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  1. #1
    They hate us - but they want to be us!
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    Obama's Rhetoric Is the Real 'Catastrophe'
    By BRADLEY R. SCHILLER

    President Barack Obama has turned fearmongering into an art form. He has repeatedly raised the specter of another Great Depression. First, he did so to win votes in the November election. He has done so again recently to sway congressional votes for his stimulus package.

    In his remarks, every gloomy statistic on the economy becomes a harbinger of doom. As he tells it, today's economy is the worst since the Great Depression. Without his Recovery and Reinvestment Act, he says, the economy will fall back into that abyss and may never recover.

    This fearmongering may be good politics, but it is bad history and bad economics. It is bad history because our current economic woes don't come close to those of the 1930s. At worst, a comparison to the 1981-82 recession might be appropriate. Consider the job losses that Mr. Obama always cites. In the last year, the U.S. economy shed 3.4 million jobs. That's a grim statistic for sure, but represents just 2.2% of the labor force. From November 1981 to October 1982, 2.4 million jobs were lost -- fewer in number than today, but the labor force was smaller. So 1981-82 job losses totaled 2.2% of the labor force, the same as now.

    Job losses in the Great Depression were of an entirely different magnitude. In 1930, the economy shed 4.8% of the labor force. In 1931, 6.5%. And then in 1932, another 7.1%. Jobs were being lost at double or triple the rate of 2008-09 or 1981-82.

    This was reflected in unemployment rates. The latest survey pegs U.S. unemployment at 7.6%. That's more than three percentage points below the 1982 peak (10.8%) and not even a third of the peak in 1932 (25.2%). You simply can't equate 7.6% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Other economic statistics also dispel any analogy between today's economic woes and the Great Depression. Real gross domestic product (GDP) rose in 2008, despite a bad fourth quarter. The Congressional Budget Office projects a GDP decline of 2% in 2009. That's comparable to 1982, when GDP contracted by 1.9%. It is nothing like 1930, when GDP fell by 9%, or 1931, when GDP contracted by another 8%, or 1932, when it fell yet another 13%.

    Auto production last year declined by roughly 25%. That looks good compared to 1932, when production shriveled by 90%. The failure of a couple of dozen banks in 2008 just doesn't compare to over 10,000 bank failures in 1933, or even the 3,000-plus bank (Savings & Loan) failures in 1987-88. Stockholders can take some solace from the fact that the recent stock market debacle doesn't come close to the 90% devaluation of the early 1930's.

    Mr. Obama's analogies to the Great Depression are not only historically inaccurate, they're also dangerous. Repeated warnings from the White House about a coming economic apocalypse aren't likely to raise consumer and investor expectations for the future. In fact, they have contributed to the continuing decline in consumer confidence that is restraining a spending pickup. Beyond that, fearmongering can trigger a political stampede to embrace a "recovery" package that delivers a lot less than it promises. A more cool-headed assessment of the economy's woes might produce better policies.

    Mr. Schiller, an economics professor at the University of Nevada, Reno, is the author of "The Economy Today" (McGraw-Hill, 2007).

  2. #2
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    Obama's Rhetoric Is the Real 'Catastrophe'
    By BRADLEY R. SCHILLER

    President Barack Obama has turned fearmongering into an art form. He has repeatedly raised the specter of another Great Depression. First, he did so to win votes in the November election. He has done so again recently to sway congressional votes for his stimulus package.

    In his remarks, every gloomy statistic on the economy becomes a harbinger of doom. As he tells it, today's economy is the worst since the Great Depression. Without his Recovery and Reinvestment Act, he says, the economy will fall back into that abyss and may never recover.

    This fearmongering may be good politics, but it is bad history and bad economics. It is bad history because our current economic woes don't come close to those of the 1930s. At worst, a comparison to the 1981-82 recession might be appropriate. Consider the job losses that Mr. Obama always cites. In the last year, the U.S. economy shed 3.4 million jobs. That's a grim statistic for sure, but represents just 2.2% of the labor force. From November 1981 to October 1982, 2.4 million jobs were lost -- fewer in number than today, but the labor force was smaller. So 1981-82 job losses totaled 2.2% of the labor force, the same as now.

