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  1. #1
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    After watching the Bush administration blunder for years, and finally start hitting their stride in their last few years on sensible foreign policy (yes, I think the Bush administration did a few things right), I noted this bit from the new treasury secretary, and my thoughts about his comments are echoed here, and put into words. I pretty much agree with the author here. Bashing China at this point is counter-productive, if not outright unnecessarily dangerous on a few levels.

    Despite the ramblings of the conservative blathersphere, this is the first real boo-boo/gaffe of the administration.

    http://www.economist.com/finance/dis...most_commented


    China and America

    War of words
    Jan 24th 2009 | WASHINGTON, DC
    From Economist.com

    Economic tensions between America and China are rising—at exactly the wrong time

    AP
    TECHNICALLY, he is not yet treasury secretary, but Tim Geithner has already made waves in financial markets. In a written response to questions from senators debating his confirmation, Mr Geithner accused China of “manipulating” its currency and promised that the Obama team would push “aggressively” for Beijing to change its policies. The sharp tone and use of the legally-loaded term “currency manipulation” ricocheted through financial markets as investors shuddered at the prospect of a Sino-American spat in the midst of a global slump.

    Clearly this was not a slip of the tongue. Conceivably it was a bureaucratic snafu. The tough language came in a 102-page do ent answering numerous questions from senators—an odd place from which to lob a bombs at Beijing. If so, it speaks poorly of a man who is already in trouble for failing to pay attention to his taxes. Most likely, therefore, Mr Geithner’s language suggests a change in Washington’s tactics towards China.

    American policymakers have long pushed Beijing to accelerate the appreciation of the yuan, arguing that China’s exchange-rate policy played a big role in creating the global imbalances and that—both for the sake of China’s economy and the rest of the world—the currency needs to strengthen. But Hank Paulson’s Treasury studiously avoided accusing Beijing of “currency manipulation”, a term that carries legal implications.

    Every six months America’s Treasury must publish a list of countries which it deems to be currency manipulators. Once a country appears on that list, formal negotiations to end the manipulation must begin. The Treasury under George Bush, particularly in recent years, preferred a softer behind-the-scenes approach and refused to brand China a manipulator. Although Mr Geithner did not commit himself to any specific action, the use of the m-word suggests Team Obama will take a tougher line.

    Exactly what it means is uncertain. It is not even clear who will manage America’s economic strategy with China (there is some speculation, for instance, that Hillary Clinton wants the State Department to take the lead). But there is no doubt that Barack Obama’s economic team includes a number of people who are frustrated with the world’s failure to convince Beijing to strengthen the yuan. Mr Obama himself supported legislation in the Senate to get tougher on China. More important, his advisers see tough words now as a prophylactic—a warning that Beijing must not be tempted to prop up its staggering economy by weakening the yuan.

    Domestic politics is also playing a big role. China’s bilateral trade surplus with America has long been a lightning rod in Congress, and with unemployment up the protectionist pressure is sure to rise. The $800 billion stimulus package making its way through Congress already has dubious “Buy American” measures that demand government spending should be on American goods. By sounding tough up front, the logic goes, the Obama team will be better able to diffuse the more extreme protectionist sentiment.

    Unfortunately, this strategy is dangerous on a number of counts. The basic economic analysis—that a stronger yuan, on a trade-weighted basis, is necessary to rebalance China’s economy away from exports—is surely right. But the world’s immediate problem is a dramatic shortfall in demand across the globe and that will not be righted by exchange-rate shifts. Currency movements switch demand between countries; they do not create it. In the short-term, therefore, the outlook for the world economy depends on whether governments’ stimulus packages are successful and, right now, team Obama would do better to focus on the scale, nature and speed of Beijing’s stimulus measures than rant about the currency. What’s more, the evidence for currency manipulation is weakening. Although China still runs a huge current-account surplus, it is no longer ac ulating foreign-exchange reserves at a rapid clip, as capital is flowing out of the country.

    More important, the political calculus could easily misfire. Domestically, Mr Geithner’s comments may simply fan congressional flames for tougher action on China. Lindsey Graham, a senator who first pushed for a 27.5% tariff against China in 2005, called the comments “music to my ears”. And Sino-American economic tensions are already rising as Chinese officials hotly dispute the idea that their savings surplus had anything to do with the current global mess. (An official at China’s central bank recently called the idea “ridiculous” and an example of “gangster logic”). Traditionally, Chinese officials do not respond well to public admonition and, given the scale of China’s economic woes, they are likely to be pricklier now.

    The stakes are extremely high. Everyone knows that protectionism and beggar-thy-neighbour policies exacerbated the Depression. With the global economy in its most dangerous cir stances since the 1930s, rising Sino-American tensions is the last thing anyone needs.

  2. #2
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Was this before or after Russia and China's harshly worded statements at Davos? For some reason I think before.

    I remember reading Geithner's remark about manipulation in the last couple of days, but the significance of the precise wording did not strike me then.

