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Been there, debunked it. this is like killing roaches.
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...=65131&page=59
Above your head.
Been there, debunked it. this is like killing roaches.
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...=65131&page=59
Except that he said "THEY" made the decision. Not "I made the decision" to pull it.
Let's look at everything the man said.
Before we continue examining conspiracist misrepresentations about WTC 7, it's important that we understand what the official version of events is. Here's a summary, from the NIST report.
Essential Reading: NIST NCSTAR 1-8 Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster: The Emergency Response Operations. (PDF)
Excerpt: Summary of World Trade Center Building 7 Emergency Response.
• The building had sustained damage from debris falling into the building, and they were not sure about the structural stability of the building.
• The building had large fires burning on at least six floors [fires were visible on at least 16 floors]. Any one of these six fires would have been considered a large incident during normal FDNY operations.
• There was no water immediately available for fighting the fires.
• They didn’t have equipment, hose, standpipe kits, tools, and enough handie talkies for conducting operations inside the building.
At approximately, 2:30 p.m., FDNY officers decided to completely abandon WTC 7, and the final order was given to evacuate the site around the building. The order terminated the ongoing rescue operations at WTC 6 and on the rubble pile of WTC 1. Firefighters and other emergency responders were withdrawn from the WTC 7 area, and the building continued to burn. At approximately 5:20 p.m., some three hours after WTC 7 was abandoned the building experienced a catastrophic failure and collapsed.
Here’s a much-reprinted quote from FDNY Chief of Operations Daniel Nigro:
"The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC 7] building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt."[Fire Engineering magazine, 10/2002]
In another interview, Chief Nigro said,
"The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was [that] the collapse [Of the WTC towers] had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, 7 World Trade Center collapsed completely."http://tinyurl.com/g8c6y
In 2007, "Ref" of the JREF forum and 9/11 Guide contacted Chief Nigro for clarification of some points. Here's the reply he received:
Regarding WTC 7: The long-awaited US Government NIST (National Ins ute of Standards and Technology) report on the collapse of WTC 7 is due to be published at the end of this year (although it has been delayed already a few times [ adding fuel to the conspiracy theorists fires!]). That report should explain the cause and mechanics of the collapse in great detail. Early on the afternoon of September 11th 2001, following the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, I feared a collapse of WTC 7 (as did many on my staff). The reasons are as follows:
1 - Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.
2. The collapse of WTC 1 damaged portions of the lower floors of WTC 7.
3. WTC 7, we knew, was built on a small number of large columns providing an open Atrium on the lower levels.
4. numerous fires on many floors of WTC 7 burned without sufficient water supply to attack them.
For these reasons I made the decision (without consulting the owner, the mayor or anyone else - as ranking fire officer, that decision was my responsibility) to clear a collapse zone surrounding the building and to stop all activity within that zone. Approximately three hours after that order was given, WTC 7 collapsed.
Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit.
Regards, Dan Nigro
Chief of Department FDNY (retired) Source
That’s certainly straightforward. Building 7 was severely damaged and had severe, uncontrollable fires, and the FDNY withdrew its firefighters to protect their safety.
At the beginning of this paper I introduced the group NY911truth, which some friends and I confront on Saturdays at Ground Zero. In my first appearance there, in June or July, 2006, the first thing the group’s leader Les Jamieson said to me was, “We should have a debate.” I’m sure he didn’t know then that I knew far more of the facts of 9/11 than he, although I had only been looking into the CT claims for three months and he had been doing so since November, 2001. We did have an impromptu mini-debate before the video camera of do entarian Fletcher Holmes. The subject was the collapse of WTC 7, which Jamieson believes is one of the best pieces of evidence in favor of the “inside job” theory.
I reminded Jamieson that the firefighters reported massive damage and raging, uncontrolled fires, and that the Chiefs, specifically Chief Nigro, gave the order to withdraw the firefighters from the area long before the building collapsed. He replied that perhaps they had been ordered to withdraw by someone higher up, such as Nicholas Scoppetta, the FDNY Commissioner, who presumably got his orders from someone who was in on the plot.