    Job losses in the Great Depression were of an entirely different magnitude. In 1930, the economy shed 4.8% of the labor force. In 1931, 6.5%. And then in 1932, another 7.1%. Jobs were being lost at double or triple the rate of 2008-09 or 1981-82.

    This was reflected in unemployment rates. The latest survey pegs U.S. unemployment at 7.6%. That's more than three percentage points below the 1982 peak (10.8%) and not even a third of the peak in 1932 (25.2%). You simply can't equate 7.6% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Other economic statistics also dispel any analogy between today's economic woes and the Great Depression. Real gross domestic product (GDP) rose in 2008, despite a bad fourth quarter. The Congressional Budget Office projects a GDP decline of 2% in 2009. That's comparable to 1982, when GDP contracted by 1.9%. It is nothing like 1930, when GDP fell by 9%, or 1931, when GDP contracted by another 8%, or 1932, when it fell yet another 13%.

    Auto production last year declined by roughly 25%. That looks good compared to 1932, when production shriveled by 90%. The failure of a couple of dozen banks in 2008 just doesn't compare to over 10,000 bank failures in 1933, or even the 3,000-plus bank (Savings & Loan) failures in 1987-88. Stockholders can take some solace from the fact that the recent stock market debacle doesn't come close to the 90% devaluation of the early 1930's.

    Mr. Obama's analogies to the Great Depression are not only historically inaccurate, they're also dangerous. Repeated warnings from the White House about a coming economic apocalypse aren't likely to raise consumer and investor expectations for the future. In fact, they have contributed to the continuing decline in consumer confidence that is restraining a spending pickup. Beyond that, fearmongering can trigger a political stampede to embrace a "recovery" package that delivers a lot less than it promises. A more cool-headed assessment of the economy's woes might produce better policies.

    Mr. Schiller, an economics professor at the University of Nevada, Reno, is the author of "The Economy Today" (McGraw-Hill, 2007).
    Are you for or against fear mongering? I guess we can surmise that you are against fear mongering.

  3. #3
    Dancing Machine Gino's Avatar
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    Obama's put himself in a tough position.

    1) He's been screaming about how if we dont pass Pelosi's bill, its the end of the economic world as we know it.

    2) Now that its passed, he has to convince everyone that its working.

  4. #4
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Obama's put himself in a tough position.

    1) He's been screaming about how if we dont pass Pelosi's bill, its the end of the economic world as we know it.

    2) Now that its passed, he has to convince everyone that its working.

    Maybe he's trying to make it appear extremely bad so that ANY improvement, no matter how insignificant, looks all that much better.


    I just remember people paying double-digit interest rates on mortgages during the Jimmy Carter era.

  5. #5
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    You simply can't equate 7.6% unemployment with the Great Depression.
    You simply can't equate 8.1% unemployment with the Great Depression.
    You simply can't equate 8.7% unemployment with the Great Depression.
    You simply can't equate 9.3% unemployment with the Great Depression.
    You simply can't equate 9.9% unemployment with the Great Depression.
    You simply can't equate 10.4% unemployment with the Great Depression.
    You simply can't equate 10.9% unemployment with the Great Depression.
    You simply can't equate 11.3% unemployment with the Great Depression.
    You simply can't equate 11.6% unemployment with the Great Depression.
    You simply can't equate 11.9% unemployment with the Great Depression.
    OK, so maybe it's starting to look like the Great Depression, but it's all Obama's fault.

  6. #6
    Dancing Machine Gino's Avatar
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    Keep going. Wasnt unemployment in the 30s during the great depression?

  7. #7
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    27%, I believe.

    If Schiller thinks unemployment has already peaked, he'd have a point.

  8. #8
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    With obvious partisanship aside, I believe the "stimulus" package amounts to on a stick.

    There is nothing that can be done to float this economy through the serious beatdown it is about to take. You can write checks on the backs of future generations all youd like, youre only mortgaging your future in some fatalist attempt to live through the present.