    It may have been a mistake, but perhaps Sec'y. Geithner intended to take an aggressive and forthright tone to begin the negotiations with China. It is hard to imagine he did so without Mr. Obama's knowledge and consent, but Sec'y Geithner is after all, a former Fed president. He might of flown solo. Who knows how policy gets set?

    The market reacts: http://forexdaily.org.ru/Dow_Jones/page.htm?id=424277

    Also, did you catch Putin's snub of Michael Dell, RG?
    Last edited by Winehole23; 02-02-2009 at 03:58 PM.

  3. #3
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    After watching the Bush administration blunder for years, and finally start hitting their stride in their last few years on sensible foreign policy (yes, I think the Bush administration did a few things right), I noted this bit from the new treasury secretary, and my thoughts about his comments are echoed here, and put into words. I pretty much agree with the author here. Bashing China at this point is counter-productive, if not outright unnecessarily dangerous on a few levels.

    Despite the ramblings of the conservative blathersphere, this is the first real boo-boo/gaffe of the administration.

    http://www.economist.com/finance/dis...most_commented


    China and America

    War of words
    Jan 24th 2009 | WASHINGTON, DC
    From Economist.com

    Economic tensions between America and China are rising—at exactly the wrong time

    AP
    TECHNICALLY, he is not yet treasury secretary, but Tim Geithner has already made waves in financial markets. In a written response to questions from senators debating his confirmation, Mr Geithner accused China of “manipulating” its currency and promised that the Obama team would push “aggressively” for Beijing to change its policies. The sharp tone and use of the legally-loaded term “currency manipulation” ricocheted through financial markets as investors shuddered at the prospect of a Sino-American spat in the midst of a global slump.

    Clearly this was not a slip of the tongue. Conceivably it was a bureaucratic snafu. The tough language came in a 102-page do ent answering numerous questions from senators—an odd place from which to lob a bombs at Beijing. If so, it speaks poorly of a man who is already in trouble for failing to pay attention to his taxes. Most likely, therefore, Mr Geithner’s language suggests a change in Washington’s tactics towards China.

    American policymakers have long pushed Beijing to accelerate the appreciation of the yuan, arguing that China’s exchange-rate policy played a big role in creating the global imbalances and that—both for the sake of China’s economy and the rest of the world—the currency needs to strengthen. But Hank Paulson’s Treasury studiously avoided accusing Beijing of “currency manipulation”, a term that carries legal implications.

    Every six months America’s Treasury must publish a list of countries which it deems to be currency manipulators. Once a country appears on that list, formal negotiations to end the manipulation must begin. The Treasury under George Bush, particularly in recent years, preferred a softer behind-the-scenes approach and refused to brand China a manipulator. Although Mr Geithner did not commit himself to any specific action, the use of the m-word suggests Team Obama will take a tougher line.

    Exactly what it means is uncertain. It is not even clear who will manage America’s economic strategy with China (there is some speculation, for instance, that Hillary Clinton wants the State Department to take the lead). But there is no doubt that Barack Obama’s economic team includes a number of people who are frustrated with the world’s failure to convince Beijing to strengthen the yuan. Mr Obama himself supported legislation in the Senate to get tougher on China. More important, his advisers see tough words now as a prophylactic—a warning that Beijing must not be tempted to prop up its staggering economy by weakening the yuan.

    Domestic politics is also playing a big role. China’s bilateral trade surplus with America has long been a lightning rod in Congress, and with unemployment up the protectionist pressure is sure to rise. The $800 billion stimulus package making its way through Congress already has dubious “Buy American” measures that demand government spending should be on American goods. By sounding tough up front, the logic goes, the Obama team will be better able to diffuse the more extreme protectionist sentiment.

    Unfortunately, this strategy is dangerous on a number of counts. The basic economic analysis—that a stronger yuan, on a trade-weighted basis, is necessary to rebalance China’s economy away from exports—is surely right. But the world’s immediate problem is a dramatic shortfall in demand across the globe and that will not be righted by exchange-rate shifts. Currency movements switch demand between countries; they do not create it. In the short-term, therefore, the outlook for the world economy depends on whether governments’ stimulus packages are successful and, right now, team Obama would do better to focus on the scale, nature and speed of Beijing’s stimulus measures than rant about the currency. What’s more, the evidence for currency manipulation is weakening. Although China still runs a huge current-account surplus, it is no longer ac ulating foreign-exchange reserves at a rapid clip, as capital is flowing out of the country.

    More important, the political calculus could easily misfire. Domestically, Mr Geithner’s comments may simply fan congressional flames for tougher action on China. Lindsey Graham, a senator who first pushed for a 27.5% tariff against China in 2005, called the comments “music to my ears”. And Sino-American economic tensions are already rising as Chinese officials hotly dispute the idea that their savings surplus had anything to do with the current global mess. (An official at China’s central bank recently called the idea “ridiculous” and an example of “gangster logic”). Traditionally, Chinese officials do not respond well to public admonition and, given the scale of China’s economic woes, they are likely to be pricklier now.

