Ludden: Bryant’s Defense Never Rests Against James

[DPG21920]

No. Because player A can be a bad match-up player B has a hard time defending, but player B can be just as bad a match-up for player A to defend, and player B can still outplay player A even if they don't guard one another. So, to the point of this discussion. Kobe might have a hard time guarding Tony Parker but still outplay him statistically and the Lakers win the game. While if a bad match-up between teams leads to one team beating the other, then the team that won is the better team.

Absolutely not the same thing.





Good question. More of a question for Phil Jackson to answer. I didn't argue that Kobe didn't want to guard either Tony or Manu for entire games. I gave reasons why he hasn't. That's not necessarily Kobe's decision, but rather Phil Jackson's. So, it's not to necessarily say Kobe doesn't want the challenge of guarding Parker or Manu, but rather a coaching decision. But, I can't say that either way with any certainty.




That's fine if some Spurs fans do it in response to jackass Laker fans. I never said it was a problem. I merely was amused by it.

I know you understand it. I enjoy having conversations with you. You bring a lot of good takes to the forum.

[JamStone]

I talk as if Kobe doesn't ever guard either because he doesn't. That Kobe on Manu we saw last game was one of the very rare times we've seen that matchup in the last seven years. And really, Manu blew his load by the beginning of the fourth so Kobe versus an exhausted Manu wasn't much of a battle.

Your second sentence contradicts your first. Saying it never happens and then it happening pretty much destroys your argument.

Name an elite perimeter defender and they've probably guarded Parker more than Kobe ever has. The few times Kobe guarded Parker, Parker got Kobe into immediate foul trouble and that was scratched from the playbook.

Tayshaun Prince wouldn't, couldn't, and hasn't guarded Tony Parker any more than Kobe. Now, I realize that calling Prince an elite defender is arguable, but he's still one of the better perimeter defenders. I doubt Raja Bell has guarded Tony Parker much more than Kobe has, and if he has it's not much more. In the past when the Suns really wanted to try to contain Parker better, they'd put Marion on Parker before Raja Bell. Last year, I believe they tried Grant Hill more than Bell. And, you said it right there, Parker is the type of player that is capable of drawing several quick fouls on his defender. That's a great reason to keep Kobe off of Parker for much of the game.

I can buy the excuse for Parker but why not Manu? If MJ or Pippen were around today, you could bet your bottom dollar that they'd both take turns at guarding Manu.

You already admitted Kobe has defended Ginobili. Ok, he hasn't defended him a lot or for large parts of games. But, I am willing to bet that Jordan wouldn't have spent much time on Ginobili either. Even in his prime, Jordan rarely spent large stretches of games defending a player like Reggie Miller just so he wouldn't exert all of his energy chasing him around. Ginobili is the type of player that makes you chase him all over the place. You've watched the Lakers and Spurs match up more than I have, so I'm not challenging your fact that Kobe didn't stop guarding Bowen to defend Manu in last year's playoffs. Seems to me it wasn't that necessary since the Lakers won in five games. Had that series extended to six and/or seven games, I would propose that Kobe would have been one of the main defenders on Ginobili later in the series and in crunch time. Just my personal opinion.

When those Bulls played the Spurs, MJ would always step up to the plate and guard the Spurs' hottest perimeter player. Elliott even a few times got loose on Pippen so MJ switched over to guard him.

All due respect to Sean E., but I don't put him in the same caliber as either Ginobili or Parker in terms of how difficult he was to defend. Same goes for any other former Spurs wing men in the late 80s to late 90s.

That was one game. Last year in the playoffs, Kobe stayed on Bowen or Udoka the whole time. I remember one half PJax switched it up and had Kobe guarding Finley ... but after a few Finley jumpers PJax switched Kobe back to Bowen.

Shrugs. Again, I don't know the entire rationale but again, if that series went to 6 or 7 games, I would be guessing Kobe would take on the challenge of guarding Manu if he got it going.