That made me very angry. It was the first time I had heard someone blame the FDNY for the collapse of WTC 7. Since then, I’ve heard at least three other members of Jamieson’s organization make the same claim while standing on the ground where so many heroes died.
Let’s keep in mind what it would mean (only as far as the FDNY’s involvement is concerned) if
Jamieson was correct:
1. The top people in the FDNY were so corrupt that they called off a search for hundreds of fallen firefighters in order to participate in a crime.
2. The FDNY Chiefs who claim to have made an agonizing decision to stop rescue operations in the area around WTC 7, in order to to keep rescuers from becoming victims, are lying.
3. All the people on the scene who reported massive damage and uncontrolled fires on many floors at building 7, and who said they were sure that the building would collapse (we’ll read their reports later), were coerced into inventing those stories in order to cover up the crime of deliberate demolition of a skyscraper.
4. The massive amount of smoke seen billowing from nearly every floor on WTC 7’s south side did not indicate massive fires.
5. None of the 16,000 uniformed or civilian members of the FDNY, or anyone else who was involved in this huge conspiracy, has come forward about these issues in the past 5 years.
Les Jamieson, leader of NY 911 Truth
Jamieson has appeared twice on the NYC-area television show Hardfire, where his arguments were eviscerated by host Ron Wieck. Watch it here part 1 and here part 2.
Firefighters’ Statements: “Of Course They’re Lies!”
Following is a transcription of an audio recording I made at Ground Zero on September 16, 2006. Bold type indicates shouting. The participants are me, Les Jamieson, and a particularly volatile and ignorant member of his organization named Jack, who is a regular on Saturdays.
Jack, member of NY 911 Truth
A substantial crowd had gathered. First, I read the Daniel Nigro quote above to Mr. Jamieson. Here it is again. It bears repeating:
“The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt.”
Me, to Jamieson: Chief of Operations, right here, who gave the order to start clearing this area three hours beforehand. And you’re saying that Larry Silverstein gave that order? Why?
I pull out a sheaf of quotes from FDNY eyewitnesses that detail the fire, damage, and suspected collapse of building 7.
Me: I’ve got page after page corroborating that. Page after page corroborating the damage, page after page corroborating that he gave the order, page after page saying that they did pull the men out starting at about 3 o’clock. But you blame Larry Silverstein. Why?
Jack, interrupting: BECAUSE HE SAID “PULL THE BUILDING!”
Me: Oh, did he?
JACK: PULL is the operative word! You say “they” was the operative word? IT WAS PULL. P-U-L-L!
I hand him the printout of Silverstein’s statement.
Me: Here, read this to the people. Are you afraid to? Let’s see if you get it right. On 9/11, I gave this quote to four different people of your persuasion, and every single one of them said, when they were reading it, said “He” decided to pull. Now you read it. See what it says.
JACK: We went through this before. This is a reprise of a previous episode. [True: from about an hour earlier!] He asked me to read this paragraph. I’ll read the paragraph, and let’s see if it’s going to register as funny, okay? I read the whole paragraph, and he says to me “read the last sentence.” I say, Okay, ‘And they made that decision to pull.’
Me: And who was “they?”
JACK: No, wait a minute! Here’s the punch line. I say to him, “What’s the operative word here?” He says to me “They.” NO. IT’S PULL. P-U-L-L!
Me: Okay, I’ve got 15 different quotes here where fire department– (JACK starts to walk away) You gonna stand here and listen? –Where Fire Department people use the word “pull,” meaning pull their people out.
JACK: You don’t even understand English grammar! He said “IT!” “IT!”
Me: Yeah, the operations. The firefighting operations. I don’t understand English grammar?
Jamieson: People were pulled out at 11:30, weren’t they?
