"That Bernie Madoff guy is a genius, here is a few million."
Here's the kicker:
The market does know more than we do, because it is the collective sum of what WE know. That is the defintion of efficient markets. (basic finance/economics theory)
The problem conservatives have in making the case that the markets are ONLY dropping because of what Obama is doing is that there is waaaay more going on at any one time than what the government is doing.
The US governement, compared to the world economy total is rather small, for all of its current spending.
That would imply that whatever Obama does is, by the very definition of efficient markets, far outweighed by whatever else is going on, unless he takes governerment action to extremes far beyond the relatively modest (yes, that's right, I said modest) actions he has proposed.
Anyone who DOES say that the market's reactions are completely due to Obama's actions are simply demonstrating that they don't understand one of the more basic principles of finance.
Further:
Part of the definition of GDP is that it includes government spending (it is the term "G" in the equation that economists use to calculate GDP)
If we double our government's spending, and the total economy STILL shrinks at a 7% annual rate, what does that suggest about what is happening in the rest of the economy?
ing ouch is right.
Oh I agree completely. I think its a bull political ploy. Thats all.
In truth I don't really care. Its a marginalized group of people who continue to marginalize themselves.
Yup. Anybody with some common sense or isn't blinded by their own confirmation bias can see it is exactly that.
As I pointed out, the beauty of it is that when the market recovers, as it will eventually, Obama supporters will get to use that exact schtick against them, and claim all the credit. If conservatives criticise this linking, they will be forced to eat their words on this issue.
Conservatives are essentially, yet again, handing a weapon to beat them about the head with to their enemies, and the sad part is that many of them don't have the sense to realize it.
Only if you assume that conservatives in the future will develop logical consistency/coherency.
incestuous amplification
Yeah, you can call a pack of screaming, -hurling monkeys, a pack of screaming, -hurling monkeys... but at the end of the day, they're still going to be a pack of screaming, -hurling monkeys. Albeit powerless ones.
Republicans and Conservatives ARE Marginialized.
They are powerless; can do NOTHING to stop the Liberals and their agenda.
Congratulations.
If all you are, then, is trumpeters and mouthpieces singing in unison with the powers that be, bully for you; long live the king and all that. But what's the point of continuing to kick the Republicans (and Democrats apparently who dare speak ill of Obama?) It's not like they pose a threat.
Damn you people sound a LOT like the giddy defenders of Bush did not so long ago (and at one point I was included in THAT lot, so I know from where I speak)
Good. I hope it feels as ty for you as it did for us.
And the difference being that Bush (and his supporters) have proven to be absolute failures. We on the other hand have only proven to be something Rush hopes will fail.
People enjoy it. Payback is a .
Payback is a , isn't it?
Characterizing policy differences as a lack of patriotism sucked then. It still does.
Well, we are on a message board and I doubt the Cramer op-ed was posted so that we wouldn't argue over it's merits. And as it's/he is meritless, it only makes sense that we'd say so, no?
Meme: Dems are malevolent, mean and consumed with anger.
Why continue to kick the poor, poor Republicans while they're down? Isn't it enough for you that they're almost completely irrelevant?
Why do you hate America?
I think 101 wants us to say Cramer has a point (when he doesn't) just so we don't sound like him with Bush? Thats funny. There are lots of good reasons to not be completely happy with things Obama and his administration are doing. A Roubini article was posted a few days ago and you could post the Krugman article from 2 days ago as good examples.
But I'm not going to support a stupid ing loud mouthed asshole who got things wrong so recently just because it makes you feel better.
Thanks Winehole for pointing out conservative debate tactics. Because you're so vehement to point out faults on both sides.
So what's wrong about Cramer?
When Bush raised deficit spending, all of you were against it, now that obama raises it, it's totally fine.
Both of those issues have already been addressed in this thread.
Not having as many troops as neocons would have liked when they decide to indulge in some military adventurism.
There's no such thing: rhetorical tropes aren't proprietary.
Look, Iggy. I try to be fair, but because I feel more let down by conservatives, they get more of my spleen. I actually believe in some of their ideology (personal freedom, minimal government, cons utionalism) and they always me. With the Dems it's never a surprise, always bigger and better. But every single Republican President in my lifetime lied about what they were doing. So em. I'll pick on em all I want.
Following a Keynesian model, deficit spending is exactly what should be done now, just as cutting spending and raising taxes should be done once the economy recovers.
We'll see if it works.
Pfft stop using liberal logic! If plan A works now, it should work now and forever, and we should never need another plan!
What? It's like i wasn't being sarcastic or anything.There's no such thing: rhetorical tropes aren't proprietary.
Look, Iggy. I try to be fair, but because I feel more let down by conservatives, they get more of my spleen. I actually believe in some of their ideology (personal freedom, minimal government, cons utionalism) and they always me. With the Dems it's never a surprise, always bigger and better. But every single Republican President in my lifetime lied about what they were doing. So em. I'll pick on em all I want.
I understand that Obama is keynesian. But if Keynesian polices are meant to get us out of depression, then the former (cutting spending and raising taxes) will seem to keep us mediocre just above recession levels. (the clinton years being an aberration, raising taxes and cutting spending helped only because of the sudden tech bubble).
Anyway, i agree the govt should do some to help. I just think more in terms of conservative ideals. The investor class needs to have more spending power along with the govt implementing some jobs programs in dire cir stances.
Increasing the deficit will only seem to devalue the dollar, and alienate foreign investment, which this plan is neither helpful nor too overtly disctructive to the economy, it almost akin to drinking water to alleviate a stomach ache.
I mean if this president is supposed to be a cut above the previous, then he should raise expectations instead of lowering them you'd think.
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