Link to where I call Duncan a great regular season defensive player? I call TD out all the time for his weak defensive efforts and for hiding out on scrubs. It's not like a praise TD out of one side of my mouth and question Kobe out of the other side of my mouth. I've never complained about TD not being DPOY (even though most say he should have earned one at some point) because hiding out and saving yourself for the offensive end doesn't make one an elite defender.

I don't have a link but nor did I say you said that. I did say that watching Pop and Duncan do the same thing with Duncan's defensive assignments would give you a good indication as to why Kobe is handled the same way defensively.

Furthermore, it's not like Kobe is a great help defender when he's guarding Bowen. For example, even a defensively challenged player like Dirk sometimes guards Bowen but when he's doing that he can cause havoc by doubling off. Kobe, on the other hand, rarely has been a defensive difference maker throughout the years even though he has the easiest matchup on either team. The only notable thing Kobe has done defensively is to have a first row seat as Bowen has racked up most of his career-best games against his D.

Well, that's cool, I guess. Then, Kobe has essentially been a poor defender from what you've seen when the Lakers have played the Spurs. If that's your claim, I won't argue it. You've watched all of those games and I haven't watched all of them, and the ones I have watched, I'm sure I haven't watched as intently as you. So, it is what it is. Kobe doesn't play great defense against the Spurs and can't guard Tony or Manu. From my experience watching Kobe, I've seen laxadazical defensive efforts by him as well. But, I've also seen him play great defense on great players. Again, it is what it is so I'll leave it at that.

Put that in context. There were two or three active threads in which Laker Fan was saying Kobe was as good or even a better closer than MJ. For Kobe to fail on the same day Laker Fan was proclaiming his superiority to MJ was indeed funny.

If you go back, I didn't say you couldn't or shouldn't blast back at Laker fans. Like DPG said, it can be a lot of fun. , you run this messageboard. Obviously, you can do whatever the you want to do. I'm just amused by you doing it because in general you're usually a level-headed poster who rarely (from my experience, but hey I don't read every single thread) lets trolls and poster stupidity incite such reactions. Here because of the Laker boobs, you have let it done so, at least a little bit. Hence, my amusement by it.

Where is the fake praise? Point it out.

Great player = fact

Great closer = fact

Kills the Spurs = fact

None of that praise is fake.

Fake praise in that whether or not you believe it, it's been obvious that you still take plenty of glee in blasting on Kobe every chance you get (recently).

Although it doesn't mean I like him. I happen to think that Kobe is a conceded, fake and contrived egomaniac who has a history of being a bad teammate, a bad judge of talent and always suc bs to his urgers - on and off the court. I don't know if you want me to apologize for not liking the guy but I've never hid my disdain for Kobe . . . which dates back even to when the Spurs were curbstomping the Lakers back in 1999.

Again, my initial comment was just that I was amused by the fact that you do have your own personal "urge" to blast on Kobe lately just to make fun of him, whether it's out of just personal venom for the guy or to just throw it back in the face of these asshole Laker fans on the board.

I know Laker Fan says I don't like him because he's killed the Spurs multiple times but that's simply not the root of my issues with him. I like Dirk and Dirk was more of a headache for the Spurs in 2006 than Kobe has ever been. I like Shaq and Shaq was the player who dominated the Spurs in 2001, 2002 and 2004. I just don't like Kobe.

Didn't say you should like the guy. It's pretty obvious you don't. But, as I mentioned in an earlier post, after a bad fourth quarter by Kobe, you made a post just to laugh at him as a "closer." As if Michael Jordan never had a poor fourth quarter in his NBA career... in a middle of the season regular season game, no less. That's the kind of thing that just stinks of disdain.

Well, I guess we agree on that point.

