Eric "Coward" Holder

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Strong.

Rebuttal?

Sure.

Look, Holder and several on this forum obviously do not understand the difference between semi-auto and fully automatic.

The weapons that Holder cites as being used in violence in Mexico are grenade launchers, grenades, and fully auto weapons.

You can't go out and buy grenades or launchers here in the U.S., so let's set that one aside.

On to the so called evil 'assault weapons.' You cannot buy a fully auto assault rifle in this country. The AK-47 styled weapons Manny cites are semi-auto versions of their automatic cousins the Soviets pumped out for decades.

Fully auto means you pull the trigger and it keeps firing bullets until the clip empties or you let go of the trigger.

Semi-auto means one trigger pull, one bullet. Semi-auto assault rifles, i.e., the Ak-47 and AR-15 variants sold in the U.S., fire one round per trigger pull. That's the same rate of fire as a pistol or revolver.

But they look evil, and are the gateway weapon to start moving down the path of banning all firearms for those like Holder and Obama who hate guns and want to take them away.

More firearms murders are committed in this country by way of revolver, 9mm handgun, or shotgun, than by these 'evil' weapons.

As to those who say there is no legitimate use for these other than to kill, well you're wrong

1) they're just fun to shoot
2) the first time any of you come face to face with a feral hog charging you through the brush from 20 feet away when you're out camping or hunting, you'd never begrudge anyone the right to have more than 4-5 shots in a hunting rifle magazine at their disposal.

As to Holder's conclusion that he needs to infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights in this country to help out Mexico with their problems, I suggest if he's that concerned about it he moves to Mexico and becomes their AG.

The automatic weapons the cartels are using in Mexico ain't coming from the U.S., they can't be bought here. They're coming from bought off Mexican army soldiers and illicit arms trade in South America.

But this violence in Mexico makes for a nice red herring for the administration to come after guns. And that's freakin' pathetic.

And just to come full circle on Manny's thread:

Yes, you can purchase the semi-auto style assault rifles here in the U.S. Several of the more anti-gun states in the east do require permitting before you buy. When you buy any gun in this country, your background is checked against an FBI database, except under certain exceptions (ie., here in Texas if you have a CHL they don't run the background check at the time of purchase, but they ran a more intensive FBI background check on you as part of the CHL permitting process).

The only way to purchase fully auto weapons that are being used in some of the violence in Mexico is if you pay some pretty exorbitant fees to the BATF, and go through an incredibly thorough screening process (have to sit down face to face with ATF, explain to them why you really feel you need full auto weapons, etc.).

There is no way to buy a semi-auto and get the parts to turn it into a full-auto without going through the same process (to buy the fully auto parts you have to go through the ATF as well).

And let's not pretend this is limited to assault weapons, Holder has declared his intent to go after hi capacity (over 10 round) magazines, as well as hollow point ammunition that is popular for home defense, under the guise of calling the ammunition 'cop killer' bullets. That's cute, it was a nice tag line used in the 80s when hollow points came out.

The fact is, if someone breaks into your home or attacks you out in public, you want to be able to use rounds like that to put the bad guy down in a hurry. Without hollow point ammo, you end up with bad days like the Luby's shooting, the Hollywood shootout, or the Miami FBI shootout.

[Winehole23]

.You can't go out and buy grenades or launchers here in the U.S., so let's set that one aside.

It's not what you don't know that will kill you. It's what think you know for a goddam fact. Are you sure about this? You were apparently wrong about illicit gun commerce b/w Mexico and the US being negligible.

As to those who say there is no legitimate use for these other than to kill, well you're wrong

1) they're just fun to shoot

Guns are fun to shoot. Yes. And yes. Wh23 enjoys and endorses the responsible discharge of firearms.

2) the first time any of you come face to face with a feral hog charging you through the brush from 20 feet away when you're out camping or hunting, you'd never begrudge anyone the right to have more than 4-5 shots in a hunting rifle magazine at their disposal.

