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Welcome to Western Europe.
Glad Obama and the Democraps are tacking on another $2 trillion to the tab.
Assholes.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=88851
The total U.S. obligations, including Social Security and Medicare benefits to be paid in the future, effectively have placed the U.S. government in bankruptcy, even before new continuing social welfare obligation embedded in the massive spending plan are taken into account.
The real 2008 federal budget deficit was $5.1 trillion, not the $455 billion previously reported by the Congressional Budget Office, according to the "2008 Financial Report of the United States Government" as released by the U.S. Department of Treasury.
The difference between the $455 billion "official" budget deficit numbers and the $5.1 trillion budget deficit cited by "2008 Financial Report of the United States Government" is that the official budget deficit is calculated on a cash basis, where all tax receipts, including Social Security tax receipts, are used to pay government liabilities as they occur.
But the numbers in the 2008 report are calculated on a GAAP basis ("Generally Accepted Accounting Practices") that include year-for-year changes in the net present value of unfunded liabilities in social insurance programs such as Social Security and Medicare.
Under cash accounting, the government makes no provision for future Social Security and Medicare benefits in the year in which those benefits accrue.
Welcome to Western Europe.
I realized that the government owes us and our foreign creditors the world a few weeks ago. One of the people I talked about this with is a friend of mind who doesn't think there's anything wrong with all of this.
You know what he said? "Yeah, but not all at once."
I guess that statement will now replace "Yeah, but we owe it mostly to ourselves."
We don't have to worry about that for a couple of years so who cares? lol..................
There used to be a time...not so very long ago, where Americans were known for their dedication to "making sure our children have a better life than we did."
It was the characteristic most cherished by the WWII and Depression era generations.
This generations most cherished characteristic (demonstrated by both the GOP and Democrats...championed as of late by the Obamaistas) is "give it to me...I want it now...and our children, children's children...children's children's children...
Note the 5 fold increase in debt when you add SS and Medicare. This is the legacy of FDR. Social "en lement" spending has been the underlying cancer that will ultimately kill the golden egg .
Anybody celebrating this "stimulus" bill...is a disgrace not only to themselves, but the generations that follow who we are leaving this debt too.
We are ing our children's and country's future...and celebrating it.
We should be hanging our heads in shame.
"Not me baby!!...it's party time!!"
SIG
Not that hard to realize with any sort of accounting or economics knowledge. That's one of the absolutely terrifying aspects of the baby boomer retirement. Since we're applying SS & Medicare tax to the general accounts to hide the true deficit (Clinton never provided a true surplus), when SS Payouts > Revenue, it's REALLY going to suck.
Not to worry! We will either monetize the debt by devaluing our currency 50%, or print so much money inflation rages and we pay off those debts with cheap worthless dollars!
Sucks for you if you are holding a bunch of long term US securities.
I'm so sick of mother ers like AHF. This isn't a political problem, its a society and lifestyle problem. You want your cake and you want to eat it too. We have enjoyed and unnatural share of the worlds wealth in this country for a long ass time and all of these problems are merely symptoms of that condition.
The US GDP is undergoing a contraction because at the root of things, we as a society have spent more than we have and thats coming back into balance. We've been racking up a balance and now after years of GOP led deficits due to trickle down economics (trickle down works - but it doens't work as some sort of bubble where the US is seperated from the rest of the world - did any mother ers stop to think that those in the US aren't at the bottom of the trickle down chain?) you have to audacity to lay this at the feet of the guy who just stepped into the hole?
Americans want to keep their standard of living and Obama is doing the nessecary to keep that. Its a high risk situation but the fact of the matter is that tax cuts aren't going to make it happen. Someone's got to make up the GDP shortfall and its not goign to come from anything other than government spending because they are the only ones with the will and ability to make it happen.
This is not to say major changes aren't needed. You need to find a way to revamp the way we spend money as a whole in this country and if you want America to maintain a high relative standard of living then you have to make sure we're able to compete with the rest of the countries in the world which means building up an exceptional workforce. The one truth that most politicians can't share with you at the moment is that american workers are terrible when compared to the rest of the world. We have very little advantadges and cost a of a lot more.
In other words, if you're going to about the current situation and don't want to get into further debt in order to get out of it then you better be ready for some drastic changes in this country. And we all know that as much as people love to about that, they're not about to undergo a societal transformation that substantialy lowers the standard of living in order to preserve the economic future of this country.
Its the equivilant of a college student living poorly in order to have a higher standard of living further in life and there is no way our country has any will to undertake that type of an effort. It NEVER has. As much as people lament the efforts of previous generations the fact is they were never trying to maintain they were simply growing and the reason things were always better for the subsequent generation was their continued ascendence.
Guess what, its a lot harder to stay on top when the rest of the world is trying to catch up.