    The stakes are extremely high. Everyone knows that protectionism and beggar-thy-neighbour policies exacerbated the Depression. With the global economy in its most dangerous cir stances since the 1930s, rising Sino-American tensions is the last thing anyone needs.
    so his first gaffe waqsn't hiring lobbysists ? nominating a guy who didn't pay his taxes for 4 years to run the IRS ? - Tom Daschle ?

    wierd how all these democrats who are BIG _ HUGE on taxes ... don't pay their taxes.... do as I say I reckon.....

  4. #4
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Are you just going to post the same in every thread, neoconbot?

  5. #5
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    so his first gaffe waqsn't hiring lobbysists ? nominating a guy who didn't pay his taxes for 4 years to run the IRS ? - Tom Daschle ?

    wierd how all these democrats who are BIG _ HUGE on taxes ... don't pay their taxes.... do as I say I reckon.....
    Better lodged elsewhere. There's a thread on this topic already:

    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115863

  6. #6
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    Are you just going to post the same in every thread, neoconbot?
    you are too stupid to know what a "neocon" is... which I am not, Dung.

  7. #7
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    You were when it was popular. What changed?

  8. #8
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    You were when it was popular. What changed?
    No, Dung -- No I never claimed to be a "neocon" == perhaps you should better understand the origin of the word. Nor did I claim to be a repug. I am a conservative - as in Cons utionalist.

  9. #9
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Cons utionalism is back in style among self-described conservatives. That didn't take very long.

  10. #10
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    No, Dung -- No I never claimed to be a "neocon" == perhaps you should better understand the origin of the word. Nor did I claim to be a repug. I am a conservative - as in Cons utionalist.


    You mean that do ent you never bothered to read and didn't say boo when Bush chose to ignore it?



    It's astounding how much suck you bring to the forum.

  11. #11
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    You mean that do ent you never bothered to read and didn't say boo when Bush chose to ignore it?



    It's astounding how much suck you bring to the forum.
    it is equally astounding how much suck you bring to life.

    I carry the cons ution in my pocket.

  12. #12
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    wierd how all these democrats who are BIG _ HUGE on taxes ... don't pay their taxes.... do as I say I reckon.....
    One != All

    With that same broken logic, one could conclude all Republicans are sexual and enjoy sexual escapades in men's bathrooms.

  13. #13
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I carry the cons ution in my pocket.

  14. #14
    Basketball Expertise spurster's Avatar
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    Nominating people who haven't paid their taxes is not a good start. It's not exactly a confidence builder.

    Criticizing China is a way of looking like you are tough without doing anything about it. I've no idea how it plays in China. Maybe they would have more respect for a US that doesn't bend over on every economic issue.

  15. #15
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    One != All

    With that same broken logic, one could conclude all Republicans are sexual and enjoy sexual escapades in men's bathrooms.
    and make inappropriate drunken text messages to underage male pages...


  16. #16
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Nominating people who haven't paid their taxes is not a good start. It's not exactly a confidence builder.
    The Obama transition team may be getting tired. They didn't catch this?

  17. #17
    THANK YOU BASED NEAL ClingingMars's Avatar
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    The Obama transition team may be getting tired. They didn't catch this?
    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17463.html

  18. #18
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    Why play this game? Chump is a left-wing nuthugger and feels good calling all conservs, neocons.

    Obama cannot screw up to these types of people.

  19. #19
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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  20. #20
    THANK YOU BASED NEAL ClingingMars's Avatar
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    That's why I asked, guy.
    confirming what he said, and thought it was sarcasm on your part.

  21. #21
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Why play this game? Chump is a left-wing nuthugger and feels good calling all conservs, neocons.

    Obama cannot screw up to these types of people.
    Sure Obama can screw up. He already has.

    I'm not sure if this is a misstep though. Depends on what happens next.

  22. #22
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Criticizing China is a way of looking like you are tough without doing anything about it. I've no idea how it plays in China. Maybe they would have more respect for a US that doesn't bend over on every economic issue.
    Maybe. Is it worth a try?

  23. #23
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Nominating people who haven't paid their taxes is not a good start. It's not exactly a confidence builder.
    In a previous political universe it would have been a fatal handicap.

  24. #24
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    Cons utionalism is back in style among self-described conservatives.
    That's why I started the "What are you" thread. I was wanting to see what the neocons described themselves as since nobody ever admits to being a neocon. I guess cons utionalist is the new neocon.

  25. #25
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    That's why I started the "What are you" thread. I was wanting to see what the neocons described themselves as since nobody ever admits to being a neocon. I guess cons utionalist is the new neocon.
    Some of them might be the old cons utionalists. Not very many though.

    The numbers of le resistance swelled in the post war period.

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