It concerns me whenever my friends talk about going pig hunting. I always ask the firepower question, even though I know next to nothing about it. Do ye have enough never loses its relevance. WH23 respects a pig.

As to Holder's conclusion that he needs to infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights in this country to help out Mexico with their problems, I suggest if he's that concerned about it he moves to Mexico and becomes their AG.

I take it you live in Texas, AHF. Did you forget that it touches Mexico, and that we share problems like organized crime?

The automatic weapons the cartels are using in Mexico ain't coming from the U.S., they can't be bought here. They're coming from bought off Mexican army soldiers and illicit arms trade in South America.

1800 of 2400 weapons were traceable to US sellers in 2007. Who cares where the guns were made?

Yes, you can purchase the semi-auto style assault rifles here in the U.S.

With aftermarket modification, some of these mean lookin guns are convertible to full auto, no?

The only way to purchase fully auto weapons that are being used in some of the violence in Mexico is if you pay some pretty exorbitant fees to the BATF, and go through an incredibly thorough screening process (have to sit down face to face with ATF, explain to them why you really feel you need full auto weapons, etc.).

There is no way to buy a semi-auto and get the parts to turn it into a full-auto without going through the same process (to buy the fully auto parts you have to go through the ATF as well).

Is that the only way to do it?

The fact is, if someone breaks into your home or attacks you out in public, you want to be able to use rounds like that to put the bad guy down in a hurry. Without hollow point ammo, you end up with bad days like the Luby's shooting, the Hollywood shootout, or the Miami FBI shootout.

Whatever works for you is fine with me.

I'm generally progun, but I can see the public safety angle.

Can you?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's not what you don't know that will kill you. It's what think you know for a goddam fact. Are you sure about this? You were apparently wrong about illicit gun commerce b/w Mexico and the US being negligible.

I wasn't wrong about illicit gun commerce. I said they weren't getting automatic weapons from the U.S., which is true. So they bought semi-autos here and smuggled them there.

1) the Mexican border patrol needs to do a better job catching guns going into their country if it's such an issue, instead of us Americans having our 2nd Amendment rights infringed on to help out a lawless neighboring country.

2) Your question about grenades and grenade launchers isn't even worth my time. Tell you what, you find me a single gun show or web site for firearms in this country where you can buy either of those items without the requisite cavity search from the BATF, and I'll happily eat crow. But you won't.

I take it you live in Texas, AHF. Did you forget that it touches Mexico, and that we share problems like organized crime?

And banning guns here won't do squat. They banned guns in England, and now their murder rate is higher than before, only people are using knives. They're now considering banning everything down to steak knives over there.

There are laws on the books against straw man purchases and smuggling firearms across international boundaries. We should be enforcing those, not banning guns.

But this whole issue with what's going on in Mexico is just weak political cover for Holder to go after guns.

And more to the point, they're getting most of their evil full auto stuff from other places in South America or the Mexican army. Banning weapons in our country will just turn them to Columbia, Brazil, etc.

You want more security on our border? Build a wall and put up more border patrol. Banning guns isn't going to solve squat for what's going on in Mexico right now.

1800 of 2400 weapons were traceable to US sellers in 2007. Who cares where the guns were made?

So go after sellers who are breaking the laws and seal up the border, instead of trying to trample on our cons utional rights to help out a sorry neighbor country that does everything it can to encourage its people to come here illegally.

With aftermarket modification, some of these mean lookin guns are convertible to full auto, no?

Aftermarket parts that can only be purchased here in the U.S. with the aforementioned long conversation with BATF.

Is that the only way to do it?

I can't speak to the firearms laws in South and Central America, but that's the way it is here in the U.S. Additionally, when they passed the laws controlling automatic weapons, one of the provisions was that semi-autos would be built to specs that would not allow them to be modified to become full auto. I believe this was achieved by sizing parts such that full auto parts, mainly the trigger and feed/receiver parts (which move the bullets from the mags to the chamber) were too large to fit in semi-autos.

