by the government getting involved.

Middlemen things up base...



Actually, my economy is much improved over the past year....especially since the market collapse.

Tell me how we compete with slave-level labor cost in China if we allow the conservative dogma of free-trade to hold.

[DarkReign]

No offense, but I lost interest in anything you had to say once I figures out your seemingly unlimited capacity for self deception and prevarication...

You are either the most dishonest poster on this entire forum, or the most confused, either way, I get as much enjoyment out of any sort of a debate with you as I would ripping my ball hairs out one by one.

IOW, go tell it to somebody who gives a ...

Well, you knew it before you started Im sure, but you win.

What whottt thinks of me will keep me awake at night, you blind partisan hack.

[whottt]

Tell me how we compete with slave-labor prices in China if we allow the conservative dogma of free-trade to hold.

Simple...you don't by products made in China. If no one buys them then it becomes an unlucrative practice for them. If you are taliking about world trade...well there's not much you can do about it outside of either taking over China, or taking over the countries that do business with them...you little conservative you.

But you oversimplify things...child labor or not, China is going to beat our prices, because the average person there has a much lower standard of living.

If you truly want to compete with them and force our companies to do likewise, then you must learn to accept a lower standard of living...

You know...try not to be so materialistic...most of what we think we need, we don't really need at all.

There are 3 basic needs human beings have...foodwater, shelter, and interaction with other human beings-sex(and the last 2 are situational)...and everything else is a luxury...


But it's got a be a choice...it cannot be enforced, that's when it becomes corrupt.


Ultimately...

This is the sort of thing best taken upon onself...ditto weath distribution...and it's in this way that we primarily fail and are more ignorant than a typical tribal society.

In a typical tribal society, selfish leaders that hoarde their wealth and don't care for the have nots, that don't redistribute...are not respected by their people. They lose face within the tribe. It's where the old expression about socities being judged by the quality of life of their poorest citizens comes from...




IOW, you want wealth distribution in this country...the people are the ones that need to the pressure on the wealthy to do it...not the government. All the government is going to do is get in the way. And take a cut...and the redistribution process is ed up.

And all these billionaires supporting Obama, that have no intention of re-distributing the majority of their wealth, I like to call them socialists, but claim they do intend to redistribute as they support him...

These guys gain face and respect among the poor, by going straight to them with the redistribution...

It is a citizen to citizen thing, done for respect and admiration...that's the way it works best...not the goverment doing it for you, for that is going to corrupt the process.

Furthermore if the government imposes it, forces wealth distribution, there is no good will built in the process, it is forced...and more importantly, it is the first stage of tyranny...

This is why your soclialism fails...because it cannot be forced and live up to the spirit of the concept.



IOW, it's always best to wipe your own ass base. And it's never evedr good to count on someone else to wipe it for you.


Someday when you're in a nursing home...you'll figure it out....you'll also learn that no one wipes the ass of someone else for the simple pleasure of doing so...if they are promising you an asswiping...almost certainly they want something substantial in return.


I'll wipe my own ass thank you very much...and on the day I no longer can, well I hope I get a bullet in my head. And frankly...I don't really want to shake hands for become friends with anyone promising me an asswiping, I damn sure don't trust them.

[Gino]

I suggest reading his book the Audacity of Hope. He describes his life experiences and his beliefs. Those beliefs and how he handled himself in the campaign were why I came to the conclusion he was a good man and a promising leader.

As far as Reverend Wright is concerned, the man shares his anger or at least empathizes with him. He would have to resign from the church anyway. But when he lost a political battle he stood up and told the American people what he thought in a very fatherly manner. If you wish to be cynical or think only in politics, he was able to sway Africans to believe he was black enough. I choose to see the former.

Read it last May. He doesn't describe his life experiences in it, that was the other one. Audacity of Hope is his view of what the country should be and he also points out many problems it currently has. Its a decent read.

Still dont think he's a leader. Still dont think he's going to bring any real change. His cabinent and stimulus bill are the status quo.

This man is no Colin Powell and its a shame that such a historic event was wasted on such a trendy pick.

[baseline bum]

Simple...you don't by products made in China. If no one buys them then it becomes an unlucrative practice for them. If you are taliking about world trade...well there's not much you can do about it outside of either taking over China, or taking over the countries that do business with them...you little conservative you.

But you oversimplify things...child labor or not, China is going to beat our prices, because the average person there has a much lower standard of living.

So your philosophy is to string everyone out to dry who cannot compete with large organized companies like Wal-Mart? Sort of like the way the consumer has been getting screwed on prescription drugs or how someone who can't afford insurance gets murdered on the bill at the hospital? Maybe California should have told Enron to off; who actually needs light, air conditioning, a working refrigerator, etc?

It is absolutely government's job to look out for its citizens well-being and to keep them from being exploited by those powerful enough to buy them up. Otherwise, why even have a government? Why have a national defense? Your philosophy seems to be we should have small militias fighting our wars. Not sure how they're going to afford F-22s or cruise missiles.