    All in all, it is my opinion that the least effective course of action for government is the path it will most likely take. Its just like the POTUS said...."doing nothing is not an option" when doing nothing is exactly what should be happening. Let the banks fail, let credit fall through the floor.

    Government should be there to protect the citizens and their interests, not the debt collevtion of banks underwriting faulty/falsified loans. Sure, our economy will go into the Almighty ter of ters, but really....is that even unavoidable now as it is?

    IMO, this is what happens when money is privatized. Our economy, our way of life, in the hands of bankers. That was a great ing idea....the guy who thought of that grand ing strategy should have his descendants euthanized.

    I havent posting lately for one sole reason....I cant ing believe this is actually happening. I mean, it obviously is so I am not in denial. But the first domino was pushed over a long time ago, its just that the track has split 13x since and its hard to keep track of where it is going and which track is next.

    Stop one, you still have 12 more picking up speed. Im shocked, plain and simple. I never thought, in all my wildest dreams I would actually see the day our country collapsed (economically speaking, which is about as bad as it gets).

    I dont know if I am saddened by it or not. My personal worth has....well, lets just say its about as bad as yours. What I had is now meaningless to what remains. Here I thought I had a good thing going and that my great-grandchildren would be going to college on my dime....HA!

    Not anymore. Never again. Im not terribly upset by it, but watching politicians preach the Word about economic recovery is about as revolting and immeasurably upsetting as I can stand. These criminals are responsible for all of this.

    I refuse to emulate our police force and only blame/prosecute the users of this drug. I blame the cartels, I blame the importers. Our political leadership. Those ing pricks on Capitol Hill.

    Aaaaannnnnnyway, thats my therapy for the day. Enjoy our destruction, we're ing paying for it.

  9. #9
    Believe.
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    What doesn't' kill you makes you stronger..

    Time for this generation to grow some brains.
    Last edited by FreeMason; 02-16-2009 at 07:41 PM.

  10. #10
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    "our current economic woes don't come close to those of the 1930s."

    "current" is the key word. This only started seriously when arch-villain Paulsen killed Lehman Bros, although financial insiders knew where we were going as far back as 2007.

    It will take a LONG time for highest-ever household debt to be paid down.

    Employment isn't up to where it was in '82. Just wait.

  11. #11
    Believe.
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    I love how this bill got pushed through the system so quickly then all of our glorious leaders went on nice vacations

  12. #12
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I love how this bill got pushed through the system so quickly then all of our glorious leaders went on nice vacations
    Per Mr. Obama's request. If the GOP hadn't received a pants down spanking at the polls last November, there's no way it could have been done this quickly.

  13. #13
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    Repugs, at their most repugnant, are doing everything to up Obama and up America, so they have some chance in '10 and '12.

  14. #14
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    What doesn't' kill you makes you stronger..

    Time for this generation to grow some brains.
    Problem is, this C.R.A.P. may kill us!

  15. #15
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Oogity Boogity, February
    You simply can't equate 7.6% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Originally Posted by Oogity Boogity, March
    You simply can't equate 8.1% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Originally Posted by Oogity Boogity, April
    You simply can't equate 8.7% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Originally Posted by Oogity Boogity, May
    You simply can't equate 9.3% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Originally Posted by Oogity Boogity, June
    You simply can't equate 9.9% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Originally Posted by Oogity Boogity, July
    You simply can't equate 10.4% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Originally Posted by Oogity Boogity, August
    You simply can't equate 10.9% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Originally Posted by Oogity Boogity, September
    You simply can't equate 11.3% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Originally Posted by Oogity Boogity, October
    You simply can't equate 11.6% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Originally Posted by Oogity Boogity, November
    You simply can't equate 11.9% unemployment with the Great Depression.

    Originally Posted by Oogity Boogity, December
    OK, so maybe it's starting to look like the Great Depression, but it's all Obama's fault.
    This would be funny if it weren't so sadly true about the way it will be viewed by many on the right.

  16. #16
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Repugs, at their most repugnant, are doing everything to up Obama and up America, so they have some chance in '10 and '12.
    There is more truth to this than most on the right would be willing to admit.