Here's some more background on the purchase of full autos and your grenades:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

In general, even some components that make up an NFA item are considered regulated. For example, each baffle inside a silencer, if removed from the tube, is considered a silencer. Thus, individuals cannot legally own any part of a silencer without registering it with the BATFE and paying NFA taxes. Silencers and machine guns are the most heavily regulated. For example, in Ruling 81-4, BATFE declared that any AR-15 drop-in Auto-Sears made after November 1, 1981 is itself a machine gun, and is therefore subject to regulation. While this might seem to mean that pre-1981 sears are legal to possess without registration, BATFE closes this loophole in other publications, stating, "Regardless of the date of manufacture of a drop in auto sear, possession of such a sear and certain M-16 fire control parts is possession of a machinegun as defined by the NFA. Specifically, these parts are a combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun and are a machinegun as defined in the NFA."

Owning the parts needed to assemble other NFA weapons is generally prohibited. A person cannot own machine gun trigger components unless he owns a registered machine gun. The M2-Carbine trigger pack is such an example of a “combination of parts” that is a machinegun in and of its own. Most of these have been registered as they were pulled from surplus rifles in the early 1960’s.

Most current fully-automatic trigger groups will not fit their semi-automatic firearm look-alike counterparts – the semi-automatic version is specifically constructed to reject the fully-automatic trigger group by adding metal in critical places. This addition is required by the ATF to prevent easy conversion of le I weapons into machine guns. Additionally, the fully-automatic trigger group is also permanently modified in such a way that it cannot be made to function as a fully-automatic fire control device. The ATF has listed required manufacturing procedures for modifying these fully-automatic trigger groups to make them into legal semi-automatic trigger-groups for civilian sales.

Here's the relevant part about purchasing full auto weapons or something like grenades:

All NFA items must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). Private owners wishing to purchase an NFA item must obtain permission from the ATF, obtain a signature from the county sheriff or city or town chief of police (not necessarily permission), pass an extensive background check to include submitting a photograph and finger prints, fully register the firearm, receive ATF written permission before moving the firearm across state lines, and pay a tax. The request to transfer ownership of an NFA item is made on an ATF Form 4.[2]

The registration or transfer process (to an individual or corporation) takes approximately 1-3 months to complete. Additionally, the firearm can never be handled or transported by any other private individual unless the firearm's registered owner is present.

And if you don't do all the above:

The Act makes certain conduct a criminal offense, including but not limited to: engaging in business as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer with respect to firearms without having registered or paid a special occupational tax; receiving or possessing a firearm transferred to oneself in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm made in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm not registered to oneself in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; transferring or making a firearm in violation of the NFA; or obliterating, removing, changing, or altering the serial number of the firearm.[3]

Violations of the Act are punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison and forfeiture of all devices or firearms in violation, and the individual's right to own or possess firearms in the future. The Act provides for a penalty of $10,000 for certain violations.[4] A willful attempt to evade or defeat a tax imposed by the Act is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison and a $100,000 fine ($500,000 in the case of a corporation), under the general tax evasion statute.[5] For an individual, the felony fine of $100,000 for tax evasion could be increased to $250,000.[6]

I'm generally progun, but I can see the public safety angle.

Can you?

I see it, but I don't feel it's a valid concern. I'll have to dig it up but I remember reading earlier this year that more crimes are committed with 9mm handguns, revolvers, and shotguns than with these 'evil' assault weapons.

This is more about incremental restrictions on gun ownership. If semi-auto rifles get banned and that gets held up in court against cons utional challenges, then the next jump for anti-gunners like Holder and Pelosi would be to argue semi-auto hand guns are evil, etc.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I wanted to put this into a separate post than my reply to you, but here's discussion of the previous AWB:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...ffect_on_crime

An unpublished 2004 study commissioned by the United States Department of Justice found that assault weapons were used in 2 to 8 percent of gun crimes prior to the ban. Large capacity magazines were also covered by the ban, accounting for 14% to 26% of guns used in crime prior to the ban. Following implementation of the ban, the share of gun crimes involving AWs declined by 17% to 72% across the localities examined by this study. It was also noted that should it be renewed, the ban's effects on gun violence were likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement due to assault weapons rarely being used in gun crimes even before the ban.[8]