I'd be perfectly fine not liking Kobe and keeping the Kobe posts to a minimum but in case you haven't noticed this forum has turned into Kobe Central for the last few weeks. I can't sit by and see Kobe get praise such as he's better than MJ, he's more skilled than MJ, he's a better closer than MJ ever was, he has worse teammates than LeBron, he has always had worse teammates than LeBron, he was better and more important than Shaq during the three-peat and whatever else Laker Fan and Kobe Fan had been spewing as of late. Chiming in to try to clarify the actual historical standing of Kobe doesn't mean I'm venomous towards him ... even if I do add some Kobe jokes along the way to see Laker Fan and Kobe Fan squirm.

If that's your reasoning for the Kobe hate posts, I'm perfectly cool with it. I see nothing wrong with it. From you, it's still a bit surprising. And, moreover, as with my very initial comment about it, it's amusing to me seeing it come from you. That's all.

[DrHouse]

I'm sitting here laughing my ass off at you guys trying to understand Spur fan's hatred of Kobe Bryant.

Ockham's Razor - The simplest explanation is usually correct.

Kobe Bryant and Phil Jackson have been responsible for crushing the Spur's championship hopes 4 times in this decade alone. They are really the only team that has consistently been able to kick them down a notch. They are like what the Celtics are to the Lakers.

This is the only real reason Spur fan hates Kobe. They hate him because he is a Spur killer and he has ruined their hopes and dreams time and time again. All this other BS about him being a bad guy, teammates, etc. is just that.....BS. If they held every player to the standards they hold Kobe to they wouldn't like anyone in the NBA.

[Medvedenko]

Do you think Kobe is better than MJ?

Yes I think Kobe is a better player than MJ. Also, as I have mentioned in previous posts throughout the years, it has nothing to do based on team accomplishments and accolades. All things being equal is just that...it can't be equal given their different era's. However I will stand by my assertion that Kobe is a better player than MJ from what I have witnessed.

[1Parker1]

Yes I think Kobe is a better player than MJ. Also, as I have mentioned in previous posts throughout the years, it has nothing to do based on team accomplishments and accolades. All things being equal is just that...it can't be equal given their different era's. However I will stand by my assertion that Kobe is a better player than MJ from what I have witnessed.

WHAT????

How can you honestly sit here and assert that you believe Kobe is a better player than MJ. What exactly have you witnessed? Aside from the fact that you want to disregard all of MJ's accomplishments and accolades, what about career stats? What about what MJ did, by HIMSELF, in the Finals 6 times? Yes, he had Pippen, but he was a complimentary player. If Kobe can go ahead and win 6 les as the main guy on a championship team, then you can even begin to make the comparison.

[Medvedenko]

WHAT????

How can you honestly sit here and assert that you believe Kobe is a better player than MJ. What exactly have you witnessed? Aside from the fact that you want to disregard all of MJ's accomplishments and accolades, what about career stats? What about what MJ did, by HIMSELF, in the Finals 6 times? Yes, he had Pippen, but he was a complimentary player. If Kobe can go ahead and win 6 les as the main guy on a championship team, then you can even begin to make the comparison.

I believe my arguement is sound proof. Cir stances don't make a player in my eyes, sorry if that bothers you. I'm looking at b-ball talent alone. I also respect your opinion and based on your assessements Jordan is the better player.

[1Parker1]

That's fine, but you're not answering the question. If you're looking at "B-Ball talent alone" then exactly what are you seeing that is making Kobe the better player? MJ shot a much better FG% over the course of his career, he was a much better defender...consistently night in and night out in his career, he hit a LOT more clutch shots and won his team more games alone in the playoffs than Kobe has as the "main guy." You think an MJ led team would have lost by 40+ points in a NBA Finals Game 6?

[Ghazi]

God that is some stupid stuff Medvedenko. Cir stances and accolades disregarded MJ still was a far better player than Kobe is.

