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Finley Average = +4.5
Team Average = +3.9
Roger Mason Jr. Avg = +2.0
I did not count the Denver game since Finley sat that one out.
We barely squeaked by a team that lost 8 of the last 9 and Finley was our saviour? Please. Finley has been done since last season. He started this season well offensively, but regressed quickly enough. And his defense has always been, at best, suspect.
Prince had a bad shooting night, and here's another guy that used to post people up and nowadays is just settling for jumpers. Finley had very little to do with that.
Now, I do think it's unfair to about his defense, because he was never a good defender. He just always managed to offset that with his offense, but when he's sucking on O as he has been for a while now, he's just dead weight on the court. I'd like to see the plus/minus average on him for the past 10 games or so...
Finley Average = +4.5
Team Average = +3.9
Roger Mason Jr. Avg = +2.0
I did not count the Denver game since Finley sat that one out.
Ok, he has been here 4 years...so your reason for defending him is what he did 2 years ago and a few good games against the Suns last year? Nice...
Last edited by mexicanjunior; 02-20-2009 at 11:53 AM.
Thanks. And you did obviously right in not counting the Denver game.
It must be all perception then!
I dont hate Finley. I really dont. I try and look at the positives he brings to this team. But its painfully obvious that if Finley isnt making his shots he is of no use.
-Poor defender (sometimes mediocre)
-Poor rebounder
-Soft
-Slow
-Poor dribbler
-Poor Athletecism
Finley is the definition of streaky. When he is on he is a fantastic addition to this team. But those nights (we all know) come rarely. Kinda like once every 10-15 games. I dont hate Finley, I just get mad that Pop doesnt limit his minutes when hes obviously hurting the team.
Maybe last night he did decent but the past 4-5 games hes been horrible and in no way should he be playing that many minutes over Hairston.
Finley's +/- isn't a good indication, since most of his minutes come with the starters..
the main reason Finley shouldn't be starting, is that we already have 3 other average/below average defensive players in our starting lineup..Parker, Mason, and Bonner are having trouble defending at a consistent level..we can't have 4, we need Bowen to start..
Finley can still be useful as an offensive spark, but like Bonner, he shouldn't be starting for a top team..
Ok, he has been here 4 years...so your reason for defending him is what he did 2 years ago and a few good games against the Suns last year? Nice...
My reason for defending him is past contributions and his contributions this year.
He was the second best and third best scorer for long stretches this season and is probably enjoying his best season right now as a Spur.
That's why.
Yeah top teams don't need starting centers that get 15 and 7 against top teams like Detroit.
there's no reason Bonner can't score big off the bench..
he's a defensive liability though, especially when you're already starting Parker, Mason, and Finley, 3 average to bad defensive players..you can't surround Duncan with 4 guys that don't play consistent D..
So do Mason's. But I agree +/- is a flawed stat. I was just providing it in response to ElNono's post.
We're in agreement about Bowen starting, and I have been saying all season that he would be starting in the Playoffs. But why not start Finley with Bowen and bring Mason off the bench for a spark?the main reason Finley shouldn't be starting, is that we already have 3 other average/below average defensive players in our starting lineup..Parker, Mason, and Bonner are having trouble defending at a consistent level..we can't have 4, we need Bowen to start..
Finley can still be useful as an offensive spark, but like Bonner, he shouldn't be starting for a top team..
To me, they're pretty interchangeable. Finley has a stigma that he has earned over the course of his years with the Spurs, while Mason is the fresh young face who has hit some really big shots in marquee games this season. But as far as their regular contributions, they're both on about the same level.
Yet by reading this forum you get the impression we're talking about Steve Smith vs. Stephen Jackson.
Finley is shooting .378 from the 3. Mason is shooting .439. Mason does a much better job of spreading the floor. Although Mason's not hot stuff as a defender himself, he's better than Finley...
If you like the win shares statistical methods (David Berry), Mason is posting 0.080 WS/48, while Finley is posting 0.009 WS/48...
I'd say there is pretty compelling statistical evidence that Mason's more productive.
Win Shares that low are statistically negligible, IMO. Where did you find those #'s anyway? I calculate Finley at .07 WS/48 and Mason at .08, but I could be wrong.
Mason's high 3-pt % is front-loaded based on his hot shooting in November and December. If you look at their Jan/Feb splits, Mason is at .386 with Finley at .351... not exactly great percentages for either of them, and Mason has shot a much higher volume (106 vs. 74).
So here's something to consider... While Finley misses one three-pointer more than Mason for every 30 they take, Mason is bricking one more three pointer per game. That missed 3-pointer turns into a long rebound and a potential fast break for the other guys.
Again, regardless of whether Mason should start over Finley (and I would choose Mason too) there's really very little difference. Now, if we're talking about who closes the game, that's a different story altogether.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...finlemi01.html
and
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...masonro01.html
take WS in advanced statistics, divide by MP, and multiply by 48. I should acknowledge at this point, that I screwed up with Finley's numbers, dividing by 11452 (for MP), rather than his actual 1452. Finley's WS/48 is 0.073
Yeah, Mason had a really hot streak earlier this year. So did Fin, when he was shooting .429 from 3 in October, and .426 from 3 in December... Shooters are streaky, but that just means look at as large a sample as is valid (ie the totality of this season so far)...