A 1999 preliminary study commissioned by the Department of Justice on the Assault Weapons Ban found that gun murders dropped 11% from 1994 to 1995, though the "limited [study] time frame weakens the ability of statistical tests to discern effects that may be meaningful from a policy perspective," therefore the ban’s "short-term influence on gun violence has been uncertain, due perhaps to the continuing availability of grandfathered assault weapons, close subs ute guns and large capacity magazines, and the relative rarity with which the banned weapons were used in gun violence even before the ban."[9]

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

In 2007, the firearms agency traced 2,400 weapons seized in Mexico back to dealers in the United States, and 1,800 of those came from dealers operating in the four states along the border, with Texas first, followed by California, Arizona and New Mexico.

By the way, this proves what a farce gun bans are. California has some of the strictest gun measures in the U.S., including banning anything over 10 round magazines and outlawing the purchase of AR-15 and AK-47 style assault weapons. And they're #2 on the list.

[Winehole23]

I wasn't wrong about illicit gun commerce. I said they weren't getting automatic weapons from the U.S., which is true. So they bought semi-autos here and smuggled them there.

First of all, thanks for responding in detail and supporting your points. It's much appreciated.

That said, is the bolded a distinction without a difference? On the same evidence the government calls for a ban.

1) the Mexican border patrol needs to do a better job catching guns going into their country if it's such an issue, instead of us Americans having our 2nd Amendment rights infringed on to help out a lawless neighboring country.

Mexicans probably say the very same, but I know what you mean.

2) Your question about grenades and grenade launchers isn't even worth my time. Tell you what, you find me a single gun show or web site for firearms in this country where you can buy either of those items without the requisite cavity search from the BATF, and I'll happily eat crow. But you won't.

It was speculative.

I would tend to assume that there is a domestic black market for exotic weapons in addition to guns. That there is no legal path to ownership does not prevent the sale from happening. That was all I meant.

And banning guns here won't do squat. They banned guns in England, and now their murder rate is higher than before, only people are using knives. They're now considering banning everything down to steak knives over there.

Crazy. But we're not quite there yet. Not even close, really.

There are laws on the books against straw man purchases and smuggling firearms across international boundaries. We should be enforcing those, not banning guns.

Why pass a ty new law when existing law already covers it? Agree 100%.

But this whole issue with what's going on in Mexico is just weak political cover for Holder to go after guns.

Was this operation used opportunistically by Holder to promote intended policy? I'd say there's no doubt about it.

You want more security on our border? Build a wall and put up more border patrol. Banning guns isn't going to solve squat for what's going on in Mexico right now.

You think the guns don't drive through the checkpoints like everything else? How does a wall help that?

So go after sellers who are breaking the laws and seal up the border, instead of trying to trample on our cons utional rights to help out a sorry neighbor country that does everything it can to encourage its people to come here illegally.

I hope they liked our hospitality, because the trend has reversed, and pretty soon we might be following them back.

Aftermarket parts that can only be purchased here in the U.S. with the aforementioned long conversation with BATF.

*Black market.*

I can't speak to the firearms laws in South and Central America, but that's the way it is here in the U.S. Additionally, when they passed the laws controlling automatic weapons, one of the provisions was that semi-autos would be built to specs that would not allow them to be modified to become full auto. I believe this was achieved by sizing parts such that full auto parts, mainly the trigger and feed/receiver parts (which move the bullets from the mags to the chamber) were too large to fit in semi-autos.

Thanks for your scrutiny of this topic, AHF. It's appreciated.

IMO the legal bona fides of the makers -- if it is not defeated by the ingenuity of the market -- eventually falls to the skill of the craftsman. The users beat the game every time.

I see it, but I don't feel it's a valid concern. I'll have to dig it up but I remember reading earlier this year that more crimes are committed with 9mm handguns, revolvers, and shotguns than with these 'evil' assault weapons.

I believe you. These weapons are more of a danger to LE than anyone else probably.