[Medvedenko]

That's fine, but you're not answering the question. If you're looking at "B-Ball talent alone" then exactly what are you seeing that is making Kobe the better player? MJ shot a much better FG% over the course of his career, he was a much better defender...consistently night in and night out in his career, he hit a LOT more clutch shots and won his team more games alone in the playoffs than Kobe has as the "main guy." You think an MJ led team would have lost by 40+ points in a NBA Finals Game 6?

That's a lot of conjecture and it comes down to the era of play. You don't think Kobe would have not had a better FG% if it wasn't for zone defenses and don't mention the hand check BS. The scoring of the 80's and early 90's were a lot higher than they are now. I believe Kobe is a better shooter/scorer than MJ. Defensive is very subjective and it comes down to assignments and team play. You bring up the last playoff game Kobe had, what about the ones where he hit the game winning shots or led his team from the brink to win the game. Don't cherry pick and I won't either. Given from what I hear, you'd think Jordan would never lose a game or at least score more than 81 or outscore a team himself after 3 q's (which has never happened until Kobe did it to Dallas). Look you believe MJ is better than let it be. I can totally see your arguement and I'm sure many feel it's the correct one. I just see it differently.

[DPG21920]

That's a lot of conjecture and it comes down to the era of play. You don't think Kobe would have not had a better FG% if it wasn't for zone defenses and don't mention the hand check BS. The scoring of the 80's and early 90's were a lot higher than they are now. I believe Kobe is a better shooter/scorer than MJ. Defensive is very subjective and it comes down to assignments and team play. You bring up the last playoff game Kobe had, what about the ones where he hit the game winning shots or led his team from the brink to win the game. Don't cherry pick and I won't either. Given from what I hear, you'd think Jordan would never lose a game or at least score more than 81 or outscore a team himself after 3 q's (which has never happened until Kobe did it to Dallas). Look you believe MJ is better than let it be. I can totally see your arguement and I'm sure many feel it's the correct one. I just see it differently.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

It's interesting that you've turned into a Kobe hater over the years. Just enjoy a legend when you see him. You'll be telling your grandchildren that you saw Kobe play in person.

stories like the one where he did the "big balls" gesture and still lost the game would be a good start. it'd also be a good way to transition into the concept of sex, which they might not know about at that point. you can then transition into how sex is a sacred act be/w two people, otherwise you might have a big problem like the one Kobe had. then rape etc.

You can use kobe as a way to broach all kinds of topics.

[RsxPiimp]

I believe my arguement is sound proof. Cir stances don't make a player in my eyes, sorry if that bothers you. I'm looking at b-ball talent alone. I also respect your opinion and based on your assessements Jordan is the better player.

so basically you dont like reality

[JoeTait75]

Medvedenko: Watch Games 1 & 2 of the 1986 EC first round. Bulls @ Celtics. MJ going against a better team than Kobe has ever gone up against, matched up with an all-time great perimeter defender in Dennis Johnson, in an impossible road venue, with a supporting cast 10x worse than Kobe has ever been stuck with. Both games are available for viewing on Youtube. Watch them, then come back and explain how Kobe is better than Michael Jordan.

[DrHouse]

Better than MJ.....dunno about that one. In terms of pure talent and skill they are awfully close, but MJ has the mental and defensive edge IMHO.

I still believe Kobe is a more skilled offensive player than MJ. He has better range and a more expanded arsenal IMHO. But in terms of the mental intangibles and defense MJ has him beat. MJ learned over the course of his career how to make the smart and safe play.....Kobe still goes for the impossible shot just because he can make it. I want to see Kobe make the transition that MJ did when he was about 30 into a smarter and more selective player.

[JamStone]

Kobe does have a slightly better jump shot than Michael did, slightly better range. And, I think Kobe has better handles than Michael Jordan had.

Everything else, every other aspect of the game, Michael was superior than Kobe. Plus, Michael had superior athleticism and larger hands.

I don't think there is a sound argument for Kobe being a better player, even if you disregard team accomplishments and individual accolades.