Me: No, sir, they weren’t. As you know – because I’m sure you’ve read the quotes – it started at about 2:30, the pullout. Before that they were trying to rescue their people who were under the rubble here.
Jamieson: I have 11:30. So even if it’s 2:30, why are they saying to pull it at 5:20?
Me: When did the conversation with Silverstein happen? Hours beforehand.
Jamieson: No.
Me: Yes, sir. You’re saying that Chief Daniel Nigro is lying? You’re saying the Fire Department is lying?
Jamieson: Silverstein is lying, maybe. Could that be?
Me: About what? His story corroborates perfectly with what the Fire Department says.
Jamieson: ‘Cause he says “We agreed to pull the building, then we watched it collapse.”
Reminder: Les Jamieson is the leader of one of the major 9/11 “Truth” organizations, and he claims to have been investigating these matters since 2001. Also, Jamieson was listening attentively 30 seconds earlier when Jack read “And they made that decision to pull.”
Me: No, sir. He says “They made that decision to pull.” Who’s “they?” He’s on the phone with the Fire Department.
Jamieson: Right.
Me: So you’re saying the Fire Department’s lying, when they’re saying that they made the decision?
Jamieson: How does the Fire Department have the ability to pull?
Me: To pull? To pull their men out. (I shake my sheaf of quotes) Fifteen different times they use the quote “pull,” meaning pull their men away from the building–
JACK:NO! THEY SAID PULL IT!
Me: –and thank God they did, because no one was killed when building 7 collapsed.
JACK: PULL IT!
Me: Was that a good decision or not?
Unidentified Truther:PULL IT!
Me: And they did that three hours before the building collapsed.
Jamieson: What about–
Me: I’m asking you a question. Is the Fire Department lying? You’re saying Larry Silverstein gave the order. I have page after page of quotes. Are they lying?
JACK: This is total obfuscation! Total obfuscation! What difference does it make if the time is plus or minus two hours? He said “PULL THE BUILDING! PULL THE BUILDING!”
Jamieson:PULL THE BUILDING! And it fell straight down! Not south!
JACK:PULL IT! I-T!
Me (reading from FDNY quotes): Fire Department Chief Daniel Nigro: “The biggest decision we had to make–“
JACK, to the crowd:HE’S OBFUSCATING! WITH TOTAL BULL !
Me:“–was to create a collapse zone around the severely damaged building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt.”
How about this: “There had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hose line operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too.”
And this: “The building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see. So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandeis came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped.”
Here’s another: “They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. ... Finally they pulled us out.”
Here’s another: “Seven World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling, fully involved.“
Here’s another: “There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered through there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably a third of it, right in the middle of it.”
JACK: HAHAHA!
Me: Yeah, it’s a lie? These are all lies the Fire Department is telling? I’m recording this, by the way.
JACK: OF COURSE THEY’RE LIES! TOTAL FABRICATIONS! TOTAL FABRICATIONS!
Jack walks away, shaking his head. Jamieson makes no objection to his statements.
Please let Les Jamieson know what you think about what he and his organization’s members say at Ground Zero. His 9/11-related email address is [email protected]
"Pull it" is really truther code words for "I am masturbating to a video of Alex Jones ranting about 9-11".
That's why this bull comes up so often. HA!
The sad part is, after all the Red Bull induced copy and paste marathon RandomLie produces, we are no closer to finding out the truth.
Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.Circular logic! Gotta love it!
more like circular stupidity. Why is it the anti 9/11 for truth people and the Atheist are so gullible?
Funny you asked, I've been wondering the same thing myself...They are like a sick cult...they know that the Bush administration has completely ass-raped them continuously about the truth about, well,....anything, yet they keep coming back for more....
...they put their trust in a committee whose Co-Chairmen where hand-picked by the very administration that they were supposed to investigate...
....then the report comes out and that committee doesn't even mention WTC7....like it never happened...