This is more about incremental restrictions on gun ownership. If semi-auto rifles get banned and that gets held up in court against cons utional challenges, then the next jump for anti-gunners like Holder and Pelosi would be to argue semi-auto hand guns are evil, etc.

Free speech advocates emphasize the slippery slope too. It makes just as much sense in this context.

Buy the guns you need right now if you can afford it.

[clambake]

how are we supposed to protect the wealthy without assault weapons?

[Winehole23]

how are we supposed to protect the wealthy without assault weapons?

We have the police, the national guard and the US army for that. Or did you mean, to protect them from the police, the national guard and the US army?

Back in the mid eighties, one of my high school acquaintances designed a video game where yuppies ride around in their Suburbans with machine guns and bazookas and hunt poor people, hippies and the police.

I always assumed it was a sort of utopia for BP, but for all I know it could've been his premonition of the future.

[clambake]

We have the police, the national guard and the US army for that.

you left out blackwater. was that by design?

[Winehole23]

you left out blackwater. was that by design?

...is now known by the faintly asiatic name "Xe."

[MannyIsGod]

I like how AHF focused on what Holder is saying and completely ignore the fact that the ATF has been tracking these guns for some time now. Whether or not Holder incorrectly referenced what type of guns are being used or sold is pretty much irrelevent since the guns he's talking about are in the hands of those drug cartels and they are coming fromthe United States.

Those guns are being sold at gun shows and gun dealers here in the US and being taken to Mexico to be used. So yes, stopping those guns from being made available makes it harder for those criminals to get their hands on them. I'm a full believer that gun control doesn't stop guns from reaching the hands of a criminal and I don't believe this will completely stop these weapons from reaching their destinations in Mexico. That does not mean I think this is a bad idea because I don't feel we should stand by and allow this to happen or at least make it so ing easy for them to get the weapon because we feel they'll get them anyway.

We're not talking about handguns or regular rifles. We're talking about weapons specifically tailored to people who want to kill large amounts of other people and I see no protection for that in the 2nd amendment.

And of course, according to AHF its the Mexican government's responsibility to fix all of this. Nevermind we're the source of the problem. Nevermind that we provide the market for those drugs and nevermind that our drug laws make the black market so profitable and nevermind that our guns are the ones fueling this war. YOU fix it.

Yeah, Because for AHF its more important that some gun collecting asshole be able to buy an AK knockoff than it is for some stupid Mexicans to live a bit safer.

[clambake]

Is now known by the faintly asiatic name "Xe."

did china buy the naming rights?

[clambake]

Yeah, Because for AHF its more important that some gun collecting asshole be able to buy an AK knockoff than it is for some stupid Mexicans to live a bit safer.

perhaps it has escaped your attention that aggie has an insatiable appe e to appear "macho".

[Winehole23]

I like how AHF focused on what Holder is saying and completely ignore the fact that the ATF has been tracking these guns for some time now. Whether or not Holder incorrectly referenced what type of guns are being used or sold is pretty much irrelevent since the guns he's talking about are in the hands of those drug cartels and they are coming from the United States.

Distinction w/o a difference as above.

I'm a full believer that gun control doesn't stop guns from reaching the hands of a criminal .... That does not mean I think this is a bad idea because I don't feel we should stand by and allow this to happen or at least make it so ing easy for them to get the weapon because we feel they'll get them anyway.

Honest. Gun bans are ineffective, but worth doing anyway. Why make it so easy for the criminal?

We're not talking about handguns or regular rifles. We're talking about weapons specifically tailored to people who want to kill large amounts of other people and I see no protection for that in the 2nd amendment.

DC v er says as much. There's an individual right but no protection for "dangerous or unusual weapons."

And of course, according to AHF its the Mexican government's responsibility to fix all of this. Nevermind we're the source of the problem. Nevermind that we provide the market for those drugs and nevermind that our drug laws make the black market so profitable and nevermind that our guns are the ones fueling this war.

Nevermind.