So anyway, is having a police force wealth distribution? Should I have to pay the fire department a few G to have them come and put out my house fire? I'll lay my own damn roads too.

If you truly want to compete with them and force our companies to do likewise, then you must learn to accept a lower standard of living...

You know...try not to be so materialistic...most of what we think we need, we don't really need at all.

Wanting jobs in America = being materialistic? Seeing that our nation will go down in flames if we allow our entire manufacturing sector to continue to disappear = materialism?

IOW, it's always best to wipe your own ass base. And it's never evedr good to count on someone else to wipe it for you.

Wanting something in return for the taxes I pay = ass-wiping? Brilliant. I know; a real American wouldn't be pissed that his tax dollars are used to wipe the asses of Wal-Mart, Lockheed-Martin, Enron, and Exxon.

[whottt]

Wanting something in return for the taxes I pay = ass-wiping? Brilliant. I know; a real American wouldn't be pissed that his tax dollars are used to wipe the asses of Wal-Mart, Lockheed-Martin, Enron, and Exxon.

I'll be back to destroy the rest of your post in a bit, short answer, yes, the govermments primary job is defense of the people from external military threats.

But I do want to touch on this last part...I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make there, but for now I'll just say I was dead set against just about every bailout, especially the banking ones. Those banking companies are slitting their own throats with their gouging and cannibalistic lending practices...I masturbate in ecastasy every time one of them goes under. Die die die...the solution is simple...get better banks.

We just enabled them to continue the same practices that are putting them, and us, under...by throwing that money at them, it was a horrible solution, and it didn't solve the problem. IF you think your 401k is safe now...you are deluding yourself.



Don't even get me started on the auto industry...we make ty cars, that are unaffordable...I don't care how much moneywe throw at them, it's not going to make them produce better cars, it's not going to make them more affordable...it's their time to survive or die...

You let me know next time you buy an American car base...I want to see those bailout dollars at work.

They need to build better cars...and they need to tell those unions they aren't worth the money they are costing and let them go. For plenty of Americans taking over those jobs would be a step up...and would probably go hand in hand with an increased commitment to turning out a better product.

[whottt]

Bottom like base...you want to the government to do it for you. Why not just make it your le?

[baseline bum]

I'll be back to destroy the rest of your post in a bit, short answer, yes, the govermments primary job is defense of the people from external military threats.

But I do want to touch on this last part...I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make there, but for now I'll just say I was dead set against just about every bailout, especially the banking ones. Those banking companies are slitting their own throats with their gouging and cannibalistic lending practices...I masturbate in ecastasy every time one of them goes under. Die die die...the solution is simple...get better banks.

We just enabled them to continue the same practices that are putting them, and us, under...by throwing that money at them, it was a horrible solution, and it didn't solve the problem. IF you think your 401k is safe now...you are deluding yourself.



Don't even get me started on the auto industry...we make ty cars, that are unaffordable...I don't care how much moneywe throw at them, it's not going to make them produce better cars, it's not going to make them more affordable...it's their time to survive or die...

You let me know next time you buy an American car base...I want to see those bailout dollars at work.

They need to build better cars...and they need to tell those unions they aren't worth the money they are costing and let them go. For plenty of Americans taking over those jobs would be a step up...and would probably go hand in hand with an increased commitment to turning out a better product.

China most-favored nation trade status = wiping Wal-Mart's ass
Iraq war = wiping Lockheed's ass
neutering government's ability to monitor speculation = wiping Enron's ass

[baseline bum]

Bottom like base...you want to the government to do it for you. Why not just make it your le?

Your philosophy has drastically weakened this country, and your solution is more of the same.

[whottt]

China most-favored nation trade status = wiping Wal-Mart's ass

And you think this is going to change under Obama? Jesus Christ, this guy serves more foreign interests than any President we have ever elected in history. That's my problem with him.

Iraq war = wiping Lockheed's ass

It doesn't matter once went in to Iraq...there are no do-overs. IT then becomes a situation of getting every possible positive out of the situation, regardless of why we went in.

Had you guys figured this out in 2004, Bush wouldn't have been re-elected.

neutering government's ability to monitor speculation = wiping Enron's ass

Yeah becuse Government monitoring is always done with utmost of integrity and honesty....because politicians are overwhelmingly honest and forthright people.

Fool.

[whottt]

Your philosophy has drastically weakened this country, and your solution is more of the same.

No...my philosophy is what this was country founded upon...it's also one based in reality. Governments are inherently corrupt, that is why you limit their power, because there is no such animal as an incorrupt government, and those that think there is, are either fools or liars.

You can talk about what the government should and would do till you're blue in the face...it's not going to make them suddenly become honest with human characteristics.

Furthermore...the government is supposed to be slave to the people, the more responsibility you give it, the bigger you make it, the more people become slaves to the government.

[baseline bum]

I'll be back to destroy the rest of your post in a bit, short answer, yes, the govermments primary job is defense of the people from external military threats.

Why is big government good in this one isolated case? To save American lives? Like the police, fire department, and health care?