....and don't even get me started about how they think Dubya, Cheney, and 9ui11iani acted exemplary, even heroically on 9/11...even though Dubya stayed in a Elementary school full of children less than a few miles from a Florida airport that for all they knew, could have had a hijacked airplane heading straight for it.....Cheney was in his secret command bunker, commanding......well,..... nothing, and 9ui11iani was with his mistress having an affair...
^ this vato gets it!
Astonishing that this didn't get commented on.
Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.
It's actually not circular logic, Dan, but it doesn't quite surprise me that you didn't catch that.
Here is an example of actual circular logic.
No high-rise building has ever collapsed from a fire.
If a high-rise building collapses, it must NOT be from a fire.
The second step follows from the first, and is a condition precedent for the first one.
It follows the same form as:
No human being has ever achieved heavier than air flight.
If a human being acheives flight, it must not be heavier than air flight. (i.e a hot-air balloon).
The above logic string falls apart if one can prove that even one person has managed heavier than air flight in, say, an airplane.
Now, where you fail is that you can't really logically compare ANY previous fire to what happened to WTC 1 and 2, because of the damage from the plane impacts, and those make it different from ANY other fire.
Because you have been so thoroughly spanked in trying to prove explosives or thermite in WTC 1 or 2 you fall back to WTC7 and jump up and down for every Alex Jones pronouncements about this like hysterical school girls at a High School Musical show.
Are you accusing Nigro of lying?
Here’s a much-reprinted quote from FDNY Chief of Operations Daniel Nigro:
"The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC 7] building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt."[Fire Engineering magazine, 10/2002]
In another interview, Chief Nigro said,
"The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was [that] the collapse [Of the WTC towers] had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, 7 World Trade Center collapsed completely."http://tinyurl.com/g8c6y
In 2007, "Ref" of the JREF forum and 9/11 Guide contacted Chief Nigro for clarification of some points. Here's the reply he received:
Regarding WTC 7: The long-awaited US Government NIST (National Ins ute of Standards and Technology) report on the collapse of WTC 7 is due to be published at the end of this year (although it has been delayed already a few times [ adding fuel to the conspiracy theorists fires!]). That report should explain the cause and mechanics of the collapse in great detail. Early on the afternoon of September 11th 2001, following the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, I feared a collapse of WTC 7 (as did many on my staff). The reasons are as follows:
1 - Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.
2. The collapse of WTC 1 damaged portions of the lower floors of WTC 7.
3. WTC 7, we knew, was built on a small number of large columns providing an open Atrium on the lower levels.
4. numerous fires on many floors of WTC 7 burned without sufficient water supply to attack them.
For these reasons I made the decision (without consulting the owner, the mayor or anyone else - as ranking fire officer, that decision was my responsibility) to clear a collapse zone surrounding the building and to stop all activity within that zone. Approximately three hours after that order was given, WTC 7 collapsed.
Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit.
Regards, Dan Nigro
Chief of Department FDNY (retired) Source
Meet Alex Jones
The only people who are gullible are the people who buy your t-shirts, you ass clown.
so why did they want WTC 7 to come down?
I like the Galileo part.
Alex Jones is entertaining. A paranoid lunatic who bullies those he disagrees with . . . but entertaining.
Still waiting on mouse to back off the "pull it" BS.
..or for that matter Dan or any other conspiranut to either directly call Nigro a liar or take it back.
You can't have it both ways, either he was in on it, or he wasn't.
Because the only way that the "Silverstein ordered the demolition when he said pull it" thing is true is if this guy is lying.
Call him a liar straight up or take it back, but don't ignore what the guy said.
The thing that gets me is that he mentioned a lof of other things about this, such as the lack of water to control the fires.
For the conspiracy nuts why is that not addressed?
Or was he lying about that too?
Half truth ^ not good enough!
There were no firefighters in WTC 7, so there were no firefighters in WTC 7 to "pull".
If Silverstein didn't pull WTC 7, then who did?
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