Yeah, Because for AHF its more important that some gun collecting asshole be able to buy an AK knockoff than it is for some stupid Mexicans to live a bit safer.

I should have said dangerous mainly to LE and poor Mexicans.

[Winehole23]

did china buy the naming rights?

Regardless, Xe is repositioning itself to meet new security challenges wherever they may emerge.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Questions for the all out gun supporters. If we were to ban these makers from making these guns altogether, wouldn't that help getting them off the streets? What if we were to limit the number that can be produced? Wouldn't that make it less likely that the few that are out on the market would get into the wrong hands?

[Winehole23]

By the way, this proves what a farce gun bans are. California has some of the strictest gun measures in the U.S., including banning anything over 10 round magazines and outlawing the purchase of AR-15 and AK-47 style assault weapons. And they're #2 on the list.

In my mind this more goes to the magnitude of criminal opportunity (crime rate) than the fecklessness of the authorities, but you do have a basic point on competence here.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Questions for the all out gun supporters. If we were to ban these makers from making these guns altogether, wouldn't that help getting them off the streets? What if we were to limit the number that can be produced? Wouldn't that make it less likely that the few that are out on the market would get into the wrong hands?

Obama's election (and the anticipated gun ban we're now seeing advanced) has already limited the supply. You act like you can run down to Wal-Mart and find them by the shelve full. There is a finite supply of semi-auto rifles out there.

And of course, according to AHF its the Mexican government's responsibility to fix all of this. Nevermind we're the source of the problem. Nevermind that we provide the market for those drugs and nevermind that our drug laws make the black market so profitable and nevermind that our guns are the ones fueling this war. YOU fix it.

Yeah, Because for AHF its more important that some gun collecting asshole be able to buy an AK knockoff than it is for some stupid Mexicans to live a bit safer.

Yeah, silly me. It's America's job to fix corruption in Mexico, and clearly the fix for that is draconian gun laws here in the U.S.

It's not about gun collecting, and it's funny that you somehow think that 2400 firearms bought in the U.S. and used over the course of two years in Mexico is somehow the cause or a significant contributor to what's going on in Mexico.

It's cute, but what I'd expect out of you.

And again, this is straight out of the Brady Gun Law group's playbook. Get semi-auto rifles banned, have it held up in court, then go after semi-auto handguns.

The second amendment is as much about the people having a check on an out of control government as it is anything else. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to take my macho gun collection and go do some plinking.

[MannyIsGod]

Handguns have nothing to do with this. Protecting AK47s under the guise of handguns is ing ridiculous considering the latest rulings on handguns AHF. It's a total and complete strawman.

[Winehole23]

Handguns have nothing to do with this. Protecting AK47s under the guise of handguns is ing ridiculous considering the latest rulings on handguns AHF. It's a total and complete strawman.

People hate the first imposition, and some see this as being an essential liberty and a primary check against tyranny.

Yes, it's a total and complete strawman as currently deployed in this thread.

But I can also understand why the precedent would be hated, and why some people think they still need fully auto AK-47s.

[BradLohaus]

Come on people... do you want to cause massive write offs? We can't end the drug war, banks need this pipeline of drug money to stay afloat during times of crisis. Don't commit economic terrorism.

And I do wonder just who is supplying the weapons for the drug war.

[baseline bum]

With all the corruption in this world, I don't trust the police and the military to be the only ones with high-powered rifles and armor-piercing ammo.

[Winehole23]

With all the corruption in this world, I don't trust the police and the military to be the only ones with high-powered rifles and armor-piercing ammo.

There's that.

That we're even discussing this is a bad, bad sign. Why worry so much?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

There's that.

That we're even discussing this is a bad, bad sign. Why worry so much?

Add to it many states are currently rushing to pass legislation to reaffirm their tenth amendment rights of sovereignty. NH even just put up a bill that sets the stage for the declaration of our government being void and illegitimate if they keep going with their power grab.

I'm all for it, we need to hit the reset button on D.C.

[Winehole23]

I'm all for it, we need to hit the reset button on D.C.

Isn't that what elections are for and didn't we just have one?