We are about to undergo a societal transformation that substantially lowers the standard of living. It's called a depression. The wealth of the last 30 years was fake. It was a debt bubble. Now it has burst, and things never will be the same as before.
Why not? Because the national debt and en lements aren't going away, our productive base is decimated, and all the medicine in the cabinet is inflationary. We were fiscally ed before this happened; the so-called cure will us up even more.
Making do with less won't even be a choice. We're going to be poor.
It's a bit simplistic to suggest there are no adverse consequences for inflating our way out of the mess. Leaving currency collapse completely aside, hyperinflation kills the purchasing power of the US consumer, and China has already asked for guarantees on its Treasurys. Inflate too much, and it's the functional equivalent of default for our creditors and penury for the American people. Don't think they'll all stand idly by and just let it happen.
There's a lot of mischief foreign and domestic that we'd face if we go down this road
If you believe that then its fine, but do you honestly believe any politician is going to say or do anything to facilitate this line of thinking? Is anyone going to say to the people "we're ed?"
I really ing doubt it and I don't see anyone on the GOP stepping up to the plate with that line of thinking.
Obama is trying to avoid that. There's only one way to do that and thats through government spending in order to overcome the reduction in the GDP until we're able to produce at that level again. Tax cuts or anything the GOP has proposed simply make that impossible.
If you want to argue whether or not it will work that's fine but ing about the only available course of action that has a chance in of achieving the goal you want like AHF is doing is moronic.
Really? I think you are mistaken.Americans want to keep their standard of living and Obama is doing the necessary to keep that.
There is a war on the "middle class". I don't even know who qualifies for this term anymore since the government lumps anyone not making 80k+. The words sound great, but the effects of the actions will not help people keep their standard of living. Last time I checked, health care is in for an ass kicking for the people that can already afford it.
The idiots who go into debt on frivolous depreciating assets deserve to get knocked back down the totem pole. Not the good hard working people who have walked the line. Unfortunately that is not how it works, and the government surely is not helping the later. Not anywhere close.
Ron Paul.
The guy both Republicans and Democrats laughed off the stage. Only now, the rest of the country isn't laughing.
Obama is trying to avoid a collapse? Really. What has he done to try and avoid it? Push for even more strengthened unions? Spend even more trillions on pork that will not stimulate the economy?
Isn't that the truth. Obama and the liberals in congress don't give a damn about the people who make this nation work. They just want to keep their cons uents happy by providing all the federal services possible. Just look at this bailout. Most all of it is added social programs rather than things that will generate real jobs.
We are almost there people. Once we cross that line where more than 50% of the people are net users of the government, the heart of this nation is dead!
Its as though you guys can't read.
And this surprises you?
You're basically stealing your grandsons in a desperate attempt to keep your standard of living for another couple of decades. We've been doing that over here for awhile. It doesn't work forever though. And it creates an additional problem: the impact of the government in the economy becomes so big that it starts having an huge effect on the process of creating wealth, slowing it down even more.
You're ed up, you should be lowering the federal spending and the monetary mass now, not the opposite.
The problem isn't and never has been the stimulus package. Keynesian economics is what it is and it will work. The problem is the already existing national debt brought on by decades of deficit spending who's blame cannot be laid at the feet of Obama. And before you go laying that blame at the feet of the Dems, I point you to the balanced budgets of the 90s and how the GOP managed to that up.
Absolutely not. And it's a goddam disservice if you ask me.
I'm familiar with Keynesian theory. , I was one of the ST posters who started the conversation about it.
I'm deeply conflicted about the stimulus. While I think it is justified from a purely humanitarian perspective, even boosters will admit that it poses fiscal and monetary dangers . In addition as currently constructed it may not work. Krugman in particular won't shut up about how the spending is way too small to do what you describe.
Also, there's something fundamentally misguided, it seems to me, about making the goal restoring the economic status quo ante. The former GDP had a debt/mortgage/derivatives/fuel bubble at its back. Our wealth was a mirage. Without reinflating the bubble, how can we restore the previous level of productivity?
I do want to argue about whether it will work or not. You can't guarantee it will.
IMO the most important thing to do is to level with the banks and the American people about default. Good god, we've spent 2 trillion so far on the financial sector and we don't control any of it yet? ing nationalize already. Quit throwing money down the toilet.
I'm in favor of receivership for insolvent banks, 86'ing Fair Value Accounting and Basel II capital rules and hefty payroll tax abatement for starters. Saying that stimulus is the only option is simplistic. I understand that doing nothing isn't an option for politicians, so I can't really join you in applauding a forced move that may wreck our bottom line, our currency and may not even avert deflation.
If you grant this possibility, the door is open for consideration of the chance that deflation is not a greater disaster than the course we're currently on.