    I have always tried to take a sober, comprehensive view of the economy.

    For years I have been saying that things weren't 100% as ducky as the Bush administration said they were.

    For years, I have been accused of "wanting the US to fail" because I didn't blindly parrot the talking points distributed to us through the unofficial GOP propaganda machine.

    Things are bad, they are going to get worse, and for once we have someone treating us like grown-ups and admitting that things aren't all rosy.

    Everybody knows, but no one on the right will admit to it, that they are secretly hoping for things to get really bad, just so they can blame Obama and jump up and down like jackaninnies screaming "I told you so".

    If things don't get quite so bad, it will, of course, be the tax cuts. If things do get bad, it will be because we didn't do enough tax cuts.

    I really truly wish that there weren't any tax cuts in the stimulus bill. Either it would fail or not, and there would be no ambiguity.

  17. #17
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    What's bad for America is good for Republicans!

  18. #18
    Truth, justice, and the NBA
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    However, there are certain things that are different now that will make the Great Depression never happen now, not the least of which is that stockbrokers have learned not to panic and all pull out at once, causing a panic and ripple effect.

    That doesn't change the fact that this *IS* still the biggest economic disaster since that time. Just because it won't ever BECOME the Great Depression doesn't mean it isn't a disaster, and doesn't mean government intervention from becoming a bigger disaster. That's what I hear Obama saying, and I agree with him.

  19. #19
    They hate us - but they want to be us!
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    I have a su ion that most of the posters on this forum were either born after 1981 or are too young to remember the Carter Presidency. This economy isn't even as bad as it was during Carter's administration!

  20. #20
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I have a su ion that most of the posters on this forum were either born after 1981 or are too young to remember the Carter Presidency. This economy isn't even as bad as it was during Carter's administration!
    You should thank Carter for taking the right steps (hiring the right man) to end the stagflation. If only things were so easy this time around.

  21. #21
    They hate us - but they want to be us!
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    Riiight - Carter took the right steps - he screwed up sooo badly he was a one-term President! The only good thing to come from the Carter administration is Ronald Reagan!

  22. #22
    Basketball Expertise spurster's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting story. No doubt it exaggerates, but it's certainly not good.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-meltdown.html

    Failure to save East Europe will lead to worldwide meltdown

    The unfolding debt drama in Russia, Ukraine, and the EU states of Eastern Europe has reached acute danger point.

    By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
    Last Updated: 2:05AM GMT 15 Feb 2009

    If mishandled by the world policy establishment, this debacle is big enough to shatter the fragile banking systems of Western Europe and set off round two of our financial Götterdämmerung.

    Austria's finance minister Josef Pröll made frantic efforts last week to put together a €150bn rescue for the ex-Soviet bloc. Well he might. His banks have lent €230bn to the region, equal to 70pc of Austria's GDP.

    ...

  23. #23
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Riiight - Carter took the right steps - he screwed up sooo badly he was a one-term President! The only good thing to come from the Carter administration is Ronald Reagan!
    Paul Volcker.

  24. #24
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Worst economy since Great Depression
    Not now, but it will become that if the democrats get their way with legislation!

  25. #25
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    However, there are certain things that are different now that will make the Great Depression never happen now, not the least of which is that stockbrokers have learned not to panic and all pull out at once, causing a panic and ripple effect.

    That doesn't change the fact that this *IS* still the biggest economic disaster since that time. Just because it won't ever BECOME the Great Depression doesn't mean it isn't a disaster, and doesn't mean government intervention from becoming a bigger disaster. That's what I hear Obama saying, and I agree with him.
    World War One was called "The Great War" until World War Two.

    Make of that what you will.

    I don't think it will get quite as bad as the Great D, but I will admit to a great deal of uncertainty.

    I DO think it will snap back faster than anybody expects at some point in a couple of years, and make all the people who have been investing in stocks on a regular basis over the course of the downturn quite a bit of money.

    If you haven't ditched your gas-guzzler by then, you will in a hurry after that happens.

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