As far as taking LOTS of 3 point shots, that's a good thing in my opinion. A 35% chance 3 pt shot is better than a 50% 2 pt shot. Our offence recognizes this and is built around it - either really high percentage close in shots, or 3's , but minimal jumpshot 2's. This does mean long rebounds, but that's why the system focuses on leaving only 1 player crashing the O-baords while everyone else gets back in transition situations... As a system, we try to give up minimal points in transition - consider that 35% of opposition shots against us are taken in the 1st 10 seconds of the opposition possession. Whereas for the celtics that # is 36%, Utah at 37% the lakers & Cleveland are at 39%, Golden State is at 40%...
Here I think you have missed the point. The debate isn't Mason vs. Finley for a starting spot. It's minutes for Finley vs. Bowen and Hairston. Especially because the current starting line-up (Mason, Parker, Finley, Bonner and TD) appears to have a bit of a balance problem. There are 5 players who can score, but only TD is a defensive stud. 4 scorers and a defender might balance things much better, especially if that defender is an effective enough shooter to spread the floor (does that describe Bowen by any chance?).
If you are judging his productivity on average ppg compared to the rest of the team, I guess he is meeting your standards. His poor shooting %, lack of defense, rebounding, and passing is why I think he shouldn't be getting the minutes he is pulling.
Okay, then I was doing it right, I just didn't know if you have gotten the .0090 from somewhere else. I still have a hard time with WS as a ulative total and not a per-game avg.
No argument here.As far as taking LOTS of 3 point shots, that's a good thing in my opinion. A 35% chance 3 pt shot is better than a 50% 2 pt shot. Our offence recognizes this and is built around it - either really high percentage close in shots, or 3's , but minimal jumpshot 2's. This does mean long rebounds, but that's why the system focuses on leaving only 1 player crashing the O-baords while everyone else gets back in transition situations... As a system, we try to give up minimal points in transition - consider that 35% of opposition shots against us are taken in the 1st 10 seconds of the opposition possession. Whereas for the celtics that # is 36%, Utah at 37% the lakers & Cleveland are at 39%, Golden State is at 40%...
The post I originally responded to referenced the starting lineup. I agree it's not important who starts. Still, I am not ready to give Hairston a lot of Finley's minutes, because I do not believe Finley represents a significant drop-off from Mason.Here I think you have missed the point. The debate isn't Mason vs. Finley for a starting spot. It's minutes for Finley vs. Bowen and Hairston. Especially because the current starting line-up (Mason, Parker, Finley, Bonner and TD) appears to have a bit of a balance problem. There are 5 players who can score, but only TD is a defensive stud. 4 scorers and a defender might balance things much better, especially if that defender is an effective enough shooter to spread the floor (does that describe Bowen by any chance?).
Update the Finley watch.
Detroit: 27 min, 3-5, 2-3, 8pts, 3rbs
Wizards: 30 min, 7-13, 5-9, 19pts, 4rbs, 1as, 2tos, 3stls
Last edited by loveforthegame; 02-21-2009 at 10:07 PM.
fins a beast
The point of this thread was to watch how Finley did while Manu was sidelined with his injury. Small sample so far but he is responding.
I myself don't really understand the bashing Finley gets either. He's been solid this year. Its mind boggling how fans forget the clutch shots he hits for us. He's had some key steals and rebounds this year as well. I swear I think guys just look at the box score and determine how good a player is on this site. Fin played great the 1st time Ginobilli was out. He comes back tonight with 19. I don't care how many minutes he gets because he's one of the best shooters on this team. And without Ginobilli he's probably the best behind Mason who btw has struggled from the floor but fans don't seem to remember that. Fact is, this is the NBA. No one shoots 100% from the field. And for a guy who's what? The 3rd or 4th or 5th option on this team? A guy who can hit clutch shots? I consider myself lucky. You can't have 12 Ginobilli's on a team. Just be happy we have a guy who knows his role and excels at it. He's struggled some games this season. Just like every player in the league. The thing about his struggling is that he doesn't really offer much else statistically. Which is a concern but Fin's been more good than bad this season. If fans don't have anything to about they panic.
Ugh...Finley. Once again he does just enough good to warrant too much playing time when he is sucking.
Fin shows some gills on him. Here's to keep the veteran swimming on a high tide!
Really sucked against the Wizards!
Dump this loser now!
Can't hit a shot at all.
Can't the Spurs do any better?
YOU were all ing over Fin when he became a spur, now you wanna dump on him ???? If he were on the mavs still and getting bought out everyone on this site would be all over his nuts saying sign him for the rest of the season ... Give me a break all you guys want is something or someone to about and the only way to make you happy is a new name on the back of the jersey .... Hairston is garbage , every shot he takes is sent into the fifth row and you guys think he should get more time over Fin ... Give me a break
Some form of consistency is all that's needed. If he follows up these two games with five turds, then what's the point?
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