The US economy contracted from 1930-1934. My grandparents survived. What makes you think we wouldn't?
Deflation destroys bad debt and malinvestment, allows price discovery, consolidates productivity and strengthens the currency. I'm not saying it isn't very very painful, and not a little bit risky, but there's historical evidence it's survivable, and it does have a silver lining.
What goes up must come down. The idea that the government can prevent the business cycle from following its own due course is historically not well founded. In fact, it's a big part of how we got into this mess. If Greenspan hadn't lowered interest rates so dramatically in 2001 there might not have been such a destructive debt bubble.
Who gives a what politicians say or think? Is adding on to the already insurmountable debt a good idea?
No, it isnt. The stimulus bill will do nothing. It will help a very limited amount of people for a very short amount of time.
The worst part is, this is only the first one of a series. This isnt the answer, not even close. There is no answer. And if a politician is that self-absorbed to openly admit it, then fine. Do nothing and let nature takes its course. But worsening the situation is....unforgivable.
Its has no chance in , not a snowball's chance, to even make the slightest difference for any sustainable time. Because...If you want to argue whether or not it will work that's fine but ing about the only available course of action that has a chance in of achieving the goal you want like AHF is doing is moronic.
a) The total amount isnt near enough. Thus, this is the first of many stimulus packages, IMO (3 at least in his first term).
b) We dont have the money! We're going to play Jesus and create food out of thin air. Its going to be great.
c) Worse and most damning, no politician has the spine to admit the facts. Fact: We're ed. This isnt some engineering problem where even the greatest minds are stumped about what to do. Or a military problem like trying to fight a non-nationalist army hiding behind the civilian population. This is a problem thats been brewing for 2 generations that has accelerated in the past 8 years to point of no return.
So, is it better to "try something" knowing it wont work. or leaving well enough alone and preparing the people for rapid change?
Personally, I prefer the no bull approach. But I am sure there are millions of Americans with blinders on who dont want to hear the bad people talk about bad stuff, I mean, theyre already cranked on Zoloft for their depression.
But the fact that the realists of this country have to somehow have pity for the Idiot Nation and not criticize this stimulus bill for what it is, is absurd.
There is NOTHING anyone or any en y can do about our economic situation. Nothing. The sooner people realize, understand and plan for that inevitability, the better off this country will be and the sooner it will recover.
But because politicians dont want to be accused of "doing nothing", they're just going to worsen the situation and drag out an already looming depression to maybe the point of insolvency and collapse.
I would respect our political leadership a uva lot more if they had any backbone whatsoever. Obama obviously, is just another politician seeking re-election first and economic recovery second.
Because if he truly cared about the economy, he'd do/suggest/educate the country about en lement programs like SS and Medicare.
His Congress would be none to happy with him because, once again, theyre politicians. They do what is politically expedient and what gets them in a proper position to be re-elected before they ever consider whats best for the country.
Tacking more money onto our national debt is about the dumbest ing thing we could do. Yet, we're doing it. Whatever. This place is going to burn...at least I'll be alive to see the fall of the country I love.
Thats fine, but then the problem has nothing to do with the partisan politics of the OP. The GOPs solution increases the debt as well because when you cut the inflow of money to the government through tax cuts the deficit still grows. Thats what pisses me off the most about this process. When assholes about the outcome as if the other side has a radically different plan.
Winehole, I generally believe you're one of the smarter and more educated posters in here but you have a strange gnack for missing nuance bud. My whole point was about how foolish AHF's stance is. I agree whole heartdly with the bank nationalization (see how Europe handled this) but you have to remember what happend on the Obama campaign trail and how much politics is playing into how this iss being worked out.
Do you remember all the calls of socialism? Have you seen the manner in which the GOP is reacting to what is already on going? Bank nationalization would be a big step in pulling the wind out of Obama's sails and would remove a lot of the power he currently weilds making him a weaker figure and much more impotent in finding a way to deal with this situation. Thats another reason the enablers like AHF really ing piss me off. Their stupidity and ignorance of what is actually happening is what enables the GOP to continue to us.
Me and DarkReign have a different plan, or didn't you notice?
We tell the truth, face the music and take our lumps. We earned it.
How hard is that?
I don't like to call this politics "Keynesian". They should be called neo-Keynesian or socialist. JMK wasn't crazy, when he proposed what people now call Keynesian remedies things were hugely different: the federal obligations were nowhere close to exceed the world GPD. What Keynes advocated the government to do in an extremely serious depression is more than the government does now during economic expansion periods.
Democratic politicians (meaning politicians who have to win democratic elections) will never ever put the interests of the unborns ahead of those of their electorate. The America republic is corrutped by the excess of democracy. That's the first thing, in the ins ucional realm